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Elder Holland on Suicide


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I think @Stargazer is working from mostly intellectual understandings - which have a poor history of aligning with the realities of emotional and behavioral issues.

In short, we generally can't learn some info (or have an experience w/ some similarities) and use that to think our way to a helpful understanding of what people in pain experience. Lots of wrong roads taught me that.

 

Edited by Chum
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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Nor do I need to know them. Because I wasn't criticizing her thought processes. I wasn't criticizing her. I can completely relate to what she experienced, because it is something that I am beginning to feel myself in my own life's story. I was just stating my opinion that escape takes many forms, including escaping from the burden of being a burden, because that worries me in my own situation. And because of that, I can understand at least partly what she was going through way back when! Feel free to disagree, but my word, "taking a knife to shred" her vulnerability? I have done no such thing. 

I wasn't being critical of her thought processes, or denigrating her solutions. Her solutions were effective, and very workable. The results were admirable. You assume malign intent on my part, and for that I can only shrug my shoulders, because that was not my intent. If you are offended, I suggest that offense occurs in the mind of the person offended. 

No, I couldn't, and Jesus wasn't escaping, he was heading full-speed into peril for the best of reasons, the salvation of mankind. The man or woman who jumps onto a live hand grenade to save the lives of her or his fellows is not escaping, but sacrificing for the greater good. The mother cat who fights and dies to save her kittens from a predator is doing no less.

I wasn't dictating a single thing. I was simply saying that suicide for any reason is a form of escape. I am actually surprised that you don't see that.

And believe it or not, "escape" is not a pejorative, even in the case of suicide or suicidal thoughts. I completely understand and empathize with escape. 

You are being over the top emotionally abusive as well, Calm. To me. Blowing up like an atom bomb over what constitutes "escape". Why the heck do you think I stayed away from this place for 3 months?

I'm actually stunned at the mountain this apparent molehill has turned into.

You can’t completely relate, you didn’t experience her trauma. That’s insulting. 

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On 4/11/2022 at 11:25 AM, rodheadlee said:

Yes. I committed suicide once. I had the same mental anguish on the other side. 

 

22 hours ago, Rain said:

Are you sure it was snarky?  Rodheadlee has had an interesting life from what I can tell.  I'm not sure his answer was snarky.

 

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe Rod will clarify, but there is one long time member on the board who has talked of having a NDE that was very unpleasant.  I can’t remember who though or if they mentioned what the circumstances were, it may have been Rod.  That is where my mind went when I read his answer.

 

18 hours ago, gopher said:

He has told his story several times on this board so I don't believe he was being snarky.  He's one of the most interesting characters here.  I'm sure he'll return to clarify.

My apologies to @rodheadlee for misreading him. I do seem to recall him sharing a NDE. I'd make a note in my post, but don't appear to be able to edit it at this point.

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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52 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It wasn't a snarky answer. I've discussed this before here and I really don't want to go over it again. 

I died, went to the outer darkness. my mental anguish was greater than before. Then I was given a second chance. I was not a member of the church at the time, in fact I had yet to even hear of the church's existence. 

That's all I'm going to say. I really shouldn't post anything because no one understands me and twists my words. Good Bye. 

 

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

 

 

My apologies to @rodheadlee for misreading him. I do seem to recall him sharing a NDE. I'd make a note in my post, but don't appear to be able to edit it at this point.

I once again apologize for misreading your tone and making assumptions about your experience. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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I would ask us all to look behind Elder Holland's words and ask why is he addressing this subject?  There is a crisis among american youth today and it seems to hit LDS communities hard, it's youth suicide.  Elder Holland addressed it from his viewpoint with a lot of compassion.  Unfortunately, Elder Holland should have taken a suicide prevention course before he gave his talk.  While the words he used resonated with active believing members, quotes such as the original poster asked about are very damaging to those considering suicide.  Such a comment doesn't help anyone who is suicidal.  They need to hear you say I am here for you, please don't hurt yourself, I would miss you and I will just sit here an listen to you.  No expert would ever tell you to tell someone that suicide won't relieve the pain they are feeling.

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7 hours ago, SkyRock said:

I have experienced suicidal thoughts for almost 40 years.   Occasionally I have had a nearly overwhelming impulse, and I only didn't follow through at the time because I didn't think I would succeed.   

A couple years ago I was having the thought "you should kill yourself" come in 100 times a day.   These days it is once a week or less.   It has been about 7 years since I had an extremely strong impulse.   I have never attempted it.

Prayer and mindfulness meditation help a lot.

These thoughts do not come to me by my choice.   They do come when I am overwhelmed by life, so it seems.  

I will never judge anyone who attempts or succeeds at suicide.   I have had too many days where I struggled to make it to the next day.

Did you feel like doing it, or was it just the impulse? I ask, because I had a sister in a former ward (prominent, and her husband was very prominent) who had lived with voices constantly telling her to kill herself for decades. She told me that she didn't feel like doing it, though --- just that the voices were very real. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the prescribed medication made the voices go away completely --- but with (to her) even worse side effects. She chose/chooses to live with the voices because she wants to "remain herself" (she didn't feel like herself at all on the medication). She's not a threat to herself or her family or anyone else, but it is exhausting dealing with the voices. She was adamant that she recognizes that she doesn't feel suicidal or depressed --- she just hears voices that she knows aren't real (but are audibly indistinguishable from real voices). 

I can't imagine living with that **coupled with** suicidal feelings. 

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

Did you feel like doing it, or was it just the impulse? I ask, because I had a sister in a former ward (prominent, and her husband was very prominent) who had lived with voices constantly telling her to kill herself for decades. She told me that she didn't feel like doing it, though --- just that the voices were very real. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the prescribed medication made the voices go away completely --- but with (to her) even worse side effects. She chose/chooses to live with the voices because she wants to "remain herself" (she didn't feel like herself at all on the medication). She's not a threat to herself or her family or anyone else, but it is exhausting dealing with the voices. She was adamant that she recognizes that she doesn't feel suicidal or depressed --- she just hears voices that she knows aren't real (but are audibly indistinguishable from real voices). 

I can't imagine living with that **coupled with** suicidal feelings. 

My nephew is having these same issues, my sister just told me. He said he listens to a song and during it he'll hear voices or maybe the words backwards, but voices in his head. They are looking into what is going on. He's in his late twenties. 

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10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

It wasn't a snarky answer. I've discussed this before here and I really don't want to go over it again. 

I died, went to the outer darkness. my mental anguish was greater than before. Then I was given a second chance. I was not a member of the church at the time, in fact I had yet to even hear of the church's existence. 

That's all I'm going to say. I really shouldn't post anything because no one understands me and twists my words. Good Bye. 

I think I saw that once. I read that God showed it to many but quickly “shuts up” the vision so no one knows the full impact unless they go there.. I decided to ask for it. I am an idiot. I think I got it. I was terrified for a few weeks anyways. I don’t recommend the process. The dream I had where I thought I saw Zion in its fullness was nicer. Now the dreams where I am happy are the nightmares.

I have decided that fallen worlds and fallen flesh are both bad and I do not particularly care for them.

Edit: So I ended up being the only person available to help someone who is suicidal. This is getting tedious and repetitive.

If only there was some voluntary way to get off this planet and away from all these suicides……..

Wait a minute………

Edited by The Nehor
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13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

I once again apologize for misreading your tone and making assumptions about your experience. 

What he posted, without any context was a totally jerk thing to say. With context it looks different. It's not your fault for reading what he wrote sans context. If he's going to post something that requires some context, he should provide it and not get all indignant when we don't automatically surmise there must be additional context

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5 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

It probably made sense to him. I think with the gravity of the subject we should assume best intentions from long-time posters. Just my two-cents and easier said than done. Maybe it would be best to ask what someone means before jumping to conclusions. 

I need to get better at this myself.

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Quote

If he's going to post something that requires some context

But it didn’t. It was a simple question he replied to precisely and then explained his authority to give the answer. 

Quote

Will those that die by suicide continue to suffer after death?
 

Quote

Yes. I committed suicide once. I had the same mental anguish on the other side. 

You only get in trouble if you attempt to read something into it that isn’t there. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

No, it wasn’t.  I am surprised you view it that way. I get you see others and perhaps yourself as temporarily embarrassed or annoyed or at least made uncomfortable by what he said (or at least I am assuming that is why you feel he should have said more), but they are not the one trying to express a deeply personal and painful experience.  Is it being a jerk for someone with a painful broken leg not to come greet guests at the door and instead remain seated and require their guests let themselves in, something they may briefly feel very awkward about if they don’t do that at all.
 

He wasn’t trying to slap anyone down, insult anyone, there was nothing malicious in what he said. Instead, he was just trying to provide some information that was very relevant to the thread.  He was answered the question that was asked, provided a full answer in fact when you look at the question, imo  

He shared what he could in that moment.  He shared information no one else has personal access to, I believe he is the only poster who has shared such an experience, so he knew if he didn’t provide a firsthand account, there would be none.   So he made the effort.
 

Given the traumas that attach to such a painful and harrowing experience that may be triggered by different things, it doesn’t surprise me that sometimes a survivor can’t share as much as they may have at other times.  That he shared that much at this time, really all we needed, I see it as very generous myself. 

If he had used “attempted”, do you think your own and other’ responses would have looked at it in a closer fashion before assuming it was a joke and maybe then remembered additional things he had shared in the past or at least thought “it is Rod, this isn’t his kind of jokes” and ask for clarification?

I was thinking it was a shame he hadn’t used attempted because others might not have read it as a joke, but then it occurred to me that not only is it wrong to start dictating to survivors how they are allowed to discuss such an painful, threatening, personal, and lonely experience, but that my guess is “attempt” doesn’t come close to conveying how Rod views his actions at the time, so why should he be required to say something he doesn’t feel to avoid a few moments of discomfort others might feel?  Especially since this is a topic we should be uncomfortable with. Plus professionals in the field state “attempt” is the wrong way to describe suicide. They believe being as blunt as possible, no sugarcoating will help prevent future suicides. They want people to use “killed themselves”, so Rod did not take it as far as he could have.
 

“Attempt” softpedals what he did and therefore is not the best word choice to convey what he did and what happened.  He had a right and reason to say it that way.  As a survivor, it is up to him to judge what and how to share. 
 

I am very grateful Rod answered as he did. While it may not always be that way, I now trust that such pain can continue, death is not an escape or shortcut for healing. 
 

And yeah, not something I would say to most who are experiencing suicidal ideation, but there are many, many who are not experiencing such now, but will later in their life. And it may help a great deal if, before their thoughts start down that path, when they still have significant control over the directions their thoughts can go, if they are aware that it isn’t an escape so as to make even speculation about suicide less appealing.  Perhaps they will now never get on that path because they heard the talk or talk about the talk. 
 

And it may give parents and friends a push to be more active, more confident in the importance of trying if they are unsure of what to do and are afraid of doing something wrong.  If the pain will go on until it can be worked through somehow, why not start working now?  Why not invest money in mental health first rather than much lower on the list because of an attitude of it will all work out, so why bother?

Not everyone spend the amount on time on this forum as you do. And I doubt that anyone reads every thread and every post. So, not everyone read (or remembered, if they did happen to read) his previous posts on the subject, so - yes - without context, it can very much come across as an insensitive post. 
 

Context can be immensely helpful. 

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4 minutes ago, Rain said:

Context is definitely important.

What I read from what calm is saying though is there is nothing in his wording that implies insensitivity.  It is what we read into it that does. So while context can help those who read into it, those who don't read a hint into it won't need it.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't supply context.  I am often supplying context to my questions because people do ask rhetorical questions often with hints on insensitivity and its hard to know sometimes if someone is asking and honest question when people often ask loaded questions.

Years ago my husband and I learned about hint dropping and picking up. It has made communication so much easier between us and we don't have to supply context near as often because of it. We're both imperfect though so occasionally we will ask each other, "did you mean ____ because your tone sounds like ____ to me." And we reply back "I'm sorry.  It's been a rough day at work.  I meant _____ and I'm not angry about it." 

So in this world where we don't all have an agreement to say what we mean and not drop hints it is good to give context if we think it might be needed, but also assume others meant only what they said until we've had a chance to find out what the context is.

In this case, without context, the post came off as being insensitive to the subject of suicide.  I can understand how that could be the perception without context or mind- reading abilities. Especially when it involves an unusual or rare experience. 

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36 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

In this case, without context, the post came off as being insensitive to the subject of suicide.  I can understand how that could be the perception without context or mind- reading abilities. Especially when it involves an unusual or rare experience. 

I can understand that perception as well which is why I didn't get after seeking, but wondered openly if there was another possibility. But his post didn't come as insensitive - people read their experience of hearing things like that from insensitive people into his post. That's understandable.  I do it too. If we know we are doing it though it can help us better listen to others.

Edited by Rain
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