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Family proclamation founded on irrevocable doctrine: President Oaks


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33 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Then how can some on this forum believe that there might be a change on e the present incumbent is no longer there. 

Wishful thinking. They also point to the change of polygamy and the priesthood ban as being examples of things that have changed in the past. There are differences though.

There were MANY instances leading up to removal of the priesthood ban where prophets and apostles said that they would one day have the priesthood. There was also efforts made by leaders of the church to seek revelation on the removal of the ban long before Kimball officially removed it. It was just a sudden doctrinal change. It was a long contemplated change in Policy. Changing it also didn’t undermine our understanding of the plan of salvation, which allowing SSM would.

Plural marriage is a little more tricky. Early Leaders taught that plural marriage was essential for exaltation. We can get around this by explaining that we do still practice plural marriage, but only in the sense that if a man’s wife dies and he remarries, he will have two wives in the afterlife. Not a great answer, but it is the best I can come up with. Perhaps it can be chalked up to a misunderstanding or being overzealous in their declarations (after all, Brigham Young had only been a member of the church for 10 years before he was put in charge). The issue with this example is that it opens up the argument that our understanding of SSM and other LGBTQ issues are all “misunderstandings”. I know of no official statement that says spiritual sex is how spirit children are made, so theoretically SSM could fit in the plan.


And that is the core of the issue. The creation of spirit children, how is it done? I have heard and read many suggest that it is done in a similar way that we create life here (through sex). I have also seen the example of simply gathering intelligences together in outer darkness and putting them together in A way to create a spirit. These esoteric teachings will likely never be explained, but such explanations are essential if we are to really understand why SSM is not conducive with God’s law.

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12 minutes ago, Fether said:

Early Leaders taught that plural marriage was essential for exaltation.

At least acceptance of it, in some versions couples would not be required to live it, but would need to be willing to if called by God to do so.

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13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve seen Church leaders express that homosexual attraction will not persist in the hereafter. When they’ve done so, it has not been well received among some of their hearers, and thus, such “clarity” might not have the effect you anticipate that it would. So I would not blame them if, in the interest of not stirring up enmity, they generally refrained from expressing such teaching. 

11 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

If sexual orientation is not a choice, but an unchosen physical reaction, I don't see how it could be anything other than an element of the physical world. Outside of mortality, there will be neither gay nor straight; we will have only the sexual and spiritual attractions to those we choose to have them for, to act and not be acted upon.

I'll go a step further and suggest that any sexual attraction will not persist as anything relevant in the hereafter. The love in exalted societies transcends any of the physical imperatives of our mortal flesh. Resurrected and exalted beings will have complete mastery over their bodies. If there happiness had anything whatsoever to do with biochemistry, there would be nothing whatsoever from stopping them from keeping their body in a state of euphoric bliss--a bliss that would make the most amorous of physical encounters seem base and painful by comparison. The felicity of those in exalted societies transcends hormones, biology, and physical pleasure.

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10 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

Do you have anything to suggest other the the leaders are wrong?  Have you contemplated at all that they might be right and that just maybe there might be another answer?  Let’s just say hypothetically they are right and are teaching God’s eternal truth.  How can we move the conversation forward?  Let say God confirmed in your heart that The Proclamation was eternal doctrine but did not reveal more clarity with regards to LGBTQ concerns, how might you offer hope to them?

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6 minutes ago, jerryp48 said:

Do you have anything to suggest other the the leaders are wrong?  Have you contemplated at all that they might be right and that just maybe there might be another answer?  Let’s just say hypothetically they are right and are teaching God’s eternal truth.  How can we move the conversation forward?  Let say God confirmed in your heart that The Proclamation was eternal doctrine but did not reveal more clarity with regards to LGBTQ concerns, how might you offer hope to them?

I don't have the final answer but I can confidently testify that what the Church is teaching currently is wrong.  God and truth would never create the damage, hurt, broken lives and families that the current teachings create.  My human mind says maybe the other two levels in the Celestial kingdom are for gays and transgender individuals that live worthy lives of love, kindness and love of God.  Such individuals could have full membership and only not have a marriage performed in the temple.

 

10 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I agree with you on this and I’m so tired of trying to twist my mind to understand why our gay brothers and sisters who choose to follow their hearts and create a family with someone of the same sex cannot be accepted into the fold. If it is a mistake, which I don’t believe it is, then God can sort it out later. There will be plenty of sorting of heterosexual relationships that will need to be done in the hereafter, so they will be in good company. 

Kim, how do you stay in with all the stories you listen to from the LGBTQ community? 

I stay because only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do I find so many beliefs that ring true to me.  I will not allow beliefs that I see as false with no evidence of their truthfulness to keep me away from the truths I see plenty of evidence of their truthfulness.

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5 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I don't have the final answer but I can confidently testify that what the Church is teaching currently is wrong.  God and truth would never create the damage, hurt, broken lives and families that the current teachings create.  My human mind says maybe the other two levels in the Celestial kingdom are for gays and transgender individuals that live worthy lives of love, kindness and love of God.  Such individuals could have full membership and only not have a marriage performed in the temple.

 

I stay because only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do I find so many beliefs that ring true to me.  I will not allow beliefs that I see as false with no evidence of their truthfulness to keep me away from the truths I see plenty of evidence of their truthfulness.

Is one of these false beliefs that you decry, “with no evidence of their truthfulness,” the belief that two biological males and two biological females are incapable of having children, and that for this reason eternal marriage between people of the same sex makes no sense since the defining blessing and duty of eternal marriage is to have an eternal increase of children? If so, how do you suppose that members of the same sex will be able to have an eternal increase of children throughout eternity?

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23 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I don't have the final answer but I can confidently testify that what the Church is teaching currently is wrong.  God and truth would never create the damage, hurt, broken lives and families that the current teachings create.  My human mind says maybe the other two levels in the Celestial kingdom are for gays and transgender individuals that live worthy lives of love, kindness and love of God.  Such individuals could have full membership and only not have a marriage performed in the temple.

The old "my God wouldn't do that" trope.  Making God in our image.
 

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25 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

My human mind says maybe the other two levels in the Celestial kingdom are for gays and transgender individuals that live worthy lives of love, kindness and love of God.  Such individuals could have full membership and only not have a marriage performed in the temple.

You are describing exactly what the church teaches. The highest tier of the highest degree of glory is for the obedient that also become sealed. If you don’t become sealed, but are obedient, you will inherit a lower degree. 

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12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Is one of these false beliefs that you decry, “with no evidence of their truthfulness,” the belief that two biological males and two biological females are incapable of having children, and that for this reason eternal marriage between people of the same sex makes no sense since the defining blessing and duty of eternal marriage is to have an eternal increase of children? If so, how do you suppose that members of the same sex will be able to have an eternal increase of children throughout eternity?

How are spirit children made? What is the most authoritative and specific teaching you can find that answers this?

Edited by Fether
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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The old "my God wouldn't do that" trope.  Making God in our image.
 

I always try to remind myself that a god who only ever did stuff I agreed with or wanted would be a pretty horrible and worthless god.

If we really do believe that God’s ways are not our ways, then God always agreeing with us is a pretty huge red flag that something has gone off the rails somewhere.

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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What I sought to convey with this comparison is that the restored Church’s doctrine pertaining to marriage being between a man and a woman is so integral to the doctrinal structure of the Church that to renounce it would amount to  such a drastic alteration as to destroy the Church itself. It would no longer be the Church of Jesus Christ. 

It will be interesting to see if you do an about face when this inevitably happens (assuming you and I are both still around to see it).  The Church is always right isn't it?
However, I agree with you.  It would destroy the Church, and frankly represent an end to God's work.
 

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10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The old "my God wouldn't do that" trope.  Making God in our image.
 

Not unlike those who claim the prophets don't get things wrong, ie "My God wouldn't allow that."

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3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Not unlike those who claim the prophets don't get things wrong, ie "My God wouldn't allow that."

The Church and every active Latter-day Saint who understands the gospel would agree.

You have said nothing new nor anything worth debating. 

Edited by Fether
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10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

and that for this reason eternal marriage between people of the same sex makes no sense since the defining blessing and duty of eternal marriage is to have an eternal increase of children? If so, how do you suppose that members of the same sex will be able to have an eternal increase of children throughout eternity?

Have you ever considered that maybe billions of eternally existent non-biological spirits are not the product of a penis entering a vagina, ejaculating biological sperm, and inseminating biological eggs?

What does it even mean for a physical/biological body to become pregnant with non-physical unembodied spirits? How are those birthed?

Considering that nowhere in LDS canon (or official teachings) is it claimed that spirits are the result of sexual intercourse between two divine beings, why must it be assumed to be the case? If anything, LDS canon and tradition, including JS's sermons, point to spirits being eternally existent, with the parentage of God(s) being more akin to adoption than procreation. Given the nonsense in the idea of biological bodies producing spirit bodies in this way, the actually scriptural model being more adoptive, and the multitude of miraculous claims and notions of creation within LDS canon and tradition, surely Saints could easily imagine eternal and divine parentage that doesn't necessitate the exchange of bodily fluids during copulation.

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5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Why should anyone be “torn in different directions” of anguish when, in the very same address, President Oaks testified that those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of glory will enjoy states of sublime happiness that are far beyond anything the human mind can even begin to comprehend? In other words, gay members of the Church will receive a degree of salvation in the resurrection that’s perfectly designed to maximize their eternal peace happiness — so why all the despair?

Life in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom is reserved for sealed husbands and wives who desire to continue to have children in eternity;  and since, by very nature, it’s impossible for two men or two women to have children, what would be the reason for entering into a celestial marriage when the whole point of such a marriage is eternal increase? And further, if two men or two women want to spend eternity cohabitating with each other without the possibility of having offspring, it seems reasonable that they would be able to do so without a sealing ordinance being required.

In Elder Oaks’ presentation of life in eternity everyone ends up exactly where they want to be, so why all the heartbreak and despair when everything is going to end up being perfectly right, fair and just, with peace and great abiding happiness enjoyed by all save the sons of perdition. And since the only way a celestial same sex marriage could rendered properly functional would be if one member of the couple volunteered to be transformed into either a man or woman (so that they could have children) such a transformation would deprive the same sex couple of the choice to abide with each other forever.

So the question is this: what could be more loving and fair than to not require same sex attracted individuals to be eternally bound to a member of the opposite sex? This means the hurt feelings of which you speak are only being caused because many members fail to appreciate just how loving, fair and accommodating God’s great plan of salvation really is! The people of whom you speak are, in a manner of speaking, “perishing for lack knowledge” and would rather vent in anguish than to stop to appreciate just how wonderfully fair God’s plan of happiness really is. In the great plan of salvation that Elder Oaks outlined, the opportunities for the salvation of same sex attracted people are maximized. Therefore it’s only a failure to comprehend the knowledge and wisdom of God that’s causing all the angst.

But as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning, there will be many who will continue to be unnecessarily horrified and outraged because they rather enjoy beating down on the Church of Jesus Christ while basking in the “glory” their own ignorance-inspired self righteousness.

You are seriously wondering why people are not excited by a “separate but not equal” afterlife?

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1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I always try to remind myself that a god who only ever did stuff I agreed with or wanted would be a pretty horrible and worthless god.

If we really do believe that God’s ways are not our ways, then God always agreeing with us is a pretty huge red flag that something has gone off the rails somewhere.

As per my signature line - "I want God, not my idea of God."  - C.S. Lewis

That means both, as you say, being willing to acknowledge where you get it wrong.  It also means being willing to accept that in our fallen condition we may not actually like the reality of God.

Imagine for a minute, what if the gospel and God that was taught in the 19th century was actually correct?  What if a teaching that makes us uncomfortable is eternally true?
I am constantly told I need to accept that early leaders got it wrong on a lot of things and I need to accept changes that are made.  I may not be willing to let some things go right now but I also don't think I've received credible further light.

If I receive further light I'd like to think I'd be willing to accept things, no matter how uncomfortable the thought makes me.  But I'm human and I'd probably have challenges.  Just as many do with the idea there can only be eternal heterosexual families.
Just as many would if polygamy really was required.  Or many other teachings.
I think the important thing is that we are more concerned with conforming our lives to match God than expecting God to match our experiences here.

 

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8 minutes ago, Fether said:

The Church and every active Latter-day Saint who understands the gospel would agree.

You have said nothing new nor anything worth debating. 

You don't speak for the church and every active latter-day saints who understands the gospel.

But I do sort of agree that marginalizing same-sex relationships should be too low to require debate. Unfortunately some are still holding fast to it though.

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26 minutes ago, Fether said:

You are describing exactly what the church teaches. The highest tier of the highest degree of glory is for the obedient that also become sealed. If you don’t become sealed, but are obedient, you will inherit a lower degree. 

Don't forget the limitations that come with that.

"D&C 131:4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."

"D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."

 

Edited by JLHPROF
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13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are seriously wondering why people are not excited by a “separate but not equal” afterlife?

I'm seriously wondering why people think a revelation allowing sin will ever be given.

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