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Family proclamation founded on irrevocable doctrine: President Oaks


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On 4/10/2022 at 1:57 PM, teddyaware said:

Well then, you can finally stop worrying because the whole point of President Oaks’ talk is that everyone, except for the sons of perdition, will inherit a heavenly mansion in one of the three kingdoms of glory. He further went on to testify that life in even the lowest kingdom of heavenly glory will be incomprehensibly more wonderful than anything we mortals could possibly comprehend. I also anticipate that if you and your guy want to remain closest friends forever you’ll be able to do so (why not?), but without the possibility of the two of you procreating and having spirit children, which sacred duty can only be performed by eternally sealed and exalted husbands and wives. So in the Latter-Day Saint scheme of things you’ll be able to get exactly what you want. Your worries are over!

I never though I qualified as a son of perdition.   We were talking about Celestial Kingdom requirements.

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On 4/10/2022 at 3:19 PM, JLHPROF said:

Everyone would love exaltation.  Few are chosen.

But we teach that everyone wouldn’t love exaltation actually, that those in other kingdoms would be uncomfortable having such, couldn’t bear it.  

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11 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Our Heavenly Father is fair and loving. I stay in the church because it is where I find Him. He has been so good to me and I trust that He has a plan for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. In the mean time, I choose to be fair and loving. 

Like you, I also believe that our Heavenly Father is fair and loving.  I also choose to put all my faith in Him.  It is why I also chose to leave the Church.  I fully believe that it is not good for man to be alone.  My life is more spiritual and meaningful with a partner that I  love and can share this journey with in this life.  I don't believe in a God that forbids marriage.  We learn way too many experiences and lessons through a marriage relationship.  It seems to be a vital part of the Plan of Happiness.  For someone who is gay, that means a marriage with someone of the same sex.  If that is some kind of sin in the eyes of God, then I am more than happy to take whatever judgement He gives me.  And if that means no entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, then I doubt very much I would like a place that excludes me for loving my partner and wanting to share eternity with him.  

For members that have a son or daughter or father or mother or brother or sister, it is hard for them to not come to the same conclusion.  It is why LGBT issues are one of the leading causes people leave the Church.  They too have come to the same conclusion, especially when they see how much happier the person they love is in a healthy and loving relationship.  They put their trust in God and believe that "man is that he might have joy".  Part of that joy comes from a life with the person we love.  Certainly straight couples can see how important their love one is to their own happiness.  Just because you are gay does not mean you don't meed that happiness.

 

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57 minutes ago, california boy said:

Like you, I also believe that our Heavenly Father is fair and loving.  I also choose to put all my faith in Him.  It is why I also chose to leave the Church.  I fully believe that it is not good for man to be alone.  My life is more spiritual and meaningful with a partner that I  love and can share this journey with in this life.  I don't believe in a God that forbids marriage.  We learn way too many experiences and lessons through a marriage relationship.  It seems to be a vital part of the Plan of Happiness.  For someone who is gay, that means a marriage with someone of the same sex.  If that is some kind of sin in the eyes of God, then I am more than happy to take whatever judgement He gives me.  And if that means no entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, then I doubt very much I would like a place that excludes me for loving my partner and wanting to share eternity with him.  

For members that have a son or daughter or father or mother or brother or sister, it is hard for them to not come to the same conclusion.  It is why LGBT issues are one of the leading causes people leave the Church.  They too have come to the same conclusion, especially when they see how much happier the person they love is in a healthy and loving relationship.  They put their trust in God and believe that "man is that he might have joy".  Part of that joy comes from a life with the person we love.  Certainly straight couples can see how important their love one is to their own happiness.  Just because you are gay does not mean you don't meed that happiness.

 

That is ridiculous. I have been unmarried my whole life and look at how I turned out so……..oh……oh my.

Get married! MARRIAGE! DO IT!!!! DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Like you, I also believe that our Heavenly Father is fair and loving.  I also choose to put all my faith in Him.  It is why I also chose to leave the Church.  I fully believe that it is not good for man to be alone.  My life is more spiritual and meaningful with a partner that I  love and can share this journey with in this life.  I don't believe in a God that forbids marriage.  We learn way too many experiences and lessons through a marriage relationship.  It seems to be a vital part of the Plan of Happiness.  For someone who is gay, that means a marriage with someone of the same sex.  If that is some kind of sin in the eyes of God, then I am more than happy to take whatever judgement He gives me.  And if that means no entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, then I doubt very much I would like a place that excludes me for loving my partner and wanting to share eternity with him.  

For members that have a son or daughter or father or mother or brother or sister, it is hard for them to not come to the same conclusion.  It is why LGBT issues are one of the leading causes people leave the Church.  They too have come to the same conclusion, especially when they see how much happier the person they love is in a healthy and loving relationship.  They put their trust in God and believe that "man is that he might have joy".  Part of that joy comes from a life with the person we love.  Certainly straight couples can see how important their love one is to their own happiness.  Just because you are gay does not mean you don't meed that happiness.

 

Yes, one of the saddest Sunday school lessons I was in, the teacher read a scripture about eunuchs and basically said it was referring to gay people. I was just starting on my journey of enlightenment so I just sat there like everyone else. I hope now I would have the courage to speak up or walk out.

I don’t know you CB, but I’m so happy you’ve found the love of your life. I found my love late in life after one divorce and the death of my second husband (who was abusive). I was not sealed to my first husband, I got a cancellation of sealing after my second husband died and now I am happily sealed to my third husband. It’s interesting what is allowed and what isn’t. Our Heavenly Father is fair, but mortals are not. 
 

Oh, and my husband is sealed to his first wife (crazy woman) and to me. I have faith that God will figure the whole thing out. 

Edited by Peacefully
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12 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, one of the saddest Sunday school lessons I was in, the teacher read a scripture about eunuchs and basically said it was referring to gay people. I was just starting on my journey of enlightenment so I just sat there like everyone else. I hope now I would have the courage to speak up or walk out.

I don’t know you CB, but I’m so happy you’ve found the love of your life. I found my love late in life after one divorce and the death of my second husband (who was abusive). I was not sealed to my first husband, I got a cancellation of sealing after my second husband died and now I am happily sealed to my third husband. It’s interesting what is allowed and what isn’t. Our Heavenly Father is fair, but mortals are not. 
 

Oh, and my husband is sealed to his first wife (crazy woman) and to me. I have faith that God will figure the whole thing out. 

Sounds like an odd take on the “eunuchs for the kingdom’s sake” concept.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

But we teach that everyone wouldn’t love exaltation actually, that those in other kingdoms would be uncomfortable having such, couldn’t bear it.  

Yes, we do teach that.  So logically it would follow that if exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom requires an eternal heterosexual relationship that those who wouldn't want that couldn't bear it.

So asking if there's a place in the highest exaltation of heaven for those who don't want it seems unnecessary.  Yet it's continually asked.  It borders on nonsensical to ask if there's a place for those that wouldn't be comfortable or able to bear it.

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14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So logically it would follow that if exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom requires an eternal heterosexual relationship that those who wouldn't want that couldn't bear it.

Minor correction: there will be no heterosexual relationships in the Celestial Kingdom, just male/female ones. Heterosexuality, like all other man-made sexual 'orientations', has no place in any heaven, as clearly taught in Matthew 5:27-30, Alma 39:9, 3 Nephi 12:28-29, D&C 42:22-23, and D&C 63:16, amongst other passages.

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In my experience the degrees of glory seem most fair when I think I am going to qualify for one of the top levels.

Wow, that is well said!

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On 4/9/2022 at 8:14 AM, teddyaware said:

The scriptures clearly and powerfully testify that Christ, as God’s Firstborn in the In spirit and God’s Only Begotten Son in the flesh, has obtained the fulness of  exaltation in the highest degree of the three degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom. This is another way of saying that Christ, as the principle heir of God the Father, has obtained all of the powers, divine attributes, gifts, blessings and enjoyments possessed by God The Father. The scriptures further instruct us that the only way for a man to obtain the fulness of exaltation in the celestial kingdom is to be married to a woman for time and all eternity prior to being resurrected, and there are no exceptions to this irrevocable law. Of necessity, this means that the Christ was sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to a wife at some time prior to his resurrection.

 

Wow! This is quite a conclusion. I am trying to comment on it without asking a question. I guess this post indicates that it is the position of the LDS Church that Christ was indeed married prior to His resurrection. I don't think I have ever read that before in such a conclusive manner.

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On 4/9/2022 at 4:31 PM, CV75 said:

My goodness gracious. You said that the concept that "the Celestial Kingdom is ONLY for God's straight children" is problematic and I agreed, but now I realize evidently for different reasons than you. Simply put, gender does not equal sexual orientation. Marriage has gender requirements, not sexual orientation requirements. You seem to fall into the group you criticized, who believes that marriage can be "heterosexual" and "homosexual" (instead of same-sex marriage, which also has a gender, and not a sexual orientation, requirement). That is a major conflation and semantic problem.

For this reason, I still have the CFR that the Church says that marriage is based on sexual orientation (and not gender). You will not be able to find any references. 

I don't know anything about you and your partner, and I am not about to judge, especially so early in your path back to God.

If you are asking whether I think same-sex marriage is part of the order of the Celestial Kingdom, of course it is not. Jesus represents the Father, who begat Him through a covenant relationship or a marriage with Mary, so there is no other way for an eternal/divine/temple marriage for the children of God than to follow Jesus, who always points us to the Father's ways.

 

Trying to respond without asking a question. I did not know that the LDS church teaches that Christ was a product of a marital (covenantal) relationship between God the Father and Mary. That seems to me to be at odds with the NT concept of the overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit (a separate Person from the Father), thus creating the miracle baby - the incarnate Christ - fully God and fully man. The word  episkiazo (overshadow) is only used five times in the whole NT. Its use implies a miraculous presence of the Holy Spirit such as at the transfiguration, Peter's healings, and the like. Very interesting. I did not know this.

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On 4/10/2022 at 12:43 PM, CV75 said:

So do you also mean that gender is less essential for a couple's marriage covenant with God than sexual orientation?

You sure do ask a lot of questions! I am getting worried about you! Ha! 🙃

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On 4/11/2022 at 1:57 AM, mfbukowski said:

According to your personal ways of seeing things.

It seems to me that many comments or declarations made on this forum are someone's "personal way of seeing things!" I worry about correctly distinguishing between those personal ways of seeing things and what the LDS church really teaches.

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We have been promised that all those that follow the commandments will receive all the promised blessings in the end, which includes a fullness. No blessing will be denied for faithful people with LGBT feelings and they can receive a fullness of full as promised. Whether homosexuality will exist in the next life or not I do not know, I think it probably won’t, but I know we have all been promised happiness for faithful people so does it really matter? For now all we can do is live the gospel and the commandments.

The best thing we can do is to help LGBT people live the gospel and respect their struggles, fears and thoughts like with everyone else.

“Personal circumstances may change, and God’s plan assures that in the long run, the faithful who keep their covenants will have the opportunity to qualify for every promised blessing.” (Oaks, 2022).

 

Those Who Do Not Marry, (basically same sex people that follow the gospel)


President Lorenzo Snow

“There is no Latter-day Saint who dies after having lived a faithful life who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her. In other words, if a young man or a young woman has no opportunity of getting married, and they live faithful lives up to the time of their death, they will have all the blessings, exaltation, and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive” (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, 138).


Elder Richard G. Scott

If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. His prophets have stated that you will have that blessing as you consistently live to qualify for it” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1999, 33; or Ensign, May 1999, 27).

Edited by SwedishLDS
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9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

o asking if there's a place in the highest exaltation of heaven for those who don't want it seems unnecessary.  Yet it's continually asked.  It borders on nonsensical to ask if there's a place for those that wouldn't be comfortable or able to bear it.

Not really. In mortality, there is a huge difference in the experience of having the option to choose to close the door oneself and walk away and having the door locked and bolted against you…especially if you aren’t sure of what you want to do.

Plus the debate is over whether it really would be uncomfortable or not (if God accepts something as celestial, the CK is not uncomfortable).  You (and others) appear to be starting from a place of certainty while others protesting appear to see the discussion as open. Saying it’s nonsensical because it is settled in your mind doesn’t take into account the other’s position in that case.
 

 

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! This is quite a conclusion. I am trying to comment on it without asking a question. I guess this post indicates that it is the position of the LDS Church that Christ was indeed married prior to His resurrection. I don't think I have ever read that before in such a conclusive manner.

It’s the only possible conclusion. In Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, Christ himself makes it unmistakably clear that the only for a man way to obtain full exaltation in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom is for him to be married to a woman for time and all eternity prior his the resurrection. There is no way around this requirement if full exaltation is to be obtained. In fact, exaltation is synonymous with eternal marriage as they are one and the same. If Christ needed to submit to the ordinances of baptism and the gift if the Holy Ghost in order to be exalted, it’s sure as shooting that he also needed to be a recipient of the ordinance of eternal marriage as well. As our exemplar in all things pertaining to righteousness, Christ does not arrogantly violate his own firmly and irrevocably decreed laws.

Edited by teddyaware
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19 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s the only possible conclusion

When you have to tell others it is the only possible conclusion, it is a good sign it isn’t. 

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! This is quite a conclusion. I am trying to comment on it without asking a question. I guess this post indicates that it is the position of the LDS Church that Christ was indeed married prior to His resurrection. I don't think I have ever read that before in such a conclusive manner.

There is a reason you haven’t read that before in such a conclusive manner and it should give you pause before assuming it is the Church’s position. 

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

It seems to me that many comments or declarations made on this forum are someone's "personal way of seeing things!" I worry about correctly distinguishing between those personal ways of seeing things and what the LDS church really teaches.

Yes, there are many personal interpretations made here and it is correct to be cautious about assuming they have official status if they are shared not shared publicly as official doctrine even if shared by many members including leaders.

 It is inappropriate to assume the above is the position of the Church.  Leadership has been trying to remove some beliefs that not revealed in much of our materials. The approach is not consistently applied, but if you compare, for example, the current Gospel Principles manual with the former one, you will notice speculative beliefs, even if reasonable, are mostly removed. 

I would greatly prefer you asking questions rather than making such statements about our doctrine if it is not publicly declared by the Church (best source for these is the official website, not posters on this board).

From the website, rather than my brain:

Quote

What is the proper way to respond in a classroom setting to inquiries about sensational or questionable gospel subjects discussed in the news media, LDS popular press, or non-Church sanctioned symposia?

Quote

Some gospel subjects are sacred and should be spoken of not only with care but under proper conditions, in proper places, and, in some cases, by proper priesthood authorities. Regarding some gospel subjects, the Lord has revealed relatively little or has not answered certain related questions. Those with sincere questions the Lord has not yet chosen to answer need to exercise faith, knowing that at an appropriate time answers will be given. Until then, we need to broaden our gospel understanding through faith, study, and obedience.

Quote

Guided by the Spirit, a discerning gospel teacher can become sensitive to topics that are inappropriate to discuss in a classroom setting, such as: Does the Holy Ghost have a body? If not, when will he get one? Was Jesus married? What is the full sequence of events before and after the Millennium? Who will a child belong to if the parents are divorced and they each remarry?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1997/06/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

If the question “was Jesus married” is considered one of the above sensational or questionable gospel subjects, it is highly unlikely to have an official position besides “it has not yet been revealed to the Church”.

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Minor correction: there will be no heterosexual relationships in the Celestial Kingdom, just male/female ones. Heterosexuality, like all other man-made sexual 'orientations', has no place in any heaven, as clearly taught in Matthew 5:27-30, Alma 39:9, 3 Nephi 12:28-29, D&C 42:22-23, and D&C 63:16, amongst other passages.

Correct. Those scripture citations all are dealing with an aspect of the natural man. Jacob further taught in 2 Nephi 9 that at the resurrection our corruption will put on incorruption. We will no longer need to deal (or maybe completely subdued the natural man) with the “natural man”.

Edited by filovirus
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51 minutes ago, teddyaware said:
54 minutes ago, Calm said:

When you have to tell others it is the only possibly conclusion, it is a good sign it isn’t. 

In light of D&C 132, it’t the only possible correct conclusion. 

D&C 131: 1-3 makes it pretty obvious also.

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It is always amazing to me the number of pretzel twisting and speculation that come up when talking about the fate of LGBT children of God.  

Christ had to have been marrried

LGBT people can't marry

They won't be happy in the Celestial Kingdom anyway

They will want to be married to someone of the opposite sex when they die

There are other kingdoms that will be way ok for them that they will be happy in.

Unlike the rest of us, they won't really want to spend eternity with the person they love.

 

The list goes on.  Good to know that revelation exists so that these things can be clarified.  

 

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In my experience the degrees of glory seem most fair when I think I am going to qualify for one of the top levels.

You nailed it Nether.  As long as individuals  think they are going to qualify for one of the top levels  then this plan is PERFECT and according to what God really wants.  The rest of the world just has to conform to be like them because that is how God really wants everyone to be like.

 

 

 

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