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Abraham 3:4 and Albert Einstein


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In Abraham 3:4 is the Lord talking about the clocks running at different rates like Albert Einstein's theory of relativity.  Or is the Lord merely stating that the two planets rotate at different speeds, Kolob and the earth.

For those of you who do not know the Scripture the Lord says "one revolution [of Kolob] was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that where on thou [Abraham] standest."

I really do not know the answer. But I lean towards the clocks running at different rates.

Edited by Metis_LDS
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14 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

In Abraham 3:4 is the Lord talking about the clocks running at different rates like Albert Einstein's theory of relativity.  Or is the Lord merely stating that the two planets rotate at different speeds, Kolob and the earth.

For those of you who do not know the Scripture the Lord says "one revolution [of Kolob] was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that where on thou [Abraham] standest."

I really do not know the answer. But I lean towards the clocks running at different rates.

Contrary to common belief, Abraham invented daylight savings time, and its revocation is a sign of the times, a fall back into apostasy.

Also, the meaning of "Abraham" ("father of many nations") is pretty much the same as "Albert" ("noble, bright, famous"), but who's counting? I mean, who's reckoning?

 

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1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

really do not know the answer. But I lean towards the clocks running at different rates

Whatever is going on, it can’t be Einstein’s ToR as there would not be a way to communicate effectively between the two as far as I am aware…unless there is something out there that is not affected by gravity that could be used to transmit messages without being affected itself by gravitational time dilation.

If only one year has passed on a planet on the edge of a black hole while a thousand years has passed on earth, that planet is essentially 999 years behind us at the end of that time living their life in slow motion.

If the clocks are running at different rates, is God’s the fast or slow one?  If slow, how is he able to be fully aware of the faster life around him and to respond in a timely manner?  He only has one hour to do everything he needs to do in order to provide guidance, etc. in while those on earth have a thousand years to get into mischief, etc.  Ignoring the problem of communicating continuously between the two different times, think of it as he has one hour to answer one thousand hours of prayers…I suppose it might work if God could accomplish things at least 1000 times faster than we do, including thought.

Edited by Calm
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It probably depends entirely on what kind of "thing" we think Kolob is. When I've looked into the possibility that this scripture is referring to time dilation, I have found that, the densest "visible" objects (not black holes or other) are neutron stars, and their time dilation factor is on the order of 25% (8 years on the star is 10 years on Earth)*. 1 day to 1000 years is a dilation factor of 500k.

If it refers to differences in rotation speed, I note that the rotation period of typical main sequence stars (like our sun) is typically measured in days (so they are rotating a bit slower than we are). More exotic objects (like neutron stars) can rotate very fast (wikipedia suggests that neutron star rotations are measured in seconds). If I did my calculation right, something that rotates 365000 times in the same time as our earth completes one rotation "day", would rotate once every 1/4 second -- so something like a neutron star.

I'm not a particular fan of "concordism" (the belief that what scripture says can/must somehow map onto our understandings of science and cosmology). In this case, if I must assume something concordist about the 1 year for us is 1000 years for God, I end up with the basic conclusions that God's dwelling place is a pretty exotic kind of object. Perhaps Abraham did not know any better (because a star was a star was a star as far as he was concerned), but it seems pretty loose and careless to call Kolob or God's dwelling place a "star" if it has these kinds of properties.

Wikipedia for neutron stars where they give the 8:10 time dilation estimation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star#Gravity_and_equation_of_state

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Unless I am misunderstanding the question, it doesn't seem that complicated to me.  A day is the length of time it takes for a planet to rotate once.  For example, a day on Mars is 37 minutes than a day on Earth.  It sounds like it takes a thousand earth years for Kolob to rotate once. 

Well could be or it could be a clock difference, GPS sats have to a time correction because they are affected by this clock difference.

They have flown atomic clocks in airplanes many times and then they disagree with those on the earth.

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21 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Well could be or it could be a clock difference, GPS sats have to a time correction because they are affected by this clock difference.

They have flown atomic clocks in airplanes many times and then they disagree with those on the earth.

I like MrShorty's answer better (didn't read it before posting), so I deleted mine.  

Time dilation is a topic that is too over my heard to comment on intelligently.  But I will read with curiosity. 

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

I like MrShorty's answer better (didn't read it before posting), so I deleted mine.  

Time dilation is a topic that is too over my heard to comment on intelligently.  But I will read with curiosity. 

Amén.  For folks like me who think string theory is taught in music class, commenting on this thread would be dangerous indeed.

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15 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Amén.  For folks like me who think string theory is taught in music class, commenting on this thread would be dangerous indeed.

Music of the spheres, man. It is all relative. 

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19 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

In Abraham 3:4 is the Lord talking about the clocks running at different rates like Albert Einstein's theory of relativity.  Or is the Lord merely stating that the two planets rotate at different speeds, Kolob and the earth.

For those of you who do not know the Scripture the Lord says "one revolution [of Kolob] was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that where on thou [Abraham] standest."

I really do not know the answer. But I lean towards the clocks running at different rates.

Abraham 3:9‑10, 16, and fac 2:1 say that Kolob, the greatest of the stars (Hebrew Hakokaubeam), signifies "the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God," that Kolob is "[f]irst in government," and "the last pertaining to the measurement of time," which means "one day to a cubit" (= thousand years in Earth time) in "celestial time," which, according to facsimile 2:2, 4, is the same time‑reckoning as at Oliblish and at God's throne/ residence.

Where would one celestial day pass while a thousand years passed here on Earth?  What principle would allow time to be so relatively slow there and so fast here, or vice-versa? Physics (astrophysics) has the time‑dilation principle of Einsteinian mechanics at very high speeds?[1] And time was in fact measured in cubits in the ancient Near East.

One may  account for that time differential via the Lorentz‑Fitzgerald contraction of time in Einsteinian mechanics (his Special Theory of Relativity).  

One of the principles apparently employed by Abraham at Book of Abraham 3:6 ("set time") was the Old Babylonian concept of adānu, adannu "set time, appointed time, period" (ATRA‑ḪASIS W, 5; DT 42), for which the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary discerns two basic applications: 

(1) "moment in time at end of period," and

(2) "a period of time of predetermined length or characterized by a sequence of events,"  often being used for seasons, cycles, and astronomical periods.[2]

Another concept of prime importance here (Book of Abraham facsimile 2:1 "one day to a cubit") is the Mesopotamian "cubit": Sumerian KÙŠ and Akkadian ammatum mean "2° of arc; 49.5 ‑ 55 cm (linear cubit)."[3]  In a cuneiform text from ancient Boghazköy, Anatolia, we read "when the day has 'turned' two cubits."[4] Indeed, Marvin A. Powell has noted how the Sumero‑Akkadian cubit was used "in the calculation of celestial distances" as late as the Seleucid period.[5]

[1] See Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation .

[2] a‑da‑nu, UD.BA, CAD "A" I:97‑101, citing Bab. 6, 99:9; cf. J. Black, et al., eds., A Concise Dictionary of Akkadian (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2000), 4.

[3] Chicago Assyrian Dictionary, "A" I:74 (i), citing F. X. Kubler, Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, II:547ff., and Thureau‑Dangin, Revue d'Assyríologie et d'Archéologie Orientale, 28:23ff.

[4] UD‑MU EGIR‑pa 2 AM‑MA‑TI wa‑a‑zi, CAD "A" I:74 (j), citing Kammenhuber, Hippologica Hethitica, 270‑271: 56 i 49, 92 iii 4, and 100 iv 18.

[5] Powell, Reallexikon der Assyriologie, VII:458, citing JCS, 21 (1969), 201:17‑20, adding variously: "Noteworthy is the antiquity and stability of the linkage between the square of the nindan‑rod ('I.2h) and the area system as the basis of plane geometrical calculation." Moreover, "in the Akkad‑Ur III period, . . length measures were defined to relate systematically to area, volume, capacity, and perhaps to weight (M. A. Powell, Archiv für Orientforschung 31 [1984]:46)," i.e., systems were well-integrated.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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10 hours ago, Calm said:

Whatever is going on, it can’t be Einstein’s ToR as there would not be a way to communicate effectively between the two as far as I am aware…unless there is something out there that is not affected by gravity that could be used to transmit messages without being affected itself by gravitational time dilation........................

I saw a cute film on the theme of an advanced set of aliens visiting Earth using a "quantum leap" method.  

Go to 1:21:00 for the Einsteinian stuff.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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9 hours ago, pogi said:

Nevermind

Yep. No point.

Sigh. When will it ever end?

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It would be interesting if someone who has the talent and time to search if there are any another time dilation serious entries in other literature before the Book of Abraham was first published.

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Abraham would have no idea about the ideas of time dilation or any such thing. I side with Gee, Hamblin, and Peterson that Abraham's description was a purely geocentric description.
https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/and-i-saw-stars-book-abraham-and-ancient-geocentric-astronomy

The stars resolve around the earth approximately every 23 hours and 56 minutes. However, that isn't precisely true. The proper motion of stars does change that ever so slightly for different stars. I find it much more likely that Abraham saw a star with some proper motion and if he extrapolated its behavior it'd take some 1000 years to cycle around the celestial sphere 360°.

Edited by Nofear
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When I first thought of posting this here, I was reluctant because I thought perhaps it would be a thread derail.  However, after reading the thread, now, I think it might have some relevance.  With the caveats that neither Brother Lund nor I am a scientist, a temporal physicist, whatever have you, the other day in my studies, I encountered this:

From my notes on Chapter 6, "It is Nigh, Even at the Doors" of The Second Coming of the Lord, by Brother Gerald N. Lund:

Quote

 

d. “All Things Are Present” – God is “‘the same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes’ (D&C 38:1-2).”

i. “Present” – “Present” = Location: Here? “Present” = Time: Now? Both?

ii. Albert Einstein Proposed a Similar Idea as Part of His Theory of Relativity – “[I]t is interesting that Albert Einstein proposed a similar idea in his theory of relativity. He said that as a person begins to accelerate until he or she approaches the speed of light, two things happen. All space begins to contract until it becomes “here” to that person, and all time begins to contract until it becomes “now” to that person. Trying to comprehend how that is possible is enough to give us a headache, but physicists have confirmed Einstein’s theory. And that seems to confirm what the scriptures teach us about God and time.” Initial bracketed capital added.

 

 

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On 3/25/2022 at 2:07 PM, Metis_LDS said:

In Abraham 3:4 is the Lord talking about the clocks running at different rates like Albert Einstein's theory of relativity.  Or is the Lord merely stating that the two planets rotate at different speeds, Kolob and the earth.

For those of you who do not know the Scripture the Lord says "one revolution [of Kolob] was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that where on thou [Abraham] standest."

I really do not know the answer. But I lean towards the clocks running at different rates.

Verse 5:

And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.
 

This seems to say that the moons time would be reckoned more slowly than time on the earth. This contradicts relativity. Since the gravitational field of the moon is much weaker than on earth’s surface, a clock on the moon will appear to tick more quickly than a clock on the surface of the earth. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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Trying to prove scripture with science doesn't work.

:)

 

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On 3/28/2022 at 3:03 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Verse 5:

And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.
 

This seems to say that the moons time would be reckoned more slowly than time on the earth. This contradicts relativity. Since the gravitational field of the moon is much weaker than on earth’s surface, a clock on the moon will appear to tick more quickly than a clock on the surface of the earth. 

The time it takes the sun to return to the same spot in the sky: 24 hours.
The time it takes stars to return to the same spot in the sky: about 23 hours 56 minutes.
The time it takes the moon to return to the same spot in the sky: about 24 hours 50 minutes.
The time it takes the planets to return to the same spot in the sky: changes - sometimes <24 hours, sometimes >24 hours - confused the heck out of the Greeks

Abraham could understand that. Gravitational time dilation ... not so much. Heck, gravity wasn't even a concept he even knew to think about.

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On 3/25/2022 at 4:07 PM, Metis_LDS said:

I really do not know the answer

I also don't know the answer but the book title The Kolob Theorem is insightful on this topic. 

Also if one postulates that the Savior will return to earth and the 1,000 earth years / 1 Kolob Day / Millennium will occur on what would be the 7th day or the Sabbath Day in Kolob, seems to me the verse on Abraham refers to the different planets' rotation times or the clocks. 

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On 3/25/2022 at 2:04 PM, MrShorty said:

It probably depends entirely on what kind of "thing" we think Kolob is. When I've looked into the possibility that this scripture is referring to time dilation, I have found that, the densest "visible" objects (not black holes or other) are neutron stars, and their time dilation factor is on the order of 25% (8 years on the star is 10 years on Earth)*. 1 day to 1000 years is a dilation factor of 500k.

We really need to "get over" the obstacle of thinking any person or culture sees thing "as they really are"

Yes different systems work better than others but we still see only the workings of the human mind in creating worlds, as seen through a glass darkly. We look out and can only see ourselves in a dark mirror,  looking back.

We don't see "the world" we only see human perceptions making theories about the world.

Edited by mfbukowski
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