September Dawn - The Soundtrack - Not the Movie

[Navidad]

I wonder how many of you are familiar with the soundtrack to the movie September Dawn? First, I didn't like the movie - stereotypical and basically dumb in my opinion. So let's set that aside for a moment. Because of my interest in LDS history I bought it and watched it four or five times. About the third time I began to listen closely to the music. Haunting melodies seemed to frame each section of the movie. I was hooked. I then found a soundtrack for the movie. I bought it. I was hooked more deeply . . . and still am! I wrote three books, most of a dissertation, and about a dozen articles while listening to that soundtrack. I bought better computer speakers to hear it more completely!  I find it to be the perfect writing music. Are any of you familiar with the music? It is available everywhere digitally. Do any of you have favorite music to write and research by? If so, does any of it have an LDS connection for you? Thanks.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I wonder how many of you are familiar with the soundtrack to the movie September Dawn? First, I didn't like the movie - stereotypical and basically dumb in my opinion. So let's set that aside for a moment. Because of my interest in LDS history I bought it and watched it four or five times. About the third time I began to listen closely to the music. Haunting melodies seemed to frame each section of the movie. I was hooked. I then found a soundtrack for the movie. I bought it. I was hooked more deeply . . . and still am! I wrote three books, most of a dissertation, and about a dozen articles while listening to that soundtrack. I bought better computer speakers to hear it more completely!  I find it to be the perfect writing music. Are any of you familiar with the music? It is available everywhere digitally. Do any of you have favorite music to write and research by? If so, does any of it have an LDS connection for you? Thanks.

For my part, I’ll have nothing to do with the movie or anything associated therewith. 

[Navidad]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For my part, I’ll have nothing to do with the movie or anything associated therewith. 

Wow! OK! I meant no offense. I didn't like the movie either!

[LoudmouthMormon]

18 hours ago, Navidad said:

Do any of you have favorite music to write and research by? If so, does any of it have an LDS connection for you? Thanks.

Heh - believe it or not, the soundtrack to Kubrick's Clockwork Orange held a similar place with me back in my college days in the '80's.   Lots of Beethoven.

[caspianrex]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! OK! I meant no offense. I didn't like the movie either!

I have not seen the film, but I have to agree with @Navidad, the music is quite lovely. I'm listening to it now on headphones, and it's gorgeous.

 

[Kenngo1969]

Heh.  This reminds me of how Hollow-weird, aka Hollywood, really works!  (And before anybody asks, no, I'm not saying this because I have taken offense at anything else said on this thread, I don't care what anyone thought of the movie ... even if he or she thought it was one of the finest motion pictures ever made, a cinematic tour de force, or, on the other hand, if he or she thought it was pure dreck, ad infinitum: It's simply a general observation).  This reminds me of how easily someone could be manipulated (and no, I'm not saying anyone here has fallen prey to manipulation, either, OK?).  Awful movie, but great music!  I hear (but have no first-hand knowledge: haven't seen the movie, don't plan to) that the writing and the acting were ... well, let's just say that, apparently, they were not on par with the music ...

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! OK! I meant no offense. I didn't like the movie either!

It’s not just a matter of taste. I believe the movie played up lies and sensationalism. 

[Navidad]

52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not just a matter of taste. I believe the movie played up lies and sensationalism. 

OK. I grant you all of that. I simply like the music! No more or less!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Heh.  This reminds me of how Hollow-weird, aka Hollywood, really works!  (And before anybody asks, no, I'm not saying this because I have taken offense at anything else said on this thread, I don't care what anyone thought of the movie ... even if he or she thought it was one of the finest motion pictures ever made, a cinematic tour de force, or, on the other hand, if he or she thought it was pure dreck, ad infinitum: It's simply a general observation).  This reminds me of how easily someone could be manipulated (and no, I'm not saying anyone here has fallen prey to manipulation, either, OK?).  Awful movie, but great music!  I hear (but have no first-hand knowledge: haven't seen the movie, don't plan to) that the writing and the acting were ... well, let's just say that, apparently, they were not on par with the music ...

How is this manipulation?

[Calm]

I am guessing Ken means music is capable of creating emotions in us that we then assume the writing/acting is creating, including feeling positive or negative about things when it is just the music we are feeling.
 

 I hate shows and commercials that go all soapy music to trigger sadness, etc.  It is really annoying to have my eyes water up while I am actually bored with what is happening or the actors have actually no emotional connection at all. 
 

Thankfully, gone are the days of limited choice though I always had the option of reading a good book. But if I wanted to watch something with my kids back in the day, the touching moments in kids’ programming…it was embarrassing to be crying. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am guessing Ken means music is capable of creating emotions in us that we then assume the writing/acting is creating, including feeling positive or negative about things when it is just the music we are feeling.
 

 I hate shows and commercials that go all soapy music to trigger sadness, etc.  It is really annoying to have my eyes water up while I am actually bored with what is happening or the actors have actually no emotional connection at all. 
 

Thankfully, gone are the days of limited choice though I always had the option of reading a good book. But if I wanted to watch something with my kids back in the day, the touching moments in kids’ programming…it was embarrassing to be crying. 

Ah, that music can create an emotional resonance with what is onscreen.

The reason I believe that the Smurfs walk amongst us disguised. Which they definitely do.

[Scott Lloyd]

The notion of only watching a bad or malevolent movie to enjoy the music seems to be the reverse counterpart of the cliché rationalization that one only looks at Playboy magazine to read the articles. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:16 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

For my part, I’ll have nothing to do with the movie or anything associated therewith. 

I just realized this is a bit of an overstatement, as I do enjoy Jon Voight in other acting roles (“Deliverance,” “The Rainmaker,” “National Treasure”), and I admire him as a person. 
 

Were one to take my assertion to its absurd extreme, I would have to reject all of Ron Howard’s past work (including “The Andy Griffith Show,” “Happy Days,” “Apollo 13”) because I resent his executive role with “Under the Banner of Heaven”. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The notion of only watching a bad or malevolent movie to enjoy the music seems to be the reverse counterpart of the cliché rationalization that one only looks at Playboy magazine to read the articles. 

But he saw the movie once and never saw it again and just listened to the soundtrack. That is like buying a text-only version of Playboy suggesting that you genuinely do only want to read the articles.

Edited March 20, 2022 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I just realized this is a bit of an overstatement, as I do enjoy Jon Voight in other acting roles (“Deliverance,” “The Rainmaker,” “National Treasure”), and I admire him as a person. 

Gross.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Gross.

No accounting for taste, I suppose.
 

Which is why I regard arguing over preferences in art or entertainment to be a waste of time and ultimately unproductive. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But he saw the movie once and never saw it again and just listened to the soundtrack. That is like buying a text-only version of Playboy suggesting that you genuinely do only want to read the articles.

Buying the text-only version has the effect of supporting the magazine, even if only in a peripheral way, in its purveyance  of that with which I disapprove, i.e. pornography. And supporting and promoting the soundtrack arguably promotes the movie, of which I also disapprove. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[LoudmouthMormon]

I’m related news, I just watched a black stand up comedian from a few years back, relate a story about growing up in the Deep South.  His white friend Jacob was invited to a barbecue, it turned out to be an klan rally.  Jacob felt pressured to stay, because he had already eaten the free food, they apparently had delicious ribs.  Jacob came home, called his black friend over, and they talked about it.  He looked past Jacob into his kitchen, and saw the to-go box.

”Jacob, are those klan ribs?”

”Yes.”

”Can I have some?”

It turns out, the klan in that state have some really good barbecue.  Great sauce, delicious!  The rest of the story was about the black comedian’s internal struggle on suggesting his white friend go to a 2nd rally, so they could get some more of those good ribs.

Of course September Dawn was a horrible movie that played up lies and sensationalism.   Apparently it had a good soundtrack. There should be no problem here.

Whenever the Jehovah’s Witnesses come by for a visit, I always compliment them on the artwork of their Watchtower tracts.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, draws a Whore of Babylon riding the multiheaded dragon beast thing, as well as the JW’s!

From where I’m standing, we lose nothing when we admit there is something to admire in our enemies.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Buying the text-only version has the effect of supporting the magazine, even if only in a peripheral way, in its purveyance  of that with which I disapprove, i.e. pornography.

I’m about 80% in agreement here.  The other 20% gets to grin and chuckle when the church bought advertising space in the playbook for the Southpark folks’ Book of Mormon movie, paying for an ad that said “You’ve watched the movie, now read the book”.

[Emily]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But he saw the movie once and never saw it again and just listened to the soundtrack. That is like buying a text-only version of Playboy suggesting

Short of brain trauma, the mind doesn't really ever forget anything. A memory just gets buried when you don't have something refreshing the path to that memory.

Metaphorically, it's like a path through a forest to water hole. If an animal walks the path frequently, the path stays clear and the water (memory) is easy to access. If, however, a particular water hole is tainted, a wise animal will seek a new path to a better water hole. And the old path will become choked with ferns and trees and bushes and reaching the water hole/memory will become very difficult.

This can be a good thing, there is less chance of stumbling into a tainted water hole if the path to it is obscured.

Seeing a movie, even once, means the music from the movie is tied into the images and dialogue of the movie. Every time you listen to the music, you inevitably revisit the movie. It can't be completely avoided. The path to that particular tainted water hole is refreshed, and the next time the Mountain Meadows Massacre comes up in a class or discussion, the movie's version of the incident will come strongly to mind, influencing thoughts on the subject in subtle ways.

Now, it's possible to use that old path to access a different water hole, a quick left turn to a nearby but less unpleasant source of water. (Like the memory of several successful writing sessions occurring with the music in the background.) That could change the memories the music invokes, refreshing different paths, and allowing the movie association to become properly buried.

But I think it would be a good idea to fill in the tainted water hole as well. Read up thoroughly on all the research on the tragedy and it's aftermath, apologetic as well as more neutral treatments in order to dilute the apparently antagonistic and sensationalized version presented by the movie.  That way, if the music leads inadvertently toward the tainted water, you've got the option of drinking from more than one source.

In my case, I'm quite happy I've never seen the music. I can go listen to it now with no association at all, except possibly with this discussion... And "klan ribs." 😄

 

 

 

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I just realized this is a bit of an overstatement, as I do enjoy Jon Voight in other acting roles (“Deliverance,” “The Rainmaker,” “National Treasure”), and I admire him as a person. 
 

Were one to take my assertion to its absurd extreme, I would have to reject all of Ron Howard’s past work (including “The Andy Griffith Show,” “Happy Days,” “Apollo 13”) because I resent his executive role with “Under the Banner of Heaven”. 

Thanks for this afterthought. BTW I haven't watched the movie in many years, nor would I be interested in doing so. I listen to the music almost every day while I write, without giving the least consideration to its connection to the movie or the merits of the movie, of which there are precious few!

[Orthodox Christian]

What is this movie about?

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, Emily said:

Short of brain trauma, the mind doesn't really ever forget anything. A memory just gets buried when you don't have something refreshing the path to that memory.

Metaphorically, it's like a path through a forest to water hole. If an animal walks the path frequently, the path stays clear and the water (memory) is easy to access. If, however, a particular water hole is tainted, a wise animal will seek a new path to a better water hole. And the old path will become choked with ferns and trees and bushes and reaching the water hole/memory will become very difficult.

This can be a good thing, there is less chance of stumbling into a tainted water hole if the path to it is obscured.

Seeing a movie, even once, means the music from the movie is tied into the images and dialogue of the movie. Every time you listen to the music, you inevitably revisit the movie. It can't be completely avoided. The path to that particular tainted water hole is refreshed, and the next time the Mountain Meadows Massacre comes up in a class or discussion, the movie's version of the incident will come strongly to mind, influencing thoughts on the subject in subtle ways.

Now, it's possible to use that old path to access a different water hole, a quick left turn to a nearby but less unpleasant source of water. (Like the memory of several successful writing sessions occurring with the music in the background.) That could change the memories the music invokes, refreshing different paths, and allowing the movie association to become properly buried.

But I think it would be a good idea to fill in the tainted water hole as well. Read up thoroughly on all the research on the tragedy and it's aftermath, apologetic as well as more neutral treatments in order to dilute the apparently antagonistic and sensationalized version presented by the movie.  That way, if the music leads inadvertently toward the tainted water, you've got the option of drinking from more than one source.

In my case, I'm quite happy I've never seen the music. I can go listen to it now with no association at all, except possibly with this discussion... And "klan ribs." 😄

 

 

 

The only tapes that my mind plays of the movie is that the acting was terrible, the plot was silly, and it was historical fiction with the emphasis on fiction. As a historian, I find lots of issues with lots of historical fiction. Some btw, are wonderfully done. I couldn't relate one song on the soundtrack to one scene in the movie. I can hardly remember one scene in the movie.

At the same time I have a great interest in MMM which is why I watched the movie those many years ago in spite of the horrible reviews by virtually everyone. I have a significant library of books and articles on MMM, many of which are quite insightful regardless of their take on the event. I have been to the site on a number of occasions. Back in 1988 my first trip there triggered my interest in studying all things LDS-related. In a sense it is why I am here. Until I took a wrong turn on a small highway north of St George near Pine Valley, I had never heard of MMM. I now use it in my lectures and writing on dogma, duty, and religion as conflict, as I do the European Shepherd's Crusades, the Illorin Wars of the 1830s, the Cristero Wars, along with many other examples both modern and ancient, most of which I probably wrote while listening to the soundtrack.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

What is this movie about?

Mountain Meadow Massacre…a tragic and shameful incident in Mormon and American pioneer history….but the movie isn’t truthful though it claims to be.  The best resource on it imo is though it doesn't cover the aftermath (the volume has been delayed, hopefully not forever).

https://www.amazon.com/Massacre-Mountain-Meadows-American-Tragedy-ebook/dp/B004JU1WJ0
 

A collection of resources on it is here, from the Church’s bias of course:

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?

If you are interested, perhaps Navidad can direct you to the best nonChurch member effort for a different perspective.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Calm

[Navidad]

27 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

What is this movie about?

I won't and don't promote the movie. It is about MMM and is, as I remember horrible on several accounts. It is possible to buy the soundtrack separate from and without ever watching the movie. If I were to recommend anything, that would be what I would recommend and promote. I couldn't even tell you who wrote the music, let alone who wrote or directed the movie. Since high school I have enjoyed and listened to the music of St. Saens. I couldn't tell you one single thing about him (or her).

When I was in seminary (graduate school)  in Ft Worth in the very early 1970s I applied for and was hired to work in a funeral home. I soon earned extra money singing and preaching at funerals, especially if for some reason the person who was supposed to do that didn't show. I also became a licensed apprentice embalmer. My boss in that role invariably listened to country western music while performing that task. Being from a Mennonite background in Pennsylvania, I had never heard country western music. I will admit that once in a while to this day if I hear country western music from the 1970s my mind does drift back to some of those memories, obviously some of which were necessary, but not pleasant! So, the mind is indeed an interesting construct, the non-physical repository of our memory tapes. I am also very interested in the soul as the repository of the mind, will, and emotions - separate from the spirit. OK . . . enough meanderings! Best wishes to all.