The Famous or the Infamous Dead

[Metis_LDS]

Something I ponder at times is:

How are the famous or infamous dead protected or not in the next life from being harassed.

So a leader that started a war (no politics please, do not name anyone living)

how will it be prevented or not from thousands of resurrected persons showing up at the door to complain.

Same for the just famous or famous good persons never being left alone.

I have some ideas,  nothing that can be proven and will try to post some as the thread progresses.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Metis_LDS
grammar

[Hamba Tuhan]

In the end, all but those who opt for perdition will have sincerely repented and been fully redeemed through the shed blood of Christ. At which point, I suspect, we'll all be over it.

[Metis_LDS]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the end, all but those who opt for perdition will have sincerely repented and been fully redeemed through the shed blood of Christ. At which point, I suspect, we'll all be over it.

Thanks, I was only referring to persons in Kingdoms 1, 2, and 3.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Metis_LDS said:

Thanks, I was only referring to persons in Kingdoms 1, 2, and 3.

Same. I strongly suspect that redemption significantly shifts previous mortal perspectives. It will certainly heal us of, for example, vengeance and covetousness. We will be in the presence of God and know each other for who we really are.

[InCognitus]

I suspect the law of Matthew 6:15 will keep people from pestering the bad people:

Mat 6:15  "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, InCognitus said:

I suspect the law of Matthew 6:15 will keep people from pestering the bad people:

Yep. Having a 'perfect knowledge of all our guilt' will help us see that we are all the bad people. Our abiding gratitude for the miracle of our own undeserved redemption will help us to rejoice in the miraculous redemption of all others.

[strappinglad]

On a similar vein , with the recent loss of so many comedians , I was wondering if they would still be giving performances in the spirit world ? ( they for sure have to work ' clean ' of course ! )

[Metis_LDS]

17 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I suspect the law of Matthew 6:15 will keep people from pestering the bad people:

Mat 6:15  "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

What about the good famous?

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

Something I ponder at times is:

How are the famous or infamous dead protected or not in the next life from being harassed.

So a leader that started a war (no politics please, do not name anyone living)

how will it be prevented or not from thousands of resurrected persons showing up at the door to complain.

Same for the just famous or famous good persons never being left alone.

I have some ideas,  nothing that can be proven and will try to post some as the thread progresses.

The wicked are probably more worried about their own sins and resolving those issues over plotting revenge.  What is a spirit going to do against another spirit anyway?  The righteous are happy and know that God will sort the mess out.  We see the world through our short mortal eyes.  Once we die and see things more fully, all of the bad stuff that happened to us will be in the past.  We will be looking forward to the future than trying to settle a old scores.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Thanks, I was only referring to persons in Kingdoms 1, 2, and 3.

So you are only dealing with post-final judgment status?

[Metis_LDS]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you are only dealing with post-final judgment status?

Yes

[JLHPROF]

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the end, all but those who opt for perdition will have sincerely repented and been fully redeemed through the shed blood of Christ. At which point, I suspect, we'll all be over it.

 

I really don't think it'll be that easy.  Not every sin merits perdition.  But all the steps of repentance aren't always possible, like restitution.

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I really don't think it'll be that easy.  Not every sin merits perdition.  But all the steps of repentance aren't always possible, like restitution.

Christ's victory is total. Whilst rewards will differ, there is no such thing as partial redemption.

Elder Talmage:

Quote

Even to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance; and when sentence has been served, commuted perhaps by repentance and its attendant works, the prison doors shall open and the penitent captive be afforded opportunity to comply with the law, which he aforetime violated.

Elder McConkie:

Quote

Eventually, all are redeemed from spiritual death except those who have ‘sinned unto death’ (D. & C. 64:7), that is, those who are destined to be sons of perdition. John teaches this by saying that after death and hell have delivered up the dead which are in them, then death and hell shall be ‘cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.’ (Rev. 20:12–15.) And thus the Lord said in our day that the sons of perdition are ‘the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power’ (D. & C. 76:37), meaning any power after the resurrection.”

George Q. Cannon:

Quote

Those who are unfaithful, those who will listen to Satan, who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements, when they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power. They will dwell in darkness, and according to their sins their punishment will be. Some will be consigned to "outer darkness," where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the Gospel of salvation, through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ...

So it will be with those who are damned in the way that I have described and who are consigned to torment. They will remain in that condition, according to the enormity of their offenses, until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the Gospel of salvation. That Gospel which is taught to us will be taught to them, and they will have an opportunity of obeying it in their damned condition and through repentance will receive salvation.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

Those who on earth are liars, sorcerers, whoremongers, and adulterers, who receive not the gospel, or the testimony of Jesus, or the prophets, go to the telestial kingdom. They ... are given additional time in "hell" to repent and prepare themselves for a later resurrection ... During this period, they learn to abide by laws they once rejected. They bow the knee and confess their dependence on Jesus Christ ...

Joseph Smith:

Quote

I have a declaration to make as to the provisions which God hath made to suit the conditions of man, made from before the foundation of the world. What has Jesus said? All sins, and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven; and there is a salvation for all men, either in this world or the world to come, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there being a provision, either in this world or the world of spirits. Hence God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin ...

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

....................How are the famous or infamous dead protected or not in the next life from being harassed..................

Harassment?  What constitutes harassment?  Those in Outer Darkness are alone.  No contact, so no harassment, even though such solitude could constitute torture, like being in solitary confinement in prison.  A self-chosen fate.  That is forever.

The three kingdoms of glory are each wonderful, and are governed (respectively) by God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  This is the final status of each in a wonderful kingdom of glory.  A caste system, but a blessed one.  How would anyone feel harassed?

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

What about the good famous?

Celebrity status won't carry the same meaning to us in the next life as it does here.  The primary teacher that everyone remembers will be the celebrity, not the movie stars or musicians.  And even for people with earthly celebrity status, our recognition of everyone as our brothers and sisters in God's family puts things in a different perspective as to how we view their achievements.

I think it may be similar to how we handle famous people who might live in our own wards right here on earth.  A very famous person lives in one of my kid's wards, for example, and I've attended that ward on a few occasions.  The famous person takes part in callings and other ward activities, and participates in class discussions just like other members in the ward.  If you didn't know the person was famous, you'd think nothing of it.  The person is part of the ward family just like everyone else.  And, I think that's how it will be with us in the next life.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither famous nor obscure: for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How would anyone feel harassed?

And who would do the harassing since all have been purified by that time, either by repenting and accepting Christ’s redemption or whatever process purges those who do not accept the Atonement (my guess is they get to relive the suffering/pain they caused others until they get to the point they both empathize and understand it was wrong and therefore have no desire to do it again).  There is no sin committed in any of the three heavens, they are all of God’s glory.

[The Nehor]

I doubt spirits socialize in a way that they can mob celebrities.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

There is no sin committed in any of the three heavens, they are all of God’s glory.

This is such an important point that sometimes gets overlooked. No degree of glory is peopled by sinners. All degrees of glory will be peopled by genuinely repentant sinners who have been redeemed. Christ is indeed mighty to save, and the Father has given Him the victory.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Metis_LDS]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Harassment?  What constitutes harassment?  Those in Outer Darkness are alone.  No contact, so no harassment, even though such solitude could constitute torture, like being in solitary confinement in prison.  A self-chosen fate.  That is forever.

The three kingdoms of glory are each wonderful, and are governed (respectively) by God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  This is the final status of each in a wonderful kingdom of glory.  A caste system, but a blessed one.  How would anyone feel harassed?

I think along the lines that the Infamous will be recognisable (their facial features) so that even if there is no directory to look up where Hitler is he might be found anyway.  So is your position one where we are all blissed out and will not pursue at least to tell war mongers how people bearing losses in the war felt.  If so I accept that.  

[Metis_LDS]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

 There is no sin committed in any of the three heavens, they are all of God’s glory.

Would it be a Sin to tell an Infamous war leader about your suffering in their war.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

will not pursue at least to tell war mongers how people bearing losses in the war felt. 

Chances are they will be intimately aware of the consequences of their choices even if they repent and accept the Atonement…which they might is they were actually brain damaged and not just self centered evil who enjoyed hurting people.  Thus there will be no need to tell them for their own sake.

For those who were victims of them, hopefully they have healed and moved way beyond needing to revisit that pain.  Why carry a burden they don’t need?  Thus there will be no need to tell them for the sake of the victims.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Calm

[Metis_LDS]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

which they might is they were actually brain damaged and not just self centered evil who enjoyed hurting people.

If only every war monger was brain damaged, but I cannot see that.  I have seen up close those who are evil incarnate.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I think along the lines that the Infamous will be recognisable (their facial features) so that even if there is no directory to look up where Hitler is he might be found anyway.  So is your position one where we are all blissed out and will not pursue at least to tell war mongers how people bearing losses in the war felt.  If so I accept that.  

Yeh, pretty much.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

If only every war monger was brain damaged, but I cannot see that.  I have seen up close those who are evil incarnate.

I have no doubt there are evil people in this world…but they won’t be sons of perdition unless they were practically prophets first, so we know their destination…which will be the Telestial Kingdom if they do not choose to repent and accept the Atonement.  Even so, by the time they have gone through their hell, been sanctified by their own suffering (again I believe this type of sanctification comes because this suffering they experience is what they put others through and they come to understand the wrongness of their choices, so no longer desire to do them), and thus been judged fit for a kingdom of glory, they are sinless.  There are no evil people in heaven, only formerly evil.

What makes them still candidates for the Telestial I am guessing is while they no longer desire to sin, to harm others, they don’t desire to do much good either.  For a minor example, say there is a TK dweller who was always a great flower lover and when mortal, they employed masses of gardeners to tend their acres of gorgeous gardens, giving their employees poverty level salaries, if that.  Perhaps they used serfs or slaves and mistreated them badly.  Once they are in the Telestial, they still love flowers, but now instead of making others’ lives horrible to produce pleasure for them, they care for their garden themselves (assuming we have gardens of some sort) and get great enjoyment from it.  But being Telestial, they never invite anyone to walk in the gardens with them for the other’s enjoyment or give gifts of flowers to please others.  They do no harm to others and therefore are sinless, but do no good either so have the mentality that can exist only in the least glorified heaven.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Calm