JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So, just to be crystal clear, then, you claim to understand the endowment better than the prophets and apostles, right? Well the major COVID change is the equivalent of baptising the Father of a convert family and telling the wife and children that they are automatically baptized too. Or gathering all the new 12 year old boys in a stake, ordaining one a Deacon and telling the others they're all Deacons too now. So, maybe...🤷 1 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 It'll probably be the summer until I can go again, then. End of march, I'll stary going to 2nd hour with mask again since numbers are looking good. I'll also do smaller group things. But until my daughter's vaxxed covid ain't over for me (ie. probably, hopefully summer). I hope others enjoy it though. With luv, BD 2 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 49 minutes ago, Duncan said: Our temple has 36 seats and will now up capacity to 14, from what I heard. I'm going tomorrow and will see what is actually happening. To be honest though I feel very uncomfortable being in a room with people with no windows and the door is closed for an hour, I prefer the covid restrictions, I don't feel as claustrophobic! Fourteen is not many. What has it been up to now? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Well the major COVID change is the equivalent of baptising the Father of a convert family and telling the wife and children that they are automatically baptized too. Or gathering all the new 12 year old boys in a stake, ordaining one a Deacon and telling the others they're all Deacons too now. So, maybe...🤷 Vicarious ritual in the temple. What a novel concept. 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Fourteen is not many. What has it been up to now? 10 but I have seen 12 of late Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Vicarious ritual in the temple. What a novel concept. Not vicarious. Nobody is absent. Group. Apparently we're Moonies now. Up next, baptism for the dead an entire family in a single immersion. Save on water in drought regions. The endowment isn't a single ordinance as many suppose. It is made up of many ordinances. And all ordinances must be received individually. Including receiving priesthood elements (no different than ordination). You cannot do group ordination. That really what this is. It's not valid. I don't care what they say. Edited March 17 by JLHPROF Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: 10 but I have seen 12 of late What is the endowment room capacity? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Not vicarious. Nobody is absent. Absence is not a necessary element in vicarious experience. One can feel vicarious thrill while being present to watch a downhill skier. Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: What is the endowment room capacity? 36 seats but you could put in chairs and increase it to 40 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: It's not valid. I don't care what they say. And there we have it. 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: You cannot do group ordination. Group ordination is not done in the temple. Ordination is done individually but vicariously. Edited March 17 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Group ordination is not done in the temple. It is done individually but vicariously. You missed the comparison. Elements of priesthood previously received by everyone are no longer given individually. Edited March 17 by JLHPROF Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And there we have it. Yep. I no longer believe temple ordinances are in any way valid. Doesn't mean I don't believe the Church is true, but I feel that the ordinances of the house of the Lord have been diminished to the point there's no point in maintaining my recommend. I truly believe we'll be required to redo a good percent of temple ordinances in the Millennium. God won't accept these shadows of the real thing. Fortunately I also believe this was prophesied so I guess I should be pleased we're fulfilling prophecy. Can't wait for the bit where God puts the ordinance back to what it was. Hope I live that long. Edited March 17 by JLHPROF 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You missed the comparison. Elements of priesthood previously received by everyone are no longer given individually. No, I didn’t miss it. But you referred specifically to “group ordinations” as though that were happening in the temple. Edited March 17 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Elements of priesthood previously received by everyone are no longer given individually. They absolutely are, just not at the point of instruction. 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No, I didn’t miss it. But you referred specifically to ordinations. Because what I am referring to is receiving priesthood, just like an ordination. “Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.” Brigham Young You can't give what you never received. We desire all to receive it... Edited March 17 by JLHPROF Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: They absolutely are, just not at the point of instruction. That's not just instruction. That's a different kind of ordination. So when the point you reference is reached you are asked to give something back you never received, using something that doesn't belong to you. We desire all to receive it. Edited March 17 by JLHPROF 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Because what I am referring to is receiving priesthood, just like an ordination. “Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.” Brigham Young You can't give what you never received. We desire all to receive it... If it’s possible for a deceased individual to receive an ordinance vicariously, it’s surely possible for a group to receive an ordinance vicariously in the presence of one receiving it physically. Whether it transpires in that manner is for Jesus Christ to determine — and to reveal it through His anointed servant. 3 Link to comment
SeekingUnderstanding Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: If it’s possible for a deceased individual to receive an ordinance vicariously, it’s surely possible for a group to receive an ordinance vicariously in the presence of one receiving it physically. Whether it transpires in that manner is for Jesus Christ to determine — and to reveal it through His anointed servant. Sure and sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism right? 1 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) On 3/17/2022 at 12:35 PM, JLHPROF said: So when the point you reference is reached you are asked to give something back you never received, using something that doesn't belong to you. Nope, it's an act of reception in both cases, first by way of instruction. The language of the ordinance itself makes this clear. Edited March 18 by Hamba Tuhan 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted March 17 Popular Post Share Posted March 17 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Sure and sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism right? If God says it is. The issue is authority, not forms. Cf. animal sacrifice vs the sacrament of the Lord's supper or a circumcised penis vs a circumcised heart. The Jewish leaders in Jesus's day freaked out that He was changing things. He responded that he wasn't really changing but rather fulfilling. Those are weasel words if He didn't hold the authority; truth if He did. We perform ordinances in the temple for people who are missing body parts (including arms). There is zero difference between making this kind of allowance and making allowance for ordinances to continue during a global pandemic. In both cases, they need to be authorised by those holding the keys. Edited March 17 by Hamba Tuhan 7 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Sure and sprinkling is an acceptable form of baptism right? What Hamba said. 1 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 So, I just came back from the temple. 12 people were there, 6 men and 6 women-all masked. I wonder though if the online booking system hasn't been upgraded to allow more patrons to attend? My guess is if and when it does more would come but currently can't due to the system not allowing it yet 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 1 hour ago, Duncan said: So, I just came back from the temple. 12 people were there, 6 men and 6 women-all masked. I wonder though if the online booking system hasn't been upgraded to allow more patrons to attend? My guess is if and when it does more would come but currently can't due to the system not allowing it yet At our temple, we’ve been having a problem with thin sessions resulting from people neglecting to cancel their online reservations when they decide not to show up, thus wasting available slots. I wonder if that has been a problem elsewhere. 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: At our temple, we’ve been having a problem with thin sessions resulting from people neglecting to cancel their online reservations when they decide not to show up, thus wasting available slots. I wonder if that has been a problem elsewhere. it has been here as well but I don't know to what extent-it is really too bad for people who want to go, could go but someone forgot to cancel or whatever and yeah empty seats 2 Link to comment
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