Christian/Mormon Debate On What Authority We Should Believe

[Anakin7]

6 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I listened to the second hour of the debate yesterday during my walk (the first video posted).  The two guys from the Apologia group didn't stand a chance, not just because the two LDS guys did a good job (they handled it pretty well), but also because it's impossible to win a debate supporting sola scriptura.  I felt that the debate got off topic in too many ways.  But the closing statement by Jason Hansen (of the LDS side, starting at the 2:01:51 mark of the video) was powerful and inviting. 

I admire people who can think on their feet like they all did in the video, under the pressures of a debate like that.  The LDS guys did a great job of making their point.  But if I were to be the Monday morning quarterback with 20/20 hindsight, I have these two main observations: 

• I didn't think they handled the question about the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 50:24-26 well at all.  They were asked (I'm paraphrasing here):  Since there aren't any Hebrew manuscripts supporting Joseph Smith's inspired version of Genesis 50:24-26, why should we accept anything that Joseph Smith says as true at all?  I realize their response to the question was partly to keep consistent with the topic, but I think the question itself presumes something about the Joseph Smith translation that is inaccurate, and they should have pointed that out instead of just saying that Joseph Smith could have been wrong about it.
• They could have used more scripture to support the position that the Bible does not teach sola scriptura.  Take 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for example. Maybe they used this verse somewhere else and I missed it, but it would have put the icing on the cake in the closing statement:  "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

There were several other things that I think could have been pointed out, but I know that's really easy for me to say from the comfort of my computer chair when I'm not in the hot seat of a debate.  

I also sampled segments of the second video you posted (the people who posted that video really don't like Calvinism or James White, do they).  It's quite long, and there's a lot of time used up in the video that could be edited out.  And even though he affirms that the "Mormons" won the debate without question, he brushes it off as the "Mormons" using "solid arguments... facts.. factual arguments... truthful statements, truthful arguments, but stolen by the Mormons in order to use them, dishonestly, deceitfully, to mislead people into following a false church, a false prophet, false God, false Christ, a false spirit" (2:41:59).  [Sarcasm mode on] Really nice compliment  [Sarcasm mode off]. 

Thank you for your analysis and thoughts. 

 

[caspianrex]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:05 PM, Tacenda said:

There is this pastor that makes me want to run right back to the LDS church and cling to them. I wonder how many are like this idiot. 

 

I am sad to report that the "pastor" in this video runs a church that is only a few miles away from the United Methodist church I serve as Director of Music Ministries. He is an embarrassment to our community. 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

I am sad to report that the "pastor" in this video runs a church that is only a few miles away from the United Methodist church I serve as Director of Music Ministries. He is an embarrassment to our community. 

Does he have a very big congregation?

[caspianrex]

46 minutes ago, Calm said:

Does he have a very big congregation?

It's hard to tell from all the video clips, but it looks like a few hundred. They meet under a big circus tent. No fooling.

And a lot of the male congregants carry pistols to the services.

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's easy. Perhaps that is the problem.  One never has certainty of anything EXCEPT one's heart.  Of course no one has any WAY to judge anyone else's heart, so that is easy!  It's judging incomeasurables.

Certainty, I believe, is fear of ambiguity.  Face ambiguity and call it exactly what it is, and certainty emerges.  See ideas and things as relations and not mirrors of reality does the trick.

You can never walk into the "same" river twice, and life is just that- a river of consciousness constantly changing. Every floating leaf changes the whole. The only thing certain is uncertainty, and your own heart.

Of that I am absolutely certain.

Read some Heraclitus!

After reading this, I have no idea if you are agreeing with me or not! That really doesn't matter I guess. I live on a river so I completely understand the comparison. Read some Miroslav Volf and Peter Enns! The latter considers certainty in some situations to be a sin. I agree with him. The former prefers provisional certitude. I also agree with him. I might enjoy Heraclitus - of course only where correctly translated! 🙃 Take care my friend!

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, caspianrex said:

I am sad to report that the "pastor" in this video runs a church that is only a few miles away from the United Methodist church I serve as Director of Music Ministries. He is an embarrassment to our community. 

I would also suggest he is an embarrassment to Christianity and as the father of an autistic child, to decency. I would also suggest that his church is not affiliated with any larger authority or denomination. Is that correct?

[pogi]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:14 PM, Navidad said:

As I said in an earlier post, I am much more comfortable with the concept of provisional certitude, which means I am content in my faith and its validity until someone can approach me with something better, more genuine, that makes more sense, and that I believe teaches me more about God. Then I must first receive it, then reflect, reason, and ponder on it, then ask a million questions, then accept or reject it as my new found truth. If I can't or won't do all of that, I am not a mature person, open to new insights. Best, Navidad.

Navidad, I must say that this really resonated with me.  It expressed my position perfectly.  I did a quick google search of the term "provisional certitude" and came up with these really great words of wisdom from a conference minister of the Ohio Conference of the Mennonite Church, named Tom: 

Quote

Nine years ago I was asked to share some thoughts about what it meant to be a conference minister with my peers. What follows is a portion of what I shared.

As all of us walk the spiritual journey that goes [from orientation] through disorientation, no matter how effective our spiritual gyroscopes have been, we come through those experiences changed people and congregations. This new orientation is not a returning to a former existence, but a continuing journey on toward the shalom and wholeness that God promises all creatures.

I find that a tempered faith needs three characteristics to guide it. A more seasoned faith must exhibit a certain humility that acknowledges our finitude as well as our best intentions. I have found the phrase “provisional certitude” to be a helpful way of understanding and describing this humility. We must candidly acknowledge that we do not have all the answers (even as conference ministers!) while at the same time not being paralyzed into indecision because of that reality. With appropriate humility that we may not be entirely correct in our journey, we move forward with enough certitude that we can function, but with a measure of provisionality that enables us to hear further correction and acknowledge our limited vision.

Equally important is to exhibit a holy curiosity. There is something magical and invigorating about a child-like faith and energy. As we have been about this pilgrimage for some time, we tend to become jaded and somewhat wary and weary. We lose our sense of wonder and awe about God’s creation and God’s cause. But children are not that way. And we need to be reminded that this is God’s cause, and God will supply sufficient energy for us to witness to the dawning Kingdom.

Do not misunderstand. This is not the same as a curiosity that wants to do something merely because we can (Micah 2:1b). This is a curiosity that seeks to discover what it is that God wants us to do, and then to be sufficiently energized by God’s power to do it.

And finally, we need to live a life that is propelled by hope. We need to remember that on this journey we are ultimately being pulled toward heaven by a holy gravitational force called hope. The calling that we are about as conference ministers is worth doing even if there appear to be no immediate rewards, even if it appears to be primarily hard work (and sometimes heartache). We continue on the journey because this is how God has called us to witness to and participate in the saving work of creation and its creatures.

I share this because my most recent two-week sabbatical readings have confirmed these thoughts from nine years ago. The readings I attempted to absorb during these two weeks in September reflected on the interface between science and religion. Clearly one of the acknowledgments among many scientists can be summarized in the words of the late Richard Feynman. As a physicist who taught about quantum mechanics, he observed that there is an ever “expanding frontier of ignorance” before us. The more we know, the more mystery there is before us.

In writing about his interactions with Feynman, the author Herman Wouk was reminded of Ecclesiastes 3:11, which he translates as, “He has made everything beautiful in its time and has put the universe in their hearts, except that a man will not find the work that the Lord has wrought from beginning to end.” The Jewish Tanakh translates this same verse as, “He brings everything to pass precisely at its time: He also puts eternity in their minds, but without man every guessing, from first to last, all the things that God brings to pass.”

The one thing a growing number of scientists can agree upon, when they exercise appropriate humility, is that the more we know, the more we know we do not yet know. And so it is for us as Christians as we think about God. The more we experience of God and God’s mercy in our lives, the more we realize that God is still very much beyond our comprehension.

https://ohiomennoniteconference.org/2013/10/words-from-tom-21/

As a subscriber to the philosophy of epistemological holism, which is well elucidated in the parable of the blind men and the elephant, I must say that this really great stuff!
 

Edited March 17, 2022 by pogi

[caspianrex]

14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would also suggest he is an embarrassment to Christianity and as the father of an autistic child, to decency. I would also suggest that his church is not affiliated with any larger authority or denomination. Is that correct?

I think they are an independent church (somewhat Baptist-leaning in their theology, but not part of any larger Baptist denomination) . As far as I know, he is not beholden to any authority. As a result, he pretty much says and does as he pleases. For example, just a couple weeks ago, he started telling his congregation that he knew of six WITCHES who had recently infiltrated their ranks. He claims that he was alerted to the presence of these witches by a demon that he cast out of a woman. I wish I were making this up...

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, caspianrex said:

I think they are an independent church (somewhat Baptist-leaning in their theology, but not part of any larger Baptist denomination) . As far as I know, he is not beholden to any authority. As a result, he pretty much says and does as he pleases. For example, just a couple weeks ago, he started telling his congregation that he knew of six WITCHES who had recently infiltrated their ranks. He claims that he was alerted to the presence of these witches by a demon that he cast out of a woman. I wish I were making this up...

This is how I first learned of him, on Midnight Mormons YouTube:

 

[caspianrex]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is how I first learned of him, on Midnight Mormons YouTube:

 

Every time I see this clip (and I've seen it a few times), I'm like...

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Navidad, I must say that this really resonated with me.  It expressed my position perfectly.  I did a quick google search of the term "provisional certitude" and came up with these really great words of wisdom from a conference minister of the Ohio Conference of the Mennonite Church, named Tom: 

Thanks for sharing the article. It is very well written! I often wish I would express myself better, especially on this forum. Take care!

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I often wish I would express myself better, especially on this forum. Take care!

An aspiration I think we all can relate to.  

[Tacenda]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:24 PM, Anakin7 said:

Tacenda did you watch the follow up visual presentation I posted above ?.

I just finished the first video, and will have to view the follow up later. My thoughts on the first video..

I believe in more a universalist belief, that all are children of God and hopefully most will live with Him again. I believe Joseph Smith had that background growing up and I feel like he believed these teachings while watching the revivals in his day, and while watching the debate today, I feel like I'm in his shoes feeling the same thing. 

I think Joseph was so confused on which preacher to believe while in his youth. And I think he eschewed the thought that his brother Alvin is going to hell because he wasn't baptized. And that babies will go to hell if they aren't baptized in infancy. I believe he mentally wanted to change this thinking because in his heart wanted folks to not go through the pain of believing their loved ones that passed w/o baptism were in eternal hell. And established what he believed were good teachings and picked them from different teachings and added his own interpretation of the Bible. And added upon the words in the Bible, and made it so the kingdom of God would be established on the earth, and he began the process, I think feeling like the world would soon end, and the need to get people ready. But then, IMO, things got a little crazy with his restoring things in the Bible, because Jesus Christ put away a lot of those teachings I thought.

Joseph also taught the world would end in the late 1800's and stated a year that it would occur, if memory serves. That didn't happen, he got that revelation wrong. Does that mean he's not a prophet? I guess not, since they are allowed to be fallible, unless you read the scripture that a prophet can't have a revelation and it not come to pass. So that's been a thorn in my side until I then add that I don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are God breathed. ETA: Rebuttal to Joseph's revelation about the end and the Savior's return. 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_prophesy_that_Jesus_Christ_would_return_in_1890%3F

Back to the debate, I thought it interesting how the LDS side brought up the many break offs from the Protestant faith. Well, same with the LDS church, over a hundred or two hundred break offs. And the LDS side mention how the other side said they were elect, well don't the LDS think some of them are as well?

Also, the question from the audience that said, what if they get a different answer about the BoM being true, then the LDS said it must not be the right voice of God, or did I hear that right? Not sure, but that's where things break down.

I think I'll stick with my own interpretations and not men's churches. I will try to have the kingdom of God within me, and rely on that voice...thanks @mfbukowski.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Tacenda

[Anakin7]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I just finished the first video, and will have to view the follow up later. My thoughts on the first video..

I believe in more a universalist belief, that all are children of God and hopefully most will live with Him again. I believe Joseph Smith had that background growing up and I feel like he believed these teachings while watching the revivals in his day, and while watching the debate today, I feel like I'm in his shoes feeling the same thing. 

I think Joseph was so confused on which preacher to believe while in his youth. And I think he eschewed the thought that his brother Alvin is going to hell because he wasn't baptized. And that babies will go to hell if they aren't baptized in infancy. I believe he mentally wanted to change this thinking because in his heart wanted folks to not go through the pain of believing their loved ones that passed w/o baptism were in eternal hell. And established what he believed were good teachings and picked them from different teachings and added his own interpretation of the Bible. And added upon the words in the Bible, and made it so the kingdom of God would be established on the earth, and he began the process, I think feeling like the world would soon end, and the need to get people ready. But then, IMO, things got a little crazy with his restoring things in the Bible, because Jesus Christ put away a lot of those teachings I thought.

Joseph also taught the world would end in the late 1800's and stated a year that it would occur, if memory serves. That didn't happen, he got that revelation wrong. Does that mean he's not a prophet? I guess not, since they are allowed to be fallible, unless you read the scripture that a prophet can't have a revelation and it not come to pass. So that's been a thorn in my side until I then add that I don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are God breathed. ETA: Rebuttal to Joseph's revelation about the end and the Savior's return. 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_prophesy_that_Jesus_Christ_would_return_in_1890%3F

Back to the debate, I thought it interesting how the LDS side brought up the many break offs from the Protestant faith. Well, same with the LDS church, over a hundred or two hundred break offs. And the LDS side mention how the other side said they were elect, well don't the LDS think some of them are as well?

Also, the question from the audience that said, what if they get a different answer about the BoM being true, then the LDS said it must not be the right voice of God, or did I hear that right? Not sure, but that's where things break down.

I think I'll stick with my own interpretations and not men's churches. I will try to have the kingdom of God within me, and rely on that voice...thanks @mfbukowski.

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Grace to you.

[InCognitus]

17 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Thank you for your analysis and thoughts. 

So what are your thoughts on the two videos?

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 

Also, the question from the audience that said, what if they get a different answer about the BoM being true, then the LDS said it must not be the right voice of God, or did I hear that right? Not sure, but that's where things break down.

I think I'll stick with my own interpretations and not men's churches. I will try to have the kingdom of God within me, and rely on that voice...thanks @mfbukowski

Thanks for your kind words! 

We each have to find our unique path, because finding it gives us our unique purpose in life, and ultimately our purpose in the Kingdom. 

The journey is itself the goal!

We speak of building worlds, and the way we see the Kingdom using our own personal and unique experiences IS I believe, building our unique world/ "mansion".

We cannot fathom the complexity of God's whole kingdom- we do not have the ability to comprehend it in its fullness, but we can at least use our own inspiration to create a path which leads us closer to Christ.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

Navidad, I must say that this really resonated with me.  It expressed my position perfectly.  I did a quick google search of the term "provisional certitude" and came up with these really great words of wisdom from a conference minister of the Ohio Conference of the Mennonite Church, named Tom: 

As a subscriber to the philosophy of epistemological holism, which is well elucidated in the parable of the blind men and the elephant, I must say that this really great stuff!
 

Yes, this whole post is IT !

[Gervin]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:04 PM, mfbukowski said:

You can never walk into the "same" river twice,

Read some Heraclitus!

You can't even do it once.  Read some Kierkegaard.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Gervin said:

You can't even do it once.  Read some Kierkegaard.

Lol!  

Cute, but in that context, there is no context.  

Bosvilch?

Fedalmun!  Widuma skavel scoma "same".

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by mfbukowski