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Dehlin v. Kwaku - An Update


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2 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

So I guess that's why the cesletter still contains claims that are outright false then?

I am not very familiar with the CES letter. What little I have read did not impress me and it puzzles me why it seems to get so much attention. So I cannot opine what may be accurate or not in the production.

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5 hours ago, Teancum said:

No there is no such goal.  The only goal is to share info so people can make informed decisions. And that seems a great threat to the LDS Church and many of its members, like you.

Informed decisions about what?

The existence and nature of Deity?  How best to live our lives?

My experience has been that communion with Deity satisfies completely with respect to the first question. Man can add only testimony, God Himself is willing to provide “proof of life.”

As to how we ought to live our lives, if we decide to adopt a healthy desire to live the two great commandments, a soft and open heart, and an ear tuned to the Spirit won’t all other decisions become easier?

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Another video dropped where Kwaku and others go over this article about Dehlin in the Salt Lake Tribune.

 

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14 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Informed decisions about what?

About  committing a substantial amount of time, talents, money, faith, family etc to an organization that makes fantastic claims. 

14 hours ago, let’s roll said:

The existence and nature of Deity?  How best to live our lives?

My experience has been that communion with Deity satisfies completely with respect to the first question. Man can add only testimony, God Himself is willing to provide “proof of life.”

As to how we ought to live our lives, if we decide to adopt a healthy desire to live the two great commandments, a soft and open heart, and an ear tuned to the Spirit won’t all other decisions become easier?

In order to have deity confirm something it seems to make sense to have the full picture before hand.  Most who commit their lives to the Church do not.  Thus being informed before committing seems to make sense.  At least to me and many others.  I think one of the main reason baptism in the USA and other developed nations has dropped is people can gain access to information other than the faith promoting history and founding narrative the Church has historically put forth.

Edited by Teancum
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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Ok. Then how about not a faith promoting narrative only. You know.  The one that leaves out the truths that some leaders said are not useful.

I am fine with a realistic narrative that includes actual warts and roses.

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13 hours ago, Calm said:

We never have the full picture.

Paraphraising José Ortega y Gasset: Communication is possible only because, out of the infinite number of things that could be said, we don't say most of them.

As a professionally trained historian, I'm repeatedly fascinated by the ability of critics to weaponise this obvious fact.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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14 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok. Then how about not a faith promoting narrative only. You know.  The one that leaves out the truths that some leaders said are not useful.

 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I am fine with a realistic narrative that includes actual warts and roses.

 

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Paraphraising José Ortega y Gasset: Communication is possible only because, out of the infinite number of things that could be said, we don't say most of them.

As a professionally trained historian, I'm repeatedly fascinated by the ability of critics to weaponise this obvious fact.

[Knock-knock-knock!  Homeowner answers door.]

"Hi, I'm Elder Gourdin, and this is my companion, Elder Gerald Tanner.  One of us is a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ..." :D :rofl: :D 

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23 hours ago, Teancum said:

it seems to make sense to have the full picture before hand

So what full picture do you believe one needs to have before praying regarding the existence and nature of God?  

My understanding is that God doesn’t require that we have the full picture before he shares His wisdom with us.  Instead He requires that we have unwavering faith in Him.

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47 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

So what full picture do you believe one needs to have before praying regarding the existence and nature of God?  

Full picture may be a poor use of words.  I would say whatever an individual needs to make a educated and as much evidence based choice as they want. Then they can pray about with the most information available. The problem with the LDS Church I grew up with as well as served my mission with did not volunteer a lot of information about its history other than a faith promoting  one that leaves out a lot of detail.  When I was a missionary we challenged people to baptism on the first discussion. We taught about the HG, that they would have good feelings as they listened to our message and that was the HG telling them it was true. We would then tell the FV story, declare God has restored his true church with prophets and apostle.  We would ask how the felt when we told them the FV story. Usually we would get "I Felt God, or warm or peace." We would tell them that was the HG telling them its true and then challenge to baptism. The goal was to then teach five more discussions, get them to church at least once and baptize them within two weeks.

 

I would submit these people did NOT have enough information to make an informed decision about whether to commit to the Church and all that entails.

47 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

My understanding is that God doesn’t require that we have the full picture before he shares His wisdom with us.  Instead He requires that we have unwavering faith in Him.

Yes that is the way religions get their grip. That is why now, when a person can research, they are less likely to join than say 25 or 30year plus back.  Information is a wonderful thing.

It amazes me that you and other think that commiting to an organization that will dominate your time, attention, money, culture etc for all your life does not need to have significant time and effort put in learning  all you can before you commit.  Not likely you would make a decision on so many other significant  life issues the same way. Would you invest a few hundred thousand dollars with just a little information and then praying about it?  And then do it based on it feels good to you?  There is a reason the financial services industry is so highly regulated and requires all sorts of disclosure to those who are considering investing.  One  should approach a high demand life consuming religion the same way.

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2 hours ago, let’s roll said:

So what full picture do you believe one needs to have before praying regarding the existence and nature of God?  

My understanding is that God doesn’t require that we have the full picture before he shares His wisdom with us.  Instead He requires that we have unwavering faith in Him.

One of the biggest issues concerning why some seem to gain a powerful and abiding testimony of the existence of God without a great struggle of faith, while others struggle like crazy to gain a testimony of God without success may be summed up in the following words of the Savior when he testified of the reality of God to the unbelieving Jews:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The answer to the belief/unbelief conundrum may very well lie in the fact that some were more valiant and faithful than others in the preexistence and that, as a consequence, they carry the sacred talent to believe with them to earth, while those who were less valiant in the pre-earth life will likely find it very difficult to hear and believe the voice of the Savior. Mystery solved! If this premise is true, there’s need to go on ad infinitude trying to explain to unbelievers why some find it easy to believe while others find it exceedingly difficult. The Lord says that the works we do in this life will follow us into the resurrection; it’s therefore reasonable to conclude that what we believed and did before this life followed us into this present state of existence..

Edited by teddyaware
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18 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

One of the biggest issues concerning why some seem to gain a powerful and abiding testimony of the existence of God without a great struggle of faith, while others struggle like crazy to gain a testimony of God without success may be summed up in the following words of the Savior when he testified of the reality of God to the unbelieving Jews:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The answer to the belief/unbelief conundrum may very well lie in the fact that some were more valiant and faithful than others in the preexistence and that, as a consequence, they carry the sacred talent to believe with them to earth, while those who were less valiant in the pre-earth life will likely find it very difficult to hear and believe the voice of the Savior. Mystery solved! If this premise is true, there’s need to go on ad infinitude trying to explain to unbelievers why some find it easy to believe while others find it exceedingly difficult. The Lord says that the works we do in this life will follow us into the resurrection; it’s therefore reasonable to conclude that what we believed and did before this life followed us into this present state of existence..

Do you believe in the divine right of kings?

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On 3/11/2022 at 12:32 PM, latterdaytemplar said:

Another video dropped where Kwaku and others go over this article about Dehlin in the Salt Lake Tribune.

 

So my vertigo got triggered by too much celebration of my son’s bday, so I am lying in bed unable to move my head much. Looking for stuff to pass the time…this was not it. They do the same stuff to ex and antis that I dislike the antis doing to members. I would think they would have learned. 

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On 3/12/2022 at 2:05 PM, Teancum said:

It amazes me that you and other think that commiting to an organization that will dominate your time, attention, money, culture etc for all your life does not need to have significant time and effort put in learning  all you can before you commit.  Not likely you would make a decision on so many other significant  life issues the same way. Would you invest a few hundred thousand dollars with just a little information and then praying about it?  And then do it based on it feels good to you?  There is a reason the financial services industry is so highly regulated and requires all sorts of disclosure to those who are considering investing.  One  should approach a high demand life consuming religion the same way.

Please understand that i say this with love and respect.  You’re not hearing me.  If you go back and read our exchange in this thread, I don’t believe I’ve mentioned the Church at all.   I’ve explained how one can know that God lives, that we are His children, that He loves us and that He has a work for us to do.

My focus has been on Deity.  Your focus has been on the Church.

 My experience with Deity has resulted in a desire to do my best to do what Deity would have me do in this life and prepare myself to accept an invitation to join them in their work in the next life.  

That’s not a business decision made after weighing the pros and cons, it’s a resolve to be a disciple.  It’s an effort to reciprocate Divine love.  It’s not dependent on the valiance of any other person or any entity. 

Why would we allow any person or entity to hinder our effort to know the reality of Deity, feel Divine love and experience the freedom from fear and doubt that comes when we follow Him.

If we start with God, the rest of our journey can be informed by the Divine.  That journey may not map to what others perceive as desirable or rational  (many of Christ’s disciples were martyred) but it will be the journey of a disciple.

Edited by let’s roll
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14 hours ago, Calm said:

So my vertigo got triggered by too much celebration of my son’s bday, so I am lying in bed unable to move my head much. Looking for stuff to pass the time…this was not it. They do the same stuff to ex and antis that I dislike the antis doing to members. I would think they would have learned. 

That's my biggest complaint with them.  They seem to have a 'win at whatever the cost' vibe, so they are ok doing stuff that to others that they would never find ok if it was done to them.  I hate double standards.

They need to grow up.  They could actually do some good.

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15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Please understand that i say this with love and respect.  You’re not hearing me.  If you go back and read our exchange in this thread, I don’t believe I’ve mentioned the Church at all.   I’ve explained how one can know that God lives, that we are His children, that He loves us and that He has a work for us to do.

Ok. For most here church and deity are identical.

15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

My focus has been on Deity.  Your focus has been on the Church.

No not really. I have concerns about whether there is a deity as well.  I focus on the church here because this is a discussion board mostly about things LDS.

 

15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

 My experience with Deity has resulted in a desire to do my best to do what Deity would have me do in this life and prepare myself to accept an invitation to join them in their work in the next life.  

So is your experience with deity separate from the LDS Church or is it connected?

 

15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

That’s not a business decision made after weighing the pros and cons, it’s a resolve to be a disciple.  It’s an effort to reciprocate Divine love.  It’s not dependent on the valiance of any other person or any entity. 

It seems to me that regardless of whether your experience with deity is connected to any other person or organization you should still do leg work to determine whether what you are experiencing has basis in rationality.  But I am skeptical of what you are saying.  Are you active LDS?  If yes why? Were you LDS when you sought deity? If yes it seems to me the two cannot be bifurcated.

 

15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Why would we allow any person or entity to hinder our effort to know the reality of Deity, feel Divine love and experience the freedom from fear and doubt that comes when we follow Him.

I am quite fine with seeking deity apart from any organization.  

15 hours ago, let’s roll said:

If we start with God, the rest of our journey can be informed by the Divine.  That journey may not map to what others perceive as desirable or rationale (many of Christ’s disciples were martyred) but it will be the journey of a disciple.

So if you are connected to diety first how can you continue to support an organization in your relation with deity that is likely false?

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19 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One of the biggest issues concerning why some seem to gain a powerful and abiding testimony of the existence of God without a great struggle of faith, while others struggle like crazy to gain a testimony of God without success may be summed up in the following words of the Savior when he testified of the reality of God to the unbelieving Jews:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The answer to the belief/unbelief conundrum may very well lie in the fact that some were more valiant and faithful than others in the preexistence and that, as a consequence, they carry the sacred talent to believe with them to earth, while those who were less valiant in the pre-earth life will likely find it very difficult to hear and believe the voice of the Savior. Mystery solved! If this premise is true, there’s need to go on ad infinitude trying to explain to unbelievers why some find it easy to believe while others find it exceedingly difficult. The Lord says that the works we do in this life will follow us into the resurrection; it’s therefore reasonable to conclude that what we believed and did before this life followed us into this present state of existence..

Oh my goodness.  And some of you wonder why I say religion poisons things. The above is a fine example of arrogance and perilous piety that leads to so many other problems. And this is when religion becomes very dangerous. 

But no Teddy, you are not special. You are not better. You are not more valient.  You may be more faithful but faith really is not the most noble of virtues and may be one of the worst when it is approached like you do as we can see above.

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20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One of the biggest issues concerning why some seem to gain a powerful and abiding testimony of the existence of God without a great struggle of faith, while others struggle like crazy to gain a testimony of God without success may be summed up in the following words of the Savior when he testified of the reality of God to the unbelieving Jews:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The answer to the belief/unbelief conundrum may very well lie in the fact that some were more valiant and faithful than others in the preexistence and that, as a consequence, they carry the sacred talent to believe with them to earth, while those who were less valiant in the pre-earth life will likely find it very difficult to hear and believe the voice of the Savior. Mystery solved! If this premise is true, there’s need to go on ad infinitude trying to explain to unbelievers why some find it easy to believe while others find it exceedingly difficult. The Lord says that the works we do in this life will follow us into the resurrection; it’s therefore reasonable to conclude that what we believed and did before this life followed us into this present state of existence..

Does this apply to those who don’t have the faith to believe our leaders who debunked the self-serving pre-existence nonsense?

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21 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One of the biggest issues concerning why some seem to gain a powerful and abiding testimony of the existence of God without a great struggle of faith, while others struggle like crazy to gain a testimony of God without success may be summed up in the following words of the Savior when he testified of the reality of God to the unbelieving Jews:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The answer to the belief/unbelief conundrum may very well lie in the fact that some were more valiant and faithful than others in the preexistence and that, as a consequence, they carry the sacred talent to believe with them to earth, while those who were less valiant in the pre-earth life will likely find it very difficult to hear and believe the voice of the Savior. Mystery solved! If this premise is true, there’s need to go on ad infinitude trying to explain to unbelievers why some find it easy to believe while others find it exceedingly difficult. The Lord says that the works we do in this life will follow us into the resurrection; it’s therefore reasonable to conclude that what we believed and did before this life followed us into this present state of existence..

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers [in the Church of God -- D&C 138:55]; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

And those in Alma 13 were also noble and great, good, foreordained to be rulers, etc.; though a number eventually dropped the faith they had in the pre-existence sometime during this life: "And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren. Or in fine, in the first place [pre-existence] they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts [in mortality], being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared--"

According to this, we were all on the same standing in the pre-existence with Jesus, even Lucifer, who was made a ruler for a time (D&C 76:25). The differences among us were and are a function of intelligence (talent), not valiance (Abraham 3:18-19). It seems the term "valiant" is reserved for an attribute we must prove in this life and by which we are judged (D&C 76:79) by not hardening our hearts. Since the Lord assigns the bounds of our habitation (Acts 17:26-28), He also assigns the times of our privilege for being called to the high and holy calling, which for many does not come until the spirit world.

It seems to me, the the fact is that some prove to be more valiant and faithful than others in this life, not in the pre-existence. In the pre-existence, we are all on the same standing, albeit some more intelligent than others, seemingly due to our "birth" order, which, by the virtue, merits and grace of Christ, are made equal in the Church of the Firstborn, where everyone gets a white stone that grants them the balance needed for a fulness of intelligence.

 

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