Dehlin v. Kwaku - An Update

[smac97]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Oh man.  

It gets better.  I posted links to the above articles about the outside-of-Jerusalem temples (along with brief excerpts) in the "Comments" section of the CARM article.  They deleted the comment.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It gets better.  I posted links to the above articles about the outside-of-Jerusalem temples (along with brief excerpts) in the "Comments" section of the CARM article.  They deleted the comment.

Thanks,

-Smac

That’s exactly how I remember them. 😂

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

This sounds about right.  There are always politicians/evangelists in every group.  Some people are hard wired to want to get people to join in whatever they are doing at the moment.

Sort of like sending missionaries out and every member a missionary and so on.....🙄

[Paloma]

I find it interesting to hear these references to CARM and Recovery from Mormonism. 

When I was first coming online to learn more about LDS goings-on - especially after the last of the missionary connections I had left this area and I was left with only my affection and curiosity - I turned to the 2 websites I'd heard mentioned:  FAIR and SHIELDS.  I found FAIR very helpful for in-depth information. 

But I was looking for some 'real people' contact and interaction - and then I found SHIELDS with its forays into the interpersonal LDS Apologetics and Counter Apologetics world.  After reading some of the letters there, I found that to be a turnoff!  So much so that I had no appetite for delving into CARM.  I think I took one peek and walked away!  Reading SHIELDS gave me a big distaste for the apologists on both sides.  I found the material there to contain sarcasm and veiled hostility unlike the straightforward and helpful content I found at FAIR.

I followed the old FAIR board as well as Recovery from Mormonism for awhile because some of the missionaries I had befriended ended up on those sites.  One missionary in particular was not treated well by a couple of LDS apologists on the FAIR board who castigated, demeaned and stalked this individual and IMO hastened this person's exit from the church.  I still remember the shock and disappointment felt by this person.

I also have to say that it was in those early days of my reading this board that I saw deep Christian faith that helped cement my understanding that we "all belong" to God's family.  I myself was treated well.

This individual (disaffected returned missionary) became part of the Recovery from Mormonism bulletin board community for a short while, and I was interested to learn more of that forum and its occupants. 

Smac, I think I remember you from there - an earnest, reasoned and respectful voice for defending the faith, as I recall.

I also remember John Dehlin introducing himself as a student of people's behaviour in the church, wanting to gather their stories.  Oh, how his own story has evolved since then!

As I became aware of LDS defenders and various online communities of ex-Mormons, I was drawn to hearing from people who have lost their faith.  So often they come across as raw - sometimes very angry and sometimes in deep pain.  So understandable!

I've always thought that defenders of the faith need to be especially patient and compassionate with those who are struggling with faith or with those who've walked away.  Why on earth come across as mocking or “putting down” people who see things differently!  Surely, if God is real He doesn’t need imperfect ‘defenders’ who are more likely to muddy the waters than provide pure light and love.  For me, the Prodigal Son parable is the most compelling and promising example of who God is in all of Scripture.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Paloma

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, juliann said:

Which they often published with ellpses to hide anything favorable. It was ubiquitous. For the life of me, I don't understand why they are given plaudits when they whitewashed as much as the church ever did. 

It is not so much their intentions or methods that we laud, bur rather the results of their trenchant efforts.  God used them to build up His Church.

[smac97]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

It gets better.  I posted links to the above articles about the outside-of-Jerusalem temples (along with brief excerpts) in the "Comments" section of the CARM article.  They deleted the comment.

Thanks,

-Smac

I had to register at the same time as I posted the comment, so it's possible that the comment did not go through since I posted it and then clicked on the "Confirm Your Subscription" link CARM sent to me a few minutes later.  I have now confirmed my subscription and then posted the following comment: "What are your thoughts about the temples at Leontopolis and Elephantine?"

"Awaiting for approval."

I wonder if it will be approved.  I hope so.  It's a pretty benign comment.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I had to register at the same time as I posted the comment, so it's possible that the comment did not go through since I posted it and then clicked on the "Confirm Your Subscription" link CARM sent to me a few minutes later.  I have now confirmed my subscription and then posted the following comment: "What are your thoughts about the temples at Leontopolis and Elephantine?"

"Awaiting for approval."

I wonder if it will be approved.  I hope so.  It's a pretty benign comment.

Thanks,

-Smac

I posted the above comment at 11:52.  I just checked it now, at 1:15 p.m.  The result:

 

Yep.  They removed it.  Or they didn't approve it.  

Disappointing, though not very surprising.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I posted the above comment at 11:52.  I just checked it now, at 1:15 p.m.  The result:

 

 

Yep.  They removed it.  Or they didn't approve it.  

Disappointing, though not very surprising.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Yes, not at all surprising.  They are the russia of christian apologetics, only the party-line is allowed.  Thank goodness most Christians are not like them.

[Megalodon]

On 3/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, Teancum said:

You refer to yourself as a scholar and I am not sure why as I do not know your background.

Concerning @Robert F. Smith:

In this case, Google (or Bing) is your friend.

• About Robert F. Smith (Interpreter Foundation) - "Robert F. Smith is an alumnus of BYU and has had advanced training in archeology and Near Eastern languages at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, UCLA, and CalState University, Long Beach. He was the first editor of the FARMS Book of Mormon Critical Text Project (1979–1987), and most recently presented a paper on ”Book of Mormon Theologies: A Thumbnail Sketch” at the 2012 annual meeting of the Society  for Mormon Philosophy and Theology (SMPT). He is currently a member of Grandview Stake and a veil worker at the Provo Temple."
• Robert F. Smith (Book of Mormon Onomasticon - BYU Library)
• Smith, Robert F. (Book of Mormon Central)
• etc

Perhaps now you know why.

[Teancum]

56 minutes ago, Megalodon said:

Concerning @Robert F. Smith:

In this case, Google (or Bing) is your friend.

• About Robert F. Smith (Interpreter Foundation) - "Robert F. Smith is an alumnus of BYU and has had advanced training in archeology and Near Eastern languages at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, UCLA, and CalState University, Long Beach. He was the first editor of the FARMS Book of Mormon Critical Text Project (1979–1987), and most recently presented a paper on ”Book of Mormon Theologies: A Thumbnail Sketch” at the 2012 annual meeting of the Society  for Mormon Philosophy and Theology (SMPT). He is currently a member of Grandview Stake and a veil worker at the Provo Temple."
• Robert F. Smith (Book of Mormon Onomasticon - BYU Library)
• Smith, Robert F. (Book of Mormon Central)
• etc

Perhaps now you know why.

Thanks.  Just so you know the comment was not critical or doubting. It was more for Robert to let me know.  Even when I do not agree with him i still think he seems pretty smart.

[Megalodon]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Thanks.  Just so you know the comment was not critical or doubting. It was more for Robert to let me know.  Even when I do not agree with him i still think he seems pretty smart.

De nada. I didn't take it as critical. And perhaps Robert wouldn't want to blow his own horn, so I blew it for him.  

[cinepro]

The whole Dehlin exMo crowd has morphed into something weird. I spent a bit of time in their Facebook community a year or two ago and found Dehlin to be pretty welcoming and accepting of my criticisms, jokes and barbs (even if through gritted teeth), but his more rabid followers went nuts. I was careful to never break any of the community rules, and was subject to all sorts of personal attacks and insults, and in the end I got booted. They have truly created their own fantasy world of conspiracy theories and delusions and get really, really mad if anyone questions even the slightest thing.

I honestly believe he is not enamored of the cult-like aspects of his followers (just as I believe the LDS GA's aren't fueled or dependent on the cult-like aspects of some LDS devotion), but nevertheless, it is a very weird and ironic trait for Dehlin-devotees to have. It's not surprising, of course, since such "tribalism" is a universal human trait. But it's still entertaining.

 

My favorite story about an unexpected "tribe" that formed around...rationalist Ayn Rand!?:

The Unlikeliest Cult in History

Edited March 8, 2022 by cinepro

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

I honestly believe he is not enamored of the cult-like aspects of his followers ...

I honestly believe he revels in them and, quite often, at least indirectly encourages them. But who really knows?

The fact that his usual response to almost any form of criticism is to publicly beg his followers to respond by telling him how much he's helped them suggests that, at minimum, he thrives on their adulation.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Navidad]

In the FWIW department - I am a card carrying Evangelical and before I came on this forum I had never heard of John Dehlin. And to this day, I have never heard of him except on this forum. If he had the tiniest bit of significance in the Evangelical community I think I would know who he is.

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

In the FWIW department - I am a card carrying Evangelical and before I came on this forum I had never heard of John Dehlin. And to this day, I have never heard of him except on this forum. If he had the tiniest bit of significance in the Evangelical community I think I would know who he is.

He would not be known in the Evangelical community.  His focus is LDS through his podcast Mormon Stories.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

He would not be known in the Evangelical community.  His focus is LDS through his podcast Mormon Stories.

I'm sorry. I thought the focus of this conversation is that he is anti-Mormon and trying to get people to "convert" to a different Christian experience. Is he simply a lapsed mad former member with no connections to another group? Thanks.

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Is he simply a lapsed mad former member with no connections to another group?

Basically, though he's had some success creating his own secular 'church', of which he serves as prophet and first elder.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Basically, though he's had some success creating his own secular 'church', of which he serves as prophet and first elder.

Not really.  Not at all.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I'm sorry. I thought the focus of this conversation is that he is anti-Mormon and trying to get people to "convert" to a different Christian experience. Is he simply a lapsed mad former member with no connections to another group? Thanks.

Many portray him as such but that is not my experience.  Here is the About part of the Mormon Stories web page.  Mormon Stories is what Dehlin started and still runs:

 

Quote

 

Founded in 2005, Mormon Stories podcast is the longest running and most popular Mormon-themed podcast.  Hosted by Dr. John Dehlin (Clinical/Counseling Psychology), Mormon Stories podcast seeks to understand, explore, challenge, and improve the Mormon experience through stories.  Some of the primary objectives of Mormon Stories podcast include:

1. Providing support to Mormons who are transitioning away from either orthodox Mormonism, or from Mormonism altogether, with a particular emphasis on:
   • Minimizing the anxiety, depression, and occasional suicidality that can accompany a transition away from religious orthodoxy.
   • Reducing the number of unnecessary divorces attributable to Mormon faith crises.
   • Creating a community of support for liberal/progressive and post-Mormons.
2. Building greater awareness regarding accurate LDS/Mormon church history, doctrine, and theology – so that both active, believing Mormons and investigators of the church can make informed decisions regarding their investment in, and engagement with the church.
3. Identifying opportunities for growth/improvement within the LDS church, and within broader Mormon culture.

Mormon Stories podcast operates in partnership with the Open Stories Foundation (a 501c3 non-profit), and obtained over 7.6 million podcast downloads and Facebook/Youtube views in 2019.  The work of Mormon Stories podcast has been featured in the New York Times, National Public Radio, Good Morning America, the Wall Street Journal, VH1, the Huffington Post, VICE NEWS, etc

If you are new to Mormon Stories podcast, a fantastic way to begin exploring the podcast is to begin with our Top 25 most important/popular episodes of all time.

Your feedback is important to us. Please let us know:

• What you love about Mormon Stories podcast.
• What topics you would like to see us cover.
• What types of guests you would like to see us bring on to Mormon Stories, and
• What we can do to help make Mormon Stories better.

 

 

•  

As you can see many here rather loathe Dehlin.  Me, I enjoy listening selectively to his podcasts based on topics and content. As you can see he is a bit of a lightening rod.  I have met him and talked with him but that was around 2007 to 2008.  It was tough time for me in my faith journey and I stumbled onto his podcast and was happy to find someone I could talk with.  He was still a member then and much softer in his stance towards the Church. He was excommunicated in 2015 for his podcasts and other criticism of the  LDS Church and it polices especially on LBGTQ issues. He has become more strident and negative towards the church since then.

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

Many portray him as such but that is not my experience.  Here is the About part of the Mormon Stories web page.  Mormon Stories is what Dehlin started and still runs:

 

•  

As you can see many here rather loathe Dehlin.  Me, I enjoy listening selectively to his podcasts based on topics and content. As you can see he is a bit of a lightening rod.  I have met him and talked with him but that was around 2007 to 2008.  It was tough time for me in my faith journey and I stumbled onto his podcast and was happy to find someone I could talk with.  He was still a member then and much softer in his stance towards the Church. He was excommunicated in 2015 for his podcasts and other criticism of the  LDS Church and it polices especially on LBGTQ issues. He has become more strident and negative towards the church since then.

Ok Thanks. Glad to know he is not an Evangelical gone mad!

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

Glad to know he is not an Evangelical gone mad!

From my vantage point, 'Evangelicals gone mad' are mostly a late 20th-century phenomenon in the 'anti-Mormon' space. Overwhelmingly, they have been supplanted by apostate members whose goal is to gently dismantle faith in Christ and replace it with some kind of 'rational' progressivism.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

From my vantage point, 'Evangelicals gone mad' are mostly a late 20th-century phenomenon in the 'anti-Mormon' space. Overwhelmingly, they have been supplanted by apostate members whose goal is to gently dismantle faith in Christ and replace it with some kind of 'rational' progressivism.

No there is no such goal.  The only goal is to share info so people can make informed decisions. And that seems a great threat to the LDS Church and many of its members, like you.

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No there is no such goal.  The only goal is to share info so people can make informed decisions. And that seems a great threat to the LDS Church and many of its members, like you.

A succinct summary of Dehlinite apologetics!

Edited March 11, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[JustAnAustralian]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The only goal is to share info so people can make informed decisions.

So I guess that's why the cesletter still contains claims that are outright false then?

Edited March 11, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[Teancum]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A succinct summary of Dehlinite apologetics!

I am not an apologist for Dehlin.  I just point out nonsense and you are full of it on this thread.