Dehlin v. Kwaku - An Update

[smac97]

By way of backstory for the Dehlin v. Kwaku drama:

1. In December 2020 Kwaku El, a young black Latter-day Saint, tweeted a link to a controversial video about John Dehlin.  The video was, I believe, originally made and posted by someone named Braden Herrmann (I am open to correction on that point). The YouTube video link is here: https://tinyurl.com/y45hjutg

2. For those of you who do not want to watch, the video is a partially dubbed-over scene from Inglourious Basterds, a 2009 film by Quentin Tarantino.  It's extremely violent, and involves a (fictitious) American commando team in WW2 made up of American Jews who sneak around behind enemy lines in Europe terrorizing Nazis.  In this scene a muscly Jewish guy literally beats a captured German soldier to death with a baseball bat, while the others cheer and laugh.  Very violent.  The video superimposes text on the scene labeling the lead commando as "FAIRMORMON" and the soon-to-be-beaten-to-death German soldier as "John Dehlin."  The video even dubs in "Hi everyone, this is John Dehlin" over a line spoken by the German soldier. Then the baseball-bad-wielding Jewish guy comes out and is text-labeled as "STONEXVI," and pokes at a medal pinned to the soldier's uniform, which is labeled "Mormon Stories Podcast."   The baseball-bad-wielding Jewish guy then raises his bat, which is labeled "TITS," and the massively violent beating to death happens.

"STONEXVI" is apparently a reference to one of Kwaku's YouTube channels.

"TITS" is apparently a reference to "This Is The Show," which was apparently going to be a series of YouTube videos posted to FAIR's channel.  I think this later fell apart, likely due to the controversy about the above.

3. The YouTube video was posted by MormonStories on December 4, 2020, presumably John Dehlin or someone working with/for him (since the video is still, as of February 2022, posted on the "MormonStories Podcast" channel) with the title "Kwaku El of FairMormon just tweeted this."  It also includes the following description:

Quote

Kwaku El of FairMormon just tweeted this.

(Warning. Super violent.)

A friend advised me to call the police. Your suggestions?

For the record, Kwaku is funded by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints via the More Good Foundation and FAIRMormon.

Your suggestions?

Dehlin also posted this on Facebook on 12/5/2020:

Quote

Dr. John Dehlin

December 5 at 12:39 PM · 

 

I took everyone’s advice. I called 911 and reported the following people:

Kwaku El
Cardon Ellis
Braden Herrmann

I told the dispatcher that at least two of the three are (as I understand it) employees and/or contractors of non-profits subsidized by the Mormon church (that being the More Good Foundation and FairMormon).

I’m waiting to hear back from the police. My family is highly distressed. Not fun. For the record, I only shared the videos publicly AFTER my kids found out. They follow Kwaku. Otherwise I would probably never have shared.

I’ve reported all of this to my sister, Julianne Hatton, who was on the FAIRMormon board up until a few days ago (though she says she knew nothing about this and has been trying to get off the board for many months). Not sure what she’ll do with the info.

Thanks to all who have shown support.

In other words, Dehlin went out of his way to give this story as much publicity as he could.

4. At the time we discussed this issue on this board here.  Part of the discussion was about how John Dehlin seemed to be at once A) acting like Kwaku tweeting a link to the video was a legitimate threat of violence against him (so much so that he (Dehlin) actually called 911 and reported Kwaku to the police), and B) inviting Kwaku to participate on his (Dehlin's) podcast.  See here (dated December 5, 2020) :

Quote

kwaku@thekwakuel

yesterday @johndehlin threatened to call the cops on @cardonellis and i.
then he asked Cardon to come on his talk show, and then he called the cops on us 😭😭

@MMormons has the breakdownyoutube.com

John Dehlin reached out!  Hey John! Come on the show!... with or without the cops!

6:10 PM · Dec 5, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

5. Apparently on that same day, 12/5/2020, Dehlin uploaded a video conversation he had between himself and a young woman about Kwaku (link here).  Here is my partial transcript of part of what this woman said to John about Kwaku:

Quote

"...is that he doesn't speak like a, like many black people do.  He has a very English vernacular.  He doesn't have a black dialect.  So he speaks like a proper white person raised in Utah.  So he's the perfect figure for Mormonism, because he's basically like, seems like a white person with dark skin.  The way he talks.  The things he likes.  The way he dresses.  So, yeah..."

We discussed this a bit as well.  See here.

6. Fast-forward to February 28, 2022, the YouTube channel "Midnight Mormons" just posted a video in which the review some of the above, which now includes an apology from Dehlin to Kwaku.  However, this is apparently not an apology for calling the police on him (or for the remarks above).  Instead, Dehlin is apologizing for remarks he made during a podcast "last Fall."  The Midnight Mormons video shows an excerpt of Dehlin's podcast remarks starting with Cardon Ellis (?) providing an introduction at the 3:19 mark.  A partial transcript:

Quote

Ellis: So the most prominent anti-mormon is a man by the name of John Dehlin, who runs an organization called Thrive.  And you may have heard of "the soft bigotry of low expectations."  In this interview, he said what I consider the most racist things ever said in 2020, or 2021.  And here they are.

{Video of Dehlin's remarks}: Super weird.  And I don't mean to attack anyone, but like, that an educated person of color, who's a teen or in their early 20s, in in 2018 or 2017 or whenever Kwaku converted, with the Internet, can you imagine an intelligent person of color ever deciding to join Mormonism?  Like, isn't that like, like I don't want to be mean or insulting, but isn't that story in and of itself kind of mind-blowing?  That's, like, some serious internalized hatred, self-hatred, because, like, how in the world can Mormonism not be racist?  Like, I'm racist...

{Video of young women quoted above}: ......is that he doesn't speak like a, like many black people do. He has a very English vernacular. He doesn't have a black dialect. So he speaks like a proper white person raised in Utah. So he's the perfect figure for Mormonism, because he's basically like, seems like a white person with dark skin. The way he talks. The things he likes. The way he dresses. So, yeah...

7. They show Dehlin's video apology starting at about the 10:56 mark (of the "Midnight Mormons" video).  Here is a direct link to Dehlin's apology video, which is 1:36 long.  My transcription:

Quote

Hey everyone.  I have an apology to make.  It's an apology to Kwaku El, and to all my friends of color who are of faith.  So, last Fall in a podcast interview I, we were talking about Kwaku, the Mormon apologist.  And I asked the question in the interview 'How in the world could an intelligent person of color join the Mormon Church in the modern era, in the Google era, given its racist past and present racism?'  And that's a super offensive and rude and insulting, and a racist thing to say.  So I own it, and I apologize for it, and I'm really sorry, Kwaku, for saying that.  And I apologize to all my friends of color or any Mormon of color for saying that.  I shouldn't have said it, and it was wrong.  The truth is, I don't even believe that.  I know that there are lots of reasons why people believe, why they have faith.  There are intellectual reasons, there are social reasons, there are emotional reasons, psychological reasons, lots of reasons.  So, full stop.  I'm really sorry, Kwaku.  I'm sorry to everyone, and I'll work to do better.  Thanks.

8. The "Midnight Mormons" panel notes that

• A) Dehlin posted his apology to his personal YouTube channel, rather than to the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel, which was where Dehlin posted the original and now-apologized-for video;
• B) Dehlin created this separate personal YouTube channel about 10 months ago (apparently about the time he posted the apology video);
• C) The apology video is the only video posted to this this channel;
• D) This channel has only 145 subscribers, as compared to the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel, which has 55,000+ subscribers; and
• E) Dehlin has removed the original and now-apologized-for video from the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel.

9. Cardon Ellis then asks Kwaku if he accepts Dehlin's apology.  Kwaku's response:

Quote

Cardon: Do you, Kwaku, accept that apology?

Kwaku: I do.  I'm a forgiving person.  You can't define someone's entire everything by one bad moment.  ... I'm not going to walk around like, 'John Dehlin is a racist bigot!'  I legitimately don't think he is.  I think he was just being stupid.  I think he's in a bubble.  Salt Lake City.  Woke, upper-middle-class Cottonwood Heights, caucasian people, right?  Their political love of {things like} Black Lives Matter.  We have to be allies, we have to be allies.  But the only black people they've seen are The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and my video . . . I don't find it as much racist as as I find it more demeaning.  'You have to think like me.'  He has this attitude for everyone, right?  Young white people he's looking at like 'Why on earth would you...' if they become LDS '... with the Church's racism, history and LGBT, misogyny and whatever?  How on earth could you become Mormon?  How are you not thinking like me?'  To me, this is an example of the selfishness that we see among pundits and podcasters.  It's more of an example of that, i think.

A few observiations and questions:

1. I am glad that Dehlin apologized, and that Kwaku has accepted Dehlin's apology.

2. I am a bit surprised to see Dehlin being, shall we say, circuitous in his apology.  He didn't post the apology on the Mormon Stories Podcast channel, where it would have received far more views and attention.  He instead created a separate channel, apparently for the sole purpose of posting his apology video.  It's also kind of hard to not infer that he did so because he did not want to draw attention to his prior remarks.  He has deleted the video of his remarks.  As the Midnight Mormons guys put it: "I don't believe that you can actually, honestly be sincere about your apology if you are doing your apology on a channel that only has 144 subscribers, and when the attack was made on a channel that had 55 thousand subscribers.  I think that's disingenuous." 

3. The "Midnight Mormons" video is, in the main, surprisingly good.  They compare Dehlin's apology with Brad Wilcox's (too long and too scattered to excerpt, but the whole video is only 26 minutes long).  

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 1, 2022 by smac97

[Rajah Manchou]

44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think he's in a bubble. Salt Lake City. Woke, upper-middle-class Cottonwood Heights, caucasian people, right? Their political love of {things like} Black Lives Matter.

good grief

[Hamba Tuhan]

Kwaku has this part exactly right:

Quote

I don't find it as much racist as as I find it more demeaning.  'You have to think like me.'  He has this attitude for everyone, right?

How many times on this forum have we been told that certain 'facts' compel one to conclude, for example, that the Church isn't what it claims to be or get schooled on supposedly 'true history' (my favourite, as one who holds a PhD in history!).

I've certainly encountered religious dogmatism, but there is nothing to compare to the 'enlightened' dogmatism of many apostate Saints.

A few years ago, one of my former housemates and I went camping. I could tell that something was off from the beginning. He was both less fun and less interesting. But it was only on the drive back home that he let me know that he'd left the Church. Then he pulled that offensively patronising 'I won't tell you what I've discovered because then you would leave the Church too' schtick. I called out the arrogance inherent in that statement and assured him that there was close-to-zero possibility that he knew anything I didn't already know. But he had to stick by the narrative that his deconversion hadn't been a choice in any way and that I would inevitably follow him into apostasy if he didn't mercifully leave me in my state of blissful ignorance. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Wow, such ridicules melodrama. Called John’s podcast once, he would only address the short version of what I had to say. This is because like all “talk shows”, callers must first give an outline of what you wish to discuss. All he did was give me about 5 seconds of air time, and then went on to debate himself, (alone with a guest that completed his “echo chamber” for that show) my question(s). I don’t fault him, after all talk shows on the radio, or all podcasts have to keep things moving toward the targeted audience. But like all talk shows, everything is just fodder for him to use, in order to make the host look good, and always in control of any and all narratives. Only when he is speaking to someone live, is he forced to listen and reply, and when I say “he”, I am speak of all such hosts. The end result is always the same, claim both “authority and victim hood”, at the same time. This requires a certain skill set he has cultivated over many years. If he did feel threatened, he could have just quietly notified the Police, but this would make it harder to (again), claim both authority and victim hood, at the same time, and to also boost ratings, and sell air time. It has been such a long time since I called him, or listened to his show, I forget. Does he have sponsors, is he able to sell airtime? Has he been able to use his opposition to the Church into a full time business, the same way Matt Slick has done, by attacking other belief systems? These questions can be rhetorical, but if someone knows the truth, I would like to know. 
 

Anyway, nuff said…by me anyway. Many years ago, I gave up fighting with those who do not believe as I do. It was (years ago) a waste of time, and it still is! Only the Holy Spirt can change the mind (more importantly the heart) of those who do not believe, as I have no such power or ability. Nor do I have any fight left in me! 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Kwaku has this part exactly right:

A few years ago, one of my former housemates and I went camping. I could tell that something was off from the beginning. He was both less fun and less interesting. But it was only on the drive back home that he let me know that he'd left the Church. Then he pulled that offensively patronising 'I won't tell you what I've discovered because then you would leave the Church too' schtick. I called out the arrogance inherent in that statement and assured him that there was close-to-zero possibility that he knew anything I didn't already know. But he had to stick by the narrative that his deconversion hadn't been a choice in any way and that I would inevitably follow him into apostasy if he didn't mercifully leave me in my state of blissful ignorance. 

Wow, I have heard the same from many others, it seems to be like almost everyone commits that narrative to heart, much like a requirement to pass through a different vail. This to use it on the unsuspecting, member who still has a testimony, and who loves the Gospel. I had a friend, what I thought was a very good friend. One day after rehearsing this same reasoning to me, he asked me to please watch a video with him. He was certain that it would shake my testimony to the core, and that I would follow him into apostasy. His dear wife said to me, “Bill, you don’t need to watch that video, I watched part of it and I hate it”. Anyway, thinking our friendship could handle any disagreement, I watched anyway. When I began to question it, and point out misrepresentations of our beliefs, his countenance changed before me very eyes. He tried to hide it, but I could see the anger bubbling up inside him. The two of us used to barter work, and I always made sure he was more rewarded in that barter system. Within two weeks, he had gone to my Bishop, telling him that I owed him money, and would not pay it, and I was “unfit to be a Priesthood holder, or serve in the Church”. After my Bishop told me, I called him and told him “I will pay you whatever you think I should”, but he never gave me an amount, nor would he accept any check I sent. Upon his death, we visited his wife who was distraught at the man he had become in the last two years of his life. She told us that his hatred for the Church, had made his so bitter. We were friends with his wife until her death. It was all heartbreaking 💔 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

By way of backstory for the Dehlin v. Kwaku drama:

1. In December 2020 Kwaku El, a young black Latter-day Saint, tweeted a link to a controversial video about John Dehlin.  The video was, I believe, originally made and posted by someone named Braden Herrmann (I am open to correction on that point). The YouTube video link is here: https://tinyurl.com/y45hjutg

2. For those of you who do not want to watch, the video is a partially dubbed-over scene from Inglourious Basterds, a 2009 film by Quentin Tarantino.  It's extremely violent, and involves a (fictitious) American commando team in WW2 made up of American Jews who sneak around behind enemy lines in Europe terrorizing Nazis.  In this scene a muscly Jewish guy literally beats a captured German soldier to death with a baseball bat, while the others cheer and laugh.  Very violent.  The video superimposes text on the scene labeling the lead commando as "FAIRMORMON" and the soon-to-be-beaten-to-death German soldier as "John Dehlin."  The video even dubs in "Hi everyone, this is John Dehlin" over a line spoken by the German soldier. Then the baseball-bad-wielding Jewish guy comes out and is text-labeled as "STONEXVI," and pokes at a medal pinned to the soldier's uniform, which is labeled "Mormon Stories Podcast."   The baseball-bad-wielding Jewish guy then raises his bat, which is labeled "TITS," and the massively violent beating to death happens.

"STONEXVI" is apparently a reference to one of Kwaku's YouTube channels.

"TITS" is apparently a reference to "This Is The Show," which was apparently going to be a series of YouTube videos posted to FAIR's channel.  I think this later fell apart, likely due to the controversy about the above.

3. The YouTube video was posted by MormonStories on December 4, 2020, presumably John Dehlin or someone working with/for him (since the video is still, as of February 2022, posted on the "MormonStories Podcast" channel) with the title "Kwaku El of FairMormon just tweeted this."  It also includes the following description:

Dehlin also posted this on Facebook on 12/5/2020:

In other words, Dehlin went out of his way to give this story as much publicity as he could.

4. At the time we discussed this issue on this board here.  Part of the discussion was about how John Dehlin seemed to be at once A) acting like Kwaku tweeting a link to the video was a legitimate threat of violence against him (so much so that he (Dehlin) actually called 911 and reported Kwaku to the police), and B) inviting Kwaku to participate on his (Dehlin's) podcast.  See here (dated December 5, 2020) :

5. Apparently on that same day, 12/5/2020, Dehlin uploaded a video conversation he had between himself and a young woman about Kwaku (link here).  Here is my partial transcript of part of what this woman said to John about Kwaku:

We discussed this a bit as well.  See here.

 

6. Fast-forward to February 28, 2020, the YouTube channel "Midnight Mormons" just posted a video in which the review some of the above, which now includes an apology from Dehlin to Kwaku.  However, this is apparently not an apology for calling the police on him (or for the remarks above).  Instead, Dehlin is apologizing for remarks he made during a podcast "last Fall."  The Midnight Mormons video shows an excerpt of Dehlin's podcast remarks starting with Cardon Ellis (?) providing an introduction at the 3:19 mark.  A partial transcript:

7. They show Dehlin's video apology starting at about the 10:56 mark (of the "Midnight Mormons" video).  Here is a direct link to Dehlin's apology video, which is 1:36 long.  My transcription:

8. The "Midnight Mormons" panel notes that

• A) Dehlin posted his apology to his personal YouTube channel, rather than to the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel, which was where Dehlin posted the original and now-apologized-for video;
• B) Dehlin created this separate personal YouTube channel about 10 months ago (apparently about the time he posted the apology video);
• C) The apology video is the only video posted to this this channel;
• D) This channel has only 145 subscribers, as compared to the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel, which has 55,000+ subscribers; and
• E) Dehlin has removed the original and now-apologized-for video from the "Mormon Stories Podcast" channel.

9. Cardon Ellis then asks Kwaku if he accepts Dehlin's apology.  Kwaku's response:

A few observiations and questions:

1. I am glad that Dehlin apologized, and that Kwaku has accepted Dehlin's apology.

2. I am a bit surprised to see Dehlin being, shall we say, circuitous in his apology.  He didn't post the apology on the Mormon Stories Podcast channel, where it would have received far more views and attention.  He instead created a separate channel, apparently for the sole purpose of posting his apology video.  It's also kind of hard to not infer that he did so because he did not want to draw attention to his prior remarks.  He has deleted the video of his remarks.  As the Midnight Mormons guys put it: "I don't believe that you can actually, honestly be sincere about your apology if you are doing your apology on a channel that only has 144 subscribers, and when the attack was made on a channel that had 55 thousand subscribers.  I think that's disingenuous." 

3. The "Midnight Mormons" video is, in the main, surprisingly good.  They compare Dehlin's apology with Brad Wilcox's (too long and too scattered to excerpt, but the whole video is only 26 minutes long).  

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I didn't know that Dehlin started Thrive.  

Also, I think that despite what some people believe--especially some people who used to be members but are now antagonistic towards the church--a lot of negative character traits or personality traits that are often blamed on mormonism are actually just weaknesses of character in the individual, and I think that we see this with Dehlin a bit.

He has been accused of some of the same stuff that he likes to go after the church for (racism, misogyny, etc.).  At this point it might be helpful to recognize that some people are just jerks in certain ways.  The church didn't make them that way, and they don't stop being that way when they leave.  

 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

good grief

 By way of clarification, that is a quotation, it is not my words.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I didn't know that Dehlin started Thrive.  

Also, I think that despite what some people believe--especially some people who used to be members but are now antagonistic towards the church--a lot of negative character traits or personality traits that are often blamed on mormonism are actually just weaknesses of character in the individual, and I think that we see this with Dehlin a bit.

He has been accused of some of the same stuff that he likes to go after the church for (racism, misogyny, etc.).  At this point it might be helpful to recognize that some people are just jerks in certain ways.  The church didn't make them that way, and they don't stop being that way when they leave.  

 

Well said, very well said. 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 By way of clarification, that is a quotation, it is not my words.

Kwaku is not particularly gentle at times.   
 

What is the significance of Cottonwood Heights?  I am guessing upper middle class primarily white neighborhood?  Any chance it is gated?

From wiki:

Quote

The racial makeup of the county was 86.57% non-Hispanic White, 0.81% Black, 0.60% Native American, 4.51% Asian, 0.88% Pacific Islander, and 2.34% from two or more races. 4.29% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

I really want to know why Post Malone is currently living there.

Added:  real estate is high end not just for .Utah, but for the US.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Kwaku is not particularly gentle at times.   
 

What is the significance of Cottonwood Heights?  I am guessing upper middle class primarily white neighborhood?  Any chance it is gated?

From wiki:

I really want to know why Post Malone is currently living there.

Added:  real estate is high end not just for .Utah, but for the US.

Post Malone also has a house in Morgan. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

...............................

Quote

I know that there are lots of reasons why people believe, why they have faith.  There are intellectual reasons, there are social reasons, there are emotional reasons, psychological reasons, lots of reasons.  So, full stop.

.............................

That quote from John Dehlin admits that there are a range of reasons why people adopt the LDS faith.  The reverse is also true, even though I get many denials of the fact on this board -- people unwilling to admit that there is a wide variety of reasons why LDS members might leave the faith.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[smac97]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Kwaku is not particularly gentle at times.   
 

What is the significance of Cottonwood Heights?  I am guessing upper middle class primarily white neighborhood?  Any chance it is gated?

From wiki:

I really want to know why Post Malone is currently living there.

He likes guns.  And he's a prepper. He's building a bunker.  And Utah is pretty.  And it's not SoCal. 

From this article:

Quote

A 2018 resurfaced clip of Post Malone — in which he referenced the United States government as “the biggest lie in the world” and urged people to “move out to the country” — is making its way around TikTok.

In the clip, which has amassed over 2 million views, the “Hollywood’s Bleeding” artist discussed the need to escape from cities in order to protect oneself from the government.

Around that time, the now-26-year-old singer did just that — he purchased a five-bedroom, seven-bathroom Utah abode for $3,093,750 under the LLC “Wow Cool House,” property records show.

Located in Salt Lake City, the residence spans almost 13,000 square feet and is situated on nearly 7 acres of land. 

“Move somewhere, because whenever martial law is declared … whenever your credit cards fail, whenever your banks fail … you have three days to get out of where you are because that’s when they’re coming for you,” said Malone, born Austin Post, in the February 2018 interview with Montreality. “That’s the big move. That’s checkmate right there. And they think they have you.”

He then encouraged people to make a move themselves and “get your scraps. Stand up for yourself. Build a tower. Build a long road where you can see them coming. Don’t give up, America.”

 

In a separate 2017 interview featured on the H3 Podcast — as Malone was in contract to buy the Utah residence — he revealed he would turn the home into an apocalypse-proof shelter and build underground quarters. 

“I’m going to put in, like, 30 bunk beds,” said Malone. “It’s free country out there. Like, you can buy suppressors in Utah. You can do open-carry. Walk into the grocery store with a handgun on your hip. Cowboy s–t. I can’t wait.”

Initially built in 1986, Malone’s home boasts canyon, mountain and city views and is located at the mouth of Cottonwood Canyon. 

Features include floor-to-ceiling windows, separate guest quarters and a private office, which backs into thousands of acres of conservation land, the previous listing notes. 

The expansive living room features a bar, and the gourmet chef’s kitchen comes with state-of-the-art appliances leading to a family room with an informal dining area.

Amenities include a wine cellar, a fitness room, an outdoor fireplace, basketball court, a pool and a hot tub with an outdoor kitchen.

In the recently resurfaced 2018 interview, the rapper called out “the f–king US government” as the “biggest lie,” adding it is it “not what it used to be.”

“It used to be so sick, and about the people, and about freedom, and all that s–t,” he added. “But now it’s just bulls–t. Now it’s a f–king reality show.”

Malone also vaguely predicted that there would be a lot of “weird s–t that happens within our lifetime” on the podcast. 

“It’s going to be fun until the world ends,” he continued. “But whenever the world ends, it’s going to be functional.”

I have made emergency preparedness a hobby, but the end-of-the-world alarmism is pretty offputting.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 1, 2022 by smac97

[kimpearson]

I think the fact that this is the second post recently about John Dehlin shows that say what you want, John's popularity is growing.  The test will be time.  Does anyone even really hear much anymore about Denver Snuffer, Kate Kelly?  They are still out there but seem to be followed only by their ardent believers.  In 5 years, will we even care about John Dehlin.  John can go after the Church but the modern Church has been around for almost 200 years and isn't going to disappear.  The Church has something people continue to want.  Does John Dehlin have something people will continue to want?  Only time can answer that question. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

think the fact that this is the second post recently about John Dehlin shows that say what you want, John's popularity is growing

Not really evidence (he may be getting more popular or not, not been paying attention to that side of things).  Dehlin pops up here a lot IMO because some of us have a history with him (for myself not a particularly good one, though indirectly).  He used to post on the board as well, so he is someone many of us pay attention to even for obscure reasons.  And controversy, which has been the reason for past threads and is the reason for this one, is not an indicator of popularity. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

... A few years ago, one of my former housemates and I went camping. I could tell that something was off from the beginning. He was both less fun and less interesting. But it was only on the drive back home that he let me know that he'd left the Church. Then he pulled that offensively patronising 'I won't tell you what I've discovered because then you would leave the Church too' schtick. I called out the arrogance inherent in that statement and assured him that there was close-to-zero possibility that he knew anything I didn't already know. But he had to stick by the narrative that his deconversion hadn't been a choice in any way and that I would inevitably follow him into apostasy if he didn't mercifully leave me in my state of blissful ignorance. 

Poor, poor you!   If only you knew!

[Maureen]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

...6. Fast-forward to February 28, 2020,...

Fast-forward? ☺ I think you possibly mean 2022.

M.

[latterdaytemplar]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I really want to know why Post Malone is currently living there.

  

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Kwaku is not particularly gentle at times.   
 

What is the significance of Cottonwood Heights?  I am guessing upper middle class primarily white neighborhood?  Any chance it is gated?

From wiki:

I really want to know why Post Malone is currently living there.

He likes guns.  And he's a prepper. He's building a bunker.  And Utah is pretty.  And it's not SoCal. 

He also has a home here in St George.

Edited March 1, 2022 by latterdaytemplar

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Kwaku has this part exactly right:

How many times on this forum have we been told that certain 'facts' compel one to conclude, for example, that the Church isn't what it claims to be or get schooled on supposedly 'true history' (my favourite, as one who holds a PhD in history!).

How many times have we heard on this forum that those who make a determination the church is not what it claims focus on the negative, are reactive, had false expectations or took things too literally.

 

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've certainly encountered religious dogmatism, but there is nothing to compare to the 'enlightened' dogmatism of many apostate Saints.

We all see the world through our own lens i guess but I sure see a lot of unhealthy dogmatism from some here as well as over the top piety.

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A few years ago, one of my former housemates and I went camping. I could tell that something was off from the beginning. He was both less fun and less interesting. But it was only on the drive back home that he let me know that he'd left the Church. Then he pulled that offensively patronising 'I won't tell you what I've discovered because then you would leave the Church too' schtick. I called out the arrogance inherent in that statement and assured him that there was close-to-zero possibility that he knew anything I didn't already know. But he had to stick by the narrative that his deconversion hadn't been a choice in any way and that I would inevitably follow him into apostasy if he didn't mercifully leave me in my state of blissful ignorance. 

Maybe when you call someone arrogant you might want to self reflect on your comments above.

[latterdaytemplar]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

I took everyone’s advice. I called 911 and reported the following people:

Kwaku El
Cardon Ellis
Braden Herrmann

It might be worth noting as well that StoneXVI published a video where one of the hosts called the Salt Lake City police department to request a transcript or recording of the supposed 911 report; the employee on the other end of the phone call stated that she could not find record of any such report.

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I didn't know that Dehlin started Thrive.  

He didn't. At least on his own. He has worked with a couple of well off $$ wise disaffected members that are bankrolling Thrive.  Dehlin is on the board but I do not think he started it.

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Also, I think that despite what some people believe--especially some people who used to be members but are now antagonistic towards the church--a lot of negative character traits or personality traits that are often blamed on mormonism are actually just weaknesses of character in the individual, and I think that we see this with Dehlin a bit.

Everyone has issues and baggage.  

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

He has been accused of some of the same stuff that he likes to go after the church for (racism, misogyny, etc.).  At this point it might be helpful to recognize that some people are just jerks in certain ways.  The church didn't make them that way, and they don't stop being that way when they leave.  

 

Often accused unjustly.  And the true believers here just eat it up.

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That quote from John Dehlin admits that there are a range of reasons why people adopt the LDS faith.  The reverse is also true, even though I get many denials of the fact on this board -- people unwilling to admit that there is a wide variety of reasons why LDS members might leave the faith.

I admit there is a wide variety of reasons why people leave the church. I just tire of so many who think that the numbers who were very devout and leave over the truth claims and historical problems is very small.

[boblloyd91]

9 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I think the fact that this is the second post recently about John Dehlin shows that say what you want, John's popularity is growing.  The test will be time.  Does anyone even really hear much anymore about Denver Snuffer, Kate Kelly?  They are still out there but seem to be followed only by their ardent believers.  In 5 years, will we even care about John Dehlin.  John can go after the Church but the modern Church has been around for almost 200 years and isn't going to disappear.  The Church has something people continue to want.  Does John Dehlin have something people will continue to want?  Only time can answer that question. 

I definitely think we're seeing some major societal changes in regards to how people see spiritual truth claims, which is why we're hearing a lot more about people leaving the church. Like you said though, there are certain things that the church provides that aren't easily replicated (what those are depends on the person's interpretation). I will also be interested to see how things evolve over the years

[Calm]

1 hour ago, latterdaytemplar said:

  

He also has a home here in St George.

Are you sure that isn’t a rumor?  Unless I am misreading a realtor listing the house is still for sale.

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2020/09/18/hsr-spc-realtor-for-unique-washington-city-listing-says-it-could-be-future-home-of-a-celebrity-but-not-post-malone/#.Yh4vXy1Hbi0

Can’t find a confirmation he actually owns a home in Morgan as opposed to being a visitor (and likely renting).

https://www.deseret.com/2018/9/24/20654237/post-malone-visits-utah-while-on-vacation-morgan-county-asked-people-to-stop-bothering-him

Pretty sure this refers to the Cottonwood one, but may be wrong though and he had one in Morgan as well while he built the other.

Quote

 he bought a home in northern Utah that cost about $3 million

https://www.fox13now.com/2018/09/21/morgan-county-officials-ask-residents-to-stop-bothering-rapper-post-malone-who-is-visiting-the-county-on-vacation/  This says “residence he was staying at”.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you sure that isn’t a rumor?  Unless I am misreading a realtor listing the house is still for sale.

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2020/09/18/hsr-spc-realtor-for-unique-washington-city-listing-says-it-could-be-future-home-of-a-celebrity-but-not-post-malone/#.Yh4vXy1Hbi0

Post Malone is easily recognized, and at least in my area, is loved. On a FB group I belong to "You Know You're From Bountiful If..." they have posts joking around that Post Malone was in certain restaurants or sightings of him. He likes to eat at certain ones, but made up ones too, haha. 

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, smac97 said:

A few observiations and questions:

1. I am glad that Dehlin apologized, and that Kwaku ha and s accepted Dehlin's apology.

Yes that was decent of them both.  However, the Kwaku video was frankly despicable. And I do not blame Dehlin for getting the police involved. Dehlin is a public figure and is controversial.  He has had threats, he has had his care keyes, etc. So yea I can see him being nervous and scared. And that fact that when Kwaku made the video it was associated with FAIR, quite frankly is appalling to me, and surprising.

 

14 hours ago, smac97 said:

2. I am a bit surprised to see Dehlin being, shall we say, circuitous in his apology.  He didn't post the apology on the Mormon Stories Podcast channel, where it would have received far more views and attention.  He instead created a separate channel, apparently for the sole purpose of posting his apology video.  It's also kind of hard to not infer that he did so because he did not want to draw attention to his prior remarks.  He has deleted the video of his remarks.  As the Midnight Mormons guys put it: "I don't believe that you can actually, honestly be sincere about your apology if you are doing your apology on a channel that only has 144 subscribers, and when the attack was made on a channel that had 55 thousand subscribers.  I think that's disingenuous."

I recall when this happened and the follow up apology. I am pretty sure I heard Dehlin talk about it and apologize on a MS podcast, but I could be wrong. But I am not a YouTube user much so I would be surprised if I hears it there.

14 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

 

 

3. The "Midnight Mormons" video is, in the main, surprisingly good.  They compare Dehlin's apology with Brad Wilcox's (too long and too scattered to excerpt, but the whole video is only 26 minutes long).  

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Wait they Midnight Mormon children just did a video on this to compare it to Wilcox's apology?  Seems like they are digging up old news.  Didn't this issue happen over a year or two ago?