Members and Temple in Kyiv Ukraine

[Calm]

Stealing….is it stealing if you take the gun of someone trying to mug you.  I think not.

This is simply an unofficial transfer of ownership.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

Stealing….is it stealing if you take the gun of someone trying to mug you.  I think not.

This is simply an unofficial transfer of ownership.

I want there to be a comedy sitcom about a small town in Ukraine that has petty “Hatfield and McCoy” disputes over farm borders and local policy and they settle their problems through tank duels.

Call it “Tanks for All the Laughs”

[The Nehor]

This could end soon. At least the threat. The fallout will trigger a lot more situations.

The strikes are beginning in Russia. Reports are that the Russian army units are virtually out of food and fuel and there is no logistical support network to get more to the front. I am hearing that Sunday or Monday should be the breaking point. Then a lot of retreats and mass surrenders. Ukraine is already retaking ground. Russia is trying to hold about morale showing they are shipping antiquated tanks from the Far East but it will be four or five days at least before they arrive and I doubt they have what they need to use them in any case. New planes have arrived in Ukraine and the air war is shifting. Ukraine might have numerical superiority in the air and I can’t believe I am saying that.

There were ceasefires for humanitarian reasons but they have largely broken down due to violations. Most of these are attributed to the Russians but this is probably more due to the confusion and lack of communication and not deliberate action.

Visa and Mastercard just cut off all transactions in Russia. A lot of panic buying in Russia.

[rongo]

I think this will last for years, with no decisive outcome (and casualties and misery slow-walking through the years, with bombings and military operations continuing). Russia/Putin won't want to lose face with a full withdrawal (talk about humiliating), and Ukraine doesn't have the numbers or the means to drive them fully out (without help, which NATO et. al. are loathe to give because they don't want this to blow up and spread). I don't think that weapons alone will do it,nor do I think the sanctions alone can force this to end decisively.

 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think this will last for years, with no decisive outcome (and casualties and misery slow-walking through the years, with bombings and military operations continuing). Russia/Putin won't want to lose face with a full withdrawal (talk about humiliating), and Ukraine doesn't have the numbers or the means to drive them fully out (without help, which NATO et. al. are loathe to give because they don't want this to blow up and spread). I don't think that weapons alone will do it,nor do I think the sanctions alone can force this to end decisively.

 

I saw an article that said that the Russian invading forces are somewhere around 100,000 but that there are over 40 million Ukrainians.  Even if Russian "wins" the war, they don't have the numbers to maintain or hold a hostile territory, especially one that has some unsecured borders.  Even if all the noncombatants flee the cities, that would still leave a lot of armed citizens on their own turf.  With some of the deepest subway systems in the world.

If Russia wins, the fighting would likely continue for years.

[boblloyd91]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This could end soon. At least the threat. The fallout will trigger a lot more situations.

The strikes are beginning in Russia. Reports are that the Russian army units are virtually out of food and fuel and there is no logistical support network to get more to the front. I am hearing that Sunday or Monday should be the breaking point. Then a lot of retreats and mass surrenders. Ukraine is already retaking ground. Russia is trying to hold about morale showing they are shipping antiquated tanks from the Far East but it will be four or five days at least before they arrive and I doubt they have what they need to use them in any case. New planes have arrived in Ukraine and the air war is shifting. Ukraine might have numerical superiority in the air and I can’t believe I am saying that.

There were ceasefires for humanitarian reasons but they have largely broken down due to violations. Most of these are attributed to the Russians but this is probably more due to the confusion and lack of communication and not deliberate action.

Visa and Mastercard just cut off all transactions in Russia. A lot of panic buying in Russia.

This is interesting news. I dare say even hopeful news.

[Rain]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:25 PM, Rain said:

I've been wondering about this.   Not sure how to word this, but I'll try.  Ultimately, the goal of the community serving refugees is to get them back into their own country or back to their homes if they are just displaced somewhere in their own countries, assuming they can go back safely.  Obviously that is never going to happen in many cases for one reason or another.

As I have watched all this go down I have thought there is a good chance in comparison to other situations of that being a possibility. 

With the legal stuff in the US if a "refugee" makes it here there is a pathway to citizenship.  It is meant to be a permanent thing.  Most of the Afghans coming here are "parolees" (hate that term, bad connotation) which currently doesn't have a system past 2 years. Many people are trying to get the Afghan Adjustment Act passed so that they will have a similar citizenship path.  It's just very obvious that it won't be safe for many of these people for quite some time to go back to Afghanistan.

So I've wondered if countries shouldn't be thinking of something more temporary for those in the Ukraine, at least for the time being until we can see it will be difficult for them to go back to the Ukraine.

Just read this in one of my refugee emails from the UNHCR (The UN Refugee Agency).

Quote

 EU Interior Ministers agreed on Thursday to trigger the Temporary Protection Directive. Once implemented, it will provide Ukrainians and third country nationals with refugee or permanent residence status with immediate protection and access to housing and other benefits in the EU for up to one year, without needing to go through individual asylum procedures. If the conflict continues, or refugees cannot return safely, the status could be extended for up to three years.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This could end soon.

We are clearly reading very different reporting. I hope yours is more accurate ...

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We are clearly reading very different reporting. I hope yours is more accurate ...

I believe the info I have comes from close to intelligence sources based on the source if that makes sense. I have to say I give the US intelligence agencies credit on this one. Turns out when the CIA and other agencies are actually working in their original mandate instead of toppling governments or trying to hunt terrorists they actually do a pretty good job. The intelligence was fed to the right people who disseminated it to the right political leaders and they used it to announce enemy intentions in advance and neutered their rationalizations and enabled preparations. Based on Ukraine’s successes they are also doing an impressive job of getting intelligence quickly to the people who can use it on the ground.

Lest I be accused of being too optimistic this is going to hit a lot of the world hard. Russia and Ukraine are going to be producing a lot less food and food shortages were already projected before the conflict started. Having two states that export a lot of grain (both are top 5 grain exporters) in conflict is going to hurt. Unless this ends quickly Ukraine’s planting season will not be normal and it probably won’t be normal even if it does stop. Russia’s economy tanking may mean grain shortages coming from there too. It will likely be worse than 2008 when food shortages were one of the precipitating factors causing the Arab Spring uprisings. Afghanistan is already starving.

 

[JustAnAustralian]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:33 PM, Wilderland said:

It’s still standing, and appears untouched.

What's the source of that photo? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[bsjkki]

Putin says the sanctions are an act of war. Americans and Brits told to leave Russia. Are the missionaries out of Russia? With the planes shut down, it’s very difficult to get out of Russia now. 

 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Putin says the sanctions are an act of war. Americans and Brits told to leave Russia. Are the missionaries out of Russia? With the planes shut down, it’s very difficult to get out of Russia now. 

 

 

The missionaries are gone. I wouldn’t worry too much. Putin has been calling everything a provocation or an act of war.

[bsjkki]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The missionaries are gone. I wouldn’t worry too much. Putin has been calling everything a provocation or an act of war.

I knew they were out of Ukraine. Could not find a statement on Russia. I knew no proselytizing was allowed for years.  Did missionaries return to Russia after covid? 

*Found an article. Had to switch ‘missionary’ for ‘volunteer.’ In the search.
https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-jesus-christ-latter-day-saints-says-all-american-volunteers-have-left-russia-missionaries-ukraine

Edited March 6, 2022 by bsjkki

[Megalodon]

I find this explanation of what is going on to be fairly explanatory.

 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Why would God answer the prayers of someone who doesn't believe in Him? But to answer your question: These things must needs be.

But many who do believe are likely praying.  And have been praying. Likely hundreds of millions.  But I see you are unable to answer my questions meaningfully.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am. More than most other buildings anyways. It is a symbol and symbols have power even if you discount any divine power.

Well I do not hope it is destroyed but I am certainly much more concerned about the well being of the people. I guess one can do both.  

[Calm]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sister-eubank-horasis

 

Quote

“We have members in all the countries affected,” said Sharon Eubank, First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency and president of Latter-day Saint Charities. “We have members in Russia who are feeling the difficult effects of sanctions. We have members in Poland and Germany and Slovakia and Hungary and Moldova and Russia. They’re all receiving enormous amounts of refugees and generously giving the help that they can. And we have members in Ukraine who are facing impossible choices in the destruction of their beautiful country.”

Quote

“It will take authentic religion to approach radical problems,” Sister Eubank said. “Authentic Islam will be much better at combating some of the elements that may be destructive. Authentic Christianity will be better at reaching toward radical elements of [Christianity]. This is the opportunity that we have. Faith is actually the answer.”

 

[Wilderland]

14 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

What's the source of that photo? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Photographer’s name is Alex Lourie. I don’t believe he has posted the photo online. He and my daughter are friends on Instagram and he knows she is a member of the church so he sent her the photo.

[JustAnAustralian]

27 minutes ago, Wilderland said:

I don’t believe he has posted the photo online. He and my daughter are friends on Instagram and he knows she is a member of the church so he sent her the photo.

Thanks.

[longview]

On 3/4/2022 at 11:45 PM, The Nehor said:

[The Nehor]

 

[Nofear]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sister-eubank-horasis
 

 

My take away, if you want to help Ukraine now, don't donate it to the Church's humanitarian fund. The donations I made two years are helping, but nothing more recent. ("Sister Eubank said the Church humanitarian arm keeps a two-year reserve of funding to enable the faith to nimbly respond to crises.")

But, I myself will continue to contribute because I'm certain there will be yet another disaster around the corner. I am quite pleased with and proud of the Church's humanitarian arm. We endeavored to be prepared. “[Having funds in place] allowed us to pre-position food and water several weeks ago,” she said. “It allows us to be right on the border with what the people need and be responsive because the needs change every single day as the situation goes forward.”

That all said, there are also immediate responses going on more locally and we are encouraged to work with other organizations too for the here and now. "'Members throughout the world are invited as church and neighborhood communities to independently engage in activities that they feel would assist in this effort,' Ottiker said, assuring that the Church is highly committed to assist those in need and that Latter-day Charities is actively engaged in that effort."
https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/2022-03-06/how-the-church-its-leaders-members-in-europe-are-providing-aid-and-relief-245265

Edited March 7, 2022 by Nofear

[The Nehor]

Russia has declared a list of unfriendly nations.

Read that list of nations very carefully. Then we wait for China to throw the inevitable fit.  

[smac97]

A Tribune article about a small Russian-speaking branch in SLC: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/03/04/emotions-were-too-strong/

Quote

It was the first time Veronica Clark attended the Russian-speaking Latter-day Saint branch in Salt Lake City.

“I had to be with my people,” Clark, a Ukrainian student at Utah Valley University, said about commuting 40 minutes to a meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Sunday.

The congregation includes Ukrainians, Russians, immigrants from former East bloc countries, returned missionaries from Slavic-speaking nations and American spouses. The branch, which is smaller than a typical Latter-day Saint ward, has roughly 100 members who regularly attend.

Amid the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Clark said she felt prompted to worship with other Ukrainian Latter-day Saints in a language spoken back home. She wanted to surround herself with fellow Ukrainians as they collectively worry about and pray for safety in their country.

I served my mission in Taiwan.  I have never been to China.  My perspective on China is therefore influenced by my affection for Taiwan and my dislike of the oppressive Communist regime in China.  Nevertheless, I also have friends with strong ties to China, including a Chinese citizen who has joined the Church and lives here with her children while her husband lives in China.

If China invades Taiwan, I think we would see similar struggles for members of the Church who have ties to Taiwan and members with ties to China.

Quote

Some congregants reverently sat in the chapel at 142 W. 200 North, kitty-corner from the Conference Center, with a blue and yellow Ukrainian flag painted on their faces. Others wore vyshyvanka, a traditional Ukrainian shirt, as a sign of solidarity for what the people of Ukraine are enduring. Menacing bombs. Crowded shelters. Mass migrations. And weepy goodbyes as families send loved ones off to battle.

Many of the members were sleep-deprived from clinging to their phones day and night, awaiting the latest update as tensions escalated.

During the last worship service in the chapel before moving to a different building several blocks away at 225 W. 500 North, branch President Gregory Brinton called for unity among the members. He encouraged all to leave their personal feelings about the Russia-Ukraine conflict outside the meetinghouse, stating that the church is “a place where everyone is welcome.”

“We need to be full of love and kindness,” Brinton preached from the pulpit, “no matter where we are from or where we fall politically.”

The church’s governing First Presidency has been guarded in its comments as well.

Church President Russell M. Nelson and his two counselors issued a news release calling for peace but stopped short of naming Russia or Ukraine.

“We pray that this armed conflict will end quickly, that the controversies will end peacefully and that peace will prevail among nations and within our own hearts,” the release stated. “We plead with world leaders to seek for such resolutions and peace.”

I wonder how the Church handled such things during World War II.

Quote

Directly after Brinton’s remarks, however, the benediction at the branch’s services centered on Ukraine. The man who prayed was clear about his plea — asking God to help Ukraine and to “please keep them safe from [Vladimir] Putin’s regime.”

For Russian member Sasha Pachev, the request from their lay leader to refrain from discussing the attacks felt nearly impossible.

“We all knew we weren’t supposed to talk about it,” said Pachev, who reared in Moscow and moved to Utah in 1993, “but emotions were too strong.”

Wow.  This is really difficult.  

Quote

Those words rang true to Vasil Osipenko, a branch member who was raised in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv and moved to Utah 15 years ago.

“I knew that there should not be contention,” he said, “at least from my side.”

Since the first bomb hit his homeland last week, Osipenko hadn’t stopped thinking about his family and the unfolding events. He, along with other members, spent Sunday fasting with a running prayer for Ukraine on their mind.
...
Osipenko said tensions rose a bit during the all-male priesthood meeting, where he felt as if some of the men were misrepresenting the severity of the crisis by suggesting they knew more about life in Ukraine than him.

“People are dying and being killed. Innocent people and citizens,” Osipenko emphasized, “so when people start being arrogant and making silly faces, it’s very disrespectful.”

Oi.

Quote

Nonetheless, Osipenko said, he will continue to defend his country and provide unconditional love to his brothers and sisters.

“The people and the relationships with them,” he said, referring to a sermon from the late church President Thomas S. Monson, “are more valuable to me than the problem we’re trying to solve.”

“I love them,” Osipenko said. “That’s the first thing.”

For his part, Pachev said there should be no political disagreement about what’s happening to Ukraine, stating that a sovereign country is defending its freedom and “exposing Putin’s true colors.”

Indeed, Pachev believes Russians should thank Ukraine.

“Since the attacks,” he said, “Ukraine has done more to bring freedom to Russia than the entire West has done in 20 years.”

I support the Ukrainian people.  Meanwhile, it looks like Putin's regime lied to its own military commanders:

Quote

Captured Russian officer apologizes to Ukraine for ‘genocide,’ begs for mercy
By Yaron Steinbuch
March 7, 2022 7:53am

A Russian commander captured by Ukraine condemned Moscow’s “genocide” invasion — saying in a remarkable televised statement that the troops were duped into believing Kyiv had been overthrown by Nazis and needed liberating.

National Guard Lt. Col. Astakhov Dmitry Mikhailovich, who was captured along with two other soldiers, said he had been told they were being sent to help Ukraine because it was “dominated by a fascist regime” and that “nationalists and Nazis had seized power.”

“Obviously, this information was unilateral information,” Mikhailovich told reporters in a video that emerged Monday.

The captured Russian officer apologized to Ukraine.

The colonel said his doubts were further confirmed when he found out that his favorite boxers, Ukrainians Oleksandr Usyk and Vasiliy Lomachenko, planned to fight for the resistance.

The captive begged for “mercy” from Ukrainians and said he was ready to “go to jail” for taking part in the brutal offensive.

“I feel shame that we came to this country,” the colonel said. “I don’t know why we were doing it. We knew very little. We brought sorrow to this land.”

Telling reporters that he was speaking freely, the high-ranking officer apologized to the Ukrainian citizens, who have come under direct fire by the invading forces.

“I cannot find the words to say sorry to the Ukrainian people,” Mikhailovich said, adding he would understand if Russia was never forgiven.

The POW also urged Ukraine to let Russian troops live.

“Many of them are just embarrassed. They do not want war,” the downcast man said.

“I just sincerely hope for your mercy toward those people who come to you with their hands up, or those who are wounded. We should not sow death — it’s better to sow life,” he said.

Mikhailovich urged his troops to “be brave” and oppose their commanders.

“You are in a tense situation, going against your own commander. But this is genocide,” he said. “Russia cannot win here anyway. Even if we go until the very end. We can invade the territory but we cannot invade the people.”

Footage of Mikhailovich and other captured Russian soldiers has raised questions about whether Ukraine is violating the Geneva Conventions, which provide POWs with protections.

According to Article 13: “Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.”

Andrew Stroehlein, a human rights activist who serves as European media director of Human Rights Watch, said in a tweet that “humiliating or making POWs a subject of public curiosity or ridicule is strictly prohibited by the laws of war.

“Although it may seem in some videos that POWs are free to speak as they wish, they are held captive by another military force, and it’s almost impossible to judge from one video the conditions they face,” he wrote.

Stroehlein said “this prohibition protects families of soldiers back in their home country who may face retaliation if it is known that their family members have been captured.

“These rules apply equally to #Ukrainian forces that capture Russian soldiers, and #Russian forces that capture Ukrainian soldiers,” he added.

The fog of war.  Terrible stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]