The example of the Holy Theotokos

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello everyone, I hope you are all well. This may seem a strange title, but it was prompted by a thread in General Discussions concerning a Pastor who feels that modesty is a virtue. I'm not a feminist really, it seems that feminism has been the excuse for women to ape the worst and behave as badly as the worst in men. Sorry if that upsets some, it's just my opinion based on  the observation of how women behave in my own country, town and village etc. 

The Holy Theotokos is the Orthodox name for the Most Holy Virgin Mary. For us and I would say Catholics too and possibly High Anglicans, she is the God Bearer and the supreme example of One who put God before herself and was obedient to the point of putting herself last, her fiat, her free agreement to bring into the world the Incarnation of God the Word is an example of selflessness and love of God. O Theotokos, we magnify thee, we sing. 

When we consider Mary full of Grace, whose femininity was crowned by her motherhood, and then we consider how women view themselves today, where their feminity is despised by themselves, at least in the traditional sense that stood for centuries, where modest home makers and child rearers might be criticised for not fulfilling their potential, I feel something has been lost. 

The Pastor in the other thread felt that women should not post pictures of themselves in a state of undress. As a Pastor he has standards to uphold, Christian standards, found in the Bible where women are seen as being admonished to be modest, a good wife and mother, someone to be cherished and cared for by her husband, so was he wrong? Doesn't he have a duty to speak out if he sees behaviour that devalues women, created by God in His image, on whom God looked at the creation and saw was good. And what of men who see behaviour in women as loose and lewd as something they instinctively despise despite the fact that they can easily access sexual contact with no ties. Men who are tempted to abuse and misuse women probably because they instinctively know something delightful has been lost and replaced by something they cannot respect. Think of your  mothers, many will have had mothers who embodied traditional modest, strong womanhood, and lived their lives within their families, being the strength and comfort in the home. 

Sorry I didn't mean to ramble but, like our Lady, there is something much deeper about women... and men... than our modern world seems to want to tolerate any more. I think of the strength of Joseph, how he stood by Her, took her for his wife and accepted her Child as his own, was her guardian and protector. They present such a different picture to us, but worthy examples to follow, as unfashionable as that seems. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[3DOP]

Hi Orthodox Christian. Thank you.

When I read the thread title of the other thread, my first thought was also of our Blessed Mother. I didn't have the heart to say anything. I didn't even read anymore. I figured it would become ugly in favor of immodesty. I hope I am wrong. Thanks again.

Rory

Edited February 12, 2022 by 3DOP

[Orthodox Christian]

6 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Orthodox Christian. Thank you.

When I read the thread title of the other thread, my first thought was also of our Blessed Mother. I didn't have the heart to say anything. I didn't even read anymore. I figured it would become ugly in favor of immodesty. I hope I am wrong. Thanks again.

Rory

I didn't read very much of the other thread either for the same reason, but we have to have the heart my friend.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

...........................

Sorry I didn't mean to ramble but, like our Lady, there is something much deeper about women... and men... than our modern world seems to want to tolerate any more. I think of the strength of Joseph, how he stood by Her, took her for his wife and accepted her Child as his own, was her guardian and protector. They present such a different picture to us, but worthy examples to follow, as unfashionable as that seems. 

Any one who is serious about the devaluing of high ethical and moral norms might want to ask why, and that may require some soul-searching.  What do sociologists say are the primary reasons for perceived changes in values and behavior?  Why has responsibility become unfashionable?  You mention Joseph as a good example of responsible conduct, but a Joseph doesn't exist in a vacuum.  What might we do to make difficult circumstances bearable?  Why would a woman want to bring a child into a world which treats her as worthless and leaves her without the minimal resources to care for her child(ren)?  Divorce is so common now that a woman must understand that she will have to bear all the financial burdens, probably without adequate day-care.  Tax law gives her no advantage.  It certainly doesn't reward a faithful couple.

We live in a world in which people are overburdened with debt, high costs of rent, inflation, addiction, and homelessness.  Fertility rates are plunging, people are living alone.  The stats are horrible, and a bleak future seems in store.  There is a systemic failure much greater and more foreboding than mere immodesty.  If we cannot successfully address our bigger problems, there will be no society to save or repair.

[Orthodox Christian]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Any one who is serious about the devaluing of high ethical and moral norms might want to ask why, and that may require some soul-searching.  What do sociologists say are the primary reasons for perceived changes in values and behavior?  Why has responsibility become unfashionable?  You mention Joseph as a good example of responsible conduct, but a Joseph doesn't exist in a vacuum.  What might we do to make difficult circumstances bearable?  Why would a woman want to bring a child into a world which treats her as worthless and leaves her without the minimal resources to care for her child(ren)?  Divorce is so common now that a woman must understand that she will have to bear all the financial burdens, probably without adequate day-care.  Tax law gives her no advantage.  It certainly doesn't reward a faithful couple.

We live in a world in which people are overburdened with debt, high costs of rent, inflation, addiction, and homelessness.  Fertility rates are plunging, people are living alone.  The stats are horrible, and a bleak future seems in store.  There is a systemic failure much greater and more foreboding than mere immodesty.  If we cannot successfully address our bigger problems, there will be no society to save or repair.

Thank you Robert, very thought provoking may I will it over for a while?

[Orthodox Christian]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:06 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Any one who is serious about the devaluing of high ethical and moral norms might want to ask why, and that may require some soul-searching.  What do sociologists say are the primary reasons for perceived changes in values and behavior?  Why has responsibility become unfashionable?  You mention Joseph as a good example of responsible conduct, but a Joseph doesn't exist in a vacuum.  What might we do to make difficult circumstances bearable?  Why would a woman want to bring a child into a world which treats her as worthless and leaves her without the minimal resources to care for her child(ren)?  Divorce is so common now that a woman must understand that she will have to bear all the financial burdens, probably without adequate day-care.  Tax law gives her no advantage.  It certainly doesn't reward a faithful couple.

We live in a world in which people are overburdened with debt, high costs of rent, inflation, addiction, and homelessness.  Fertility rates are plunging, people are living alone.  The stats are horrible, and a bleak future seems in store.  There is a systemic failure much greater and more foreboding than mere immodesty.  If we cannot successfully address our bigger problems, there will be no society to save or repair.

Well, I don't really know how to answer, except perhaps from a Christian perspective, which would simply be that the situation that you describe is one of a world that chooses to ignore God and the salvation that He offers through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Sounds trite doesn't it, however it is no less true for all that. 

What do sociologists say about changes in behaviour.? Well they are people of this time and of the secular world, they don't look at society and the drivers of behavioural change through the prism of Christianity, but from the dispassionate observational position that they have drawn from the world that they know compared probably to a time in history when people behaved differently. I doubt they would quote scripture or say that the world needs to be converted to Christ as the solution to the many problems you cited, although there may be exceptions. 

To return to the Pastor in question in the other thread, he was looking at one behavioural change, in women, although a fair few men also seem narcisstically obsessed with their appearance both clothed and less-clothed and are equally happy to post pictures of themselves in either state. However, the Pastor was referring to women who post pictures of themselves, and I suppose he felt this immodesty was wrong from his perspective, as a Christian minister. He obviously felt he had to speak out. But I always feel that Scripture can address and be very clear on behavioural issues, and as Christians, Scripture should be our guide. 

I am thinking of 2 Corinthians 6: 12-20. St Paul he is addressing sexual behaviour and I think its reasonable to say that posting near nude pictures online whether by males or females is deliberately sexualising themselves. The verse that stand out for me are:

"Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body". 

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ" 

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him". 

"... but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and your spirit, which are God's. "

From a Christian perspective that is the standard, and the way that the secular world behaves doesn't come close. In one sense the secular world has nothing to do with Christians who are meant to be in the world but not of it. Ours is the narrow way. In secular eyes it is narrow minded, but Our Lord Jesus is our Way, our narrow Way, and thanks be to God that His grace helps us to live it. 

So mere immodesty, is much more than that, it is a symptom of a Godless society along with the other situations people face in society that you referred to. Christ came to heal, but we have to take possession of what he offers and walk that narrow way, we have to be prepared to put on the new man, strive for purity among many other virtues, step aside from our centre and let Him reign in us. That is our cross, because it is hard, every day it is hard to be in this world because of the many influences and temptations that the father of this world, the father of lies, Satan, sets before us. However, our Father placed us here and now, and it is through His grace that we overcome.

We Christians don't exist in a vacuum do we? But existing in this world with an adversary such as we have and surrounded by the devastation he has wraught in the world, we have to persevere in faith and shelter beneath the wings of our Refuge, and our God. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Well, I don't really know how to answer, except perhaps from a Christian perspective, which would simply be that the situation that you describe is one of a world that chooses to ignore God and the salvation that He offers through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Sounds trite doesn't it, however it is no less true for all that. 

What do sociologists say about changes in behaviour.? Well they are people of this time and of the secular world, they don't look at society and the drivers of behavioural change through the prism of Christianity, but from the dispassionate observational position that they have drawn from the world that they know compared probably to a time in history when people behaved differently. I doubt they would quote scripture or say that the world needs to be converted to Christ as the solution to the many problems you cited, although there may be exceptions. 

To return to the Pastor in question in the other thread, he was looking at one behavioural change, in women, although a fair few men also seem narcisstically obsessed with their appearance both clothed and less-clothed and are equally happy to post pictures of themselves in either state. However, the Pastor was referring to women who post pictures of themselves, and I suppose he felt this immodesty was wrong from his perspective, as a Christian minister. He obviously felt he had to speak out. But I always feel that Scripture can address and be very clear on behavioural issues, and as Christians, Scripture should be our guide. 

I am thinking of 2 Corinthians 6: 12-20. St Paul he is addressing sexual behaviour and I think its reasonable to say that posting near nude pictures online whether by males or females is deliberately sexualising themselves. The verse that stand out for me are:

"Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body". 

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ" 

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him". 

"... but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and your spirit, which are God's. "

From a Christian perspective that is the standard, and the way that the secular world behaves doesn't come close. In one sense the secular world has nothing to do with Christians who are meant to be in the world but not of it. Ours is the narrow way. In secular eyes it is narrow minded, but Our Lord Jesus is our Way, our narrow Way, and thanks be to God that His grace helps us to live it. 

So mere immodesty, is much more than that, it is a symptom of a Godless society along with the other situations people face in society that you referred to. Christ came to heal, but we have to take possession of what he offers and walk that narrow way, we have to be prepared to put on the new man, strive for purity among many other virtues, step aside from our centre and let Him reign in us. That is our cross, because it is hard, every day it is hard to be in this world because of the many influences and temptations that the father of this world, the father of lies, Satan, sets before us. However, our Father placed us here and now, and it is through His grace that we overcome.

We Christians don't exist in a vacuum do we? But existing in this world with an adversary such as we have and surrounded by the devastation he has wraught in the world, we have to persevere in faith and shelter beneath the wings of our Refuge, and our God. 

You entirely miss my point:  Citing proof texts will not save society, and ignoring democratic obligations will not advance Christian interests.  Joseph & Mary and baby Jesus lived in a Roman empire without democratic process.  Even within the Jewish religious structure, they had no power.  The priestly Sadducees and rabbinic Pharisees called the shots.  Both systems saw to it that the adult Jesus was quickly crucified.

Today, with strong protection for religious freedom and religious expression, Christians ought to be overjoyed that they can preach their POV to their hearts' content.  Blaming Satan is a cop out.  Facing the real problems of society might help, and dealing effectively with those problems might even be key.  This is the pragmatic approach which true followers of Jesus can take.  Bowing down and woshipping the Golden Calf will not help.

[poptart]

34 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You entirely miss my point:  Citing proof texts will not save society, and ignoring democratic obligations will not advance Christian interests.  Joseph & Mary and baby Jesus lived in a Roman empire without democratic process.  Even within the Jewish religious structure, they had no power.  The priestly Sadducees and rabbinic Pharisees called the shots.  Both systems saw to it that the adult Jesus was quickly crucified.

Today, with strong protection for religious freedom and religious expression, Christians ought to be overjoyed that they can preach their POV to their hearts' content.  Blaming Satan is a cop out.  Facing the real problems of society might help, and dealing effectively with those problems might even be key.  This is the pragmatic approach which true followers of Jesus can take.  Bowing down and woshipping the Golden Calf will not help.

I appreciate your posts, for the most part they're spot on.  What i'm going to say here I think you already know, those of us who have been screwed over will do absolutely nothing as society goes down in flames, this is our revenge for the lives we've had.  People forget, we outnumber and outvote the privileged, as times get worse and there's more of us, well, we'll see.....

Consequences are a thing, now it's the USA's turn.

Edited February 13, 2022 by poptart

[The Nehor]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:07 PM, Orthodox Christian said:

Doesn't he have a duty to speak out if he sees behaviour that devalues women, created by God in His image, on whom God looked at the creation and saw was good. And what of men who see behaviour in women as loose and lewd as something they instinctively despise despite the fact that they can easily access sexual contact with no ties. Men who are tempted to abuse and misuse women probably because they instinctively know something delightful has been lost and replaced by something they cannot respect.

If we let women have the right to choose their own path they might choose wrongly and give me a madonna-whore complex or something! Why will no one think of the poor victimized men if women can do what they want?

[Orthodox Christian]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:27 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You entirely miss my point:  Citing proof texts will not save society, and ignoring democratic obligations will not advance Christian interests.  Joseph & Mary and baby Jesus lived in a Roman empire without democratic process.  Even within the Jewish religious structure, they had no power.  The priestly Sadducees and rabbinic Pharisees called the shots.  Both systems saw to it that the adult Jesus was quickly crucified.

Today, with strong protection for religious freedom and religious expression, Christians ought to be overjoyed that they can preach their POV to their hearts' content.  Blaming Satan is a cop out.  Facing the real problems of society might help, and dealing effectively with those problems might even be key.  This is the pragmatic approach which true followers of Jesus can take.  Bowing down and woshipping the Golden Calf will not help.

 Firstly may I say that my answer was from a Christian perspective. And I was not using proof texts, as I wasn't trying to prove some obscure point by scripture, I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply pointing to what scripture teaches. As for saving society, from the Christian pov that is precisely what Christ offers. He did not come to be a social worker, but to bring the gospel of repentance, healing and salvation to mankind. Also from that same pov blaming Satan is definitely not a cop out, but rather an acknowledgement that he is the author of the ills in this world. That men respond to his influence by not loving their neighbour, nor even more demanding, their enemies and do great harm to each other in good times and bad is evidence of his influence for evil and man's collusion with it. Facing the real problems in society on a personal level is to give whether it is time or tax dollars which many Americans resent from what I have read. Overcoming selfishness for love of neighbour is where helping to work against these problems is the beginning, and that starts with us individually. Giving and doing what we can where we are, and not resenting tax payers money going to programmes that help people a whole lot less fortunate than we are, that's what true followers of Jesus do. It may only be on a small level, but every small thing matters.

As for your comment about worshiping the golden calf, well I don't know what your train of thought was there. I would like to think that you were not being deliberately offensive, however, I will leave that with you. 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

 Firstly may I say that my answer was from a Christian perspective. And I was not using proof texts, as I wasn't trying to prove some obscure point by scripture, I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was simply pointing to what scripture teaches. As for saving society, from the Christian pov that is precisely what Christ offers. He did not come to be a social worker, but to bring the gospel of repentance, healing and salvation to mankind.

I tried to point out that First Century Christianity was part of a harsh Roman Empire in which ordinary people had no say, and in which life was nasty, brutish, and short.  Christianity was harshly persecuted.  The New Testament was authored in that context.  That situation is nothing like what we have today in America, which means that New Testament Scripture might not always apply.

Both Jesus and Paul were Pharisaic rabbis of Bet Hillel and both taught the moral and ethical standards found later in the Talmud.  Both were thoroughly Jewish.  Christianity was Jewish.  The notion that they could only teach one thing is false.  They could walk and chew gum at the same time.  Indeed, as one Jewish scholar observed, Jesus taught as though he had picked up where the ancient Hebrew prophets had left off.  He took time to heal people and to show deep compassion.  His remarkable teaching covered everything of importance in Judaism, and then he capped it all by his willing self-sacrifice on the Cross, providing an astonishing and singular Atonement as the formal Passover Lamb of God.  I think that you sell Jesus short.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Also from that same pov blaming Satan is definitely not a cop out, but rather an acknowledgement that he is the author of the ills in this world. That men respond to his influence by not loving their neighbour, nor even more demanding, their enemies and do great harm to each other in good times and bad is evidence of his influence for evil and man's collusion with it.

LDS theology posits that all humans have full capacity to commit evil or good.  We are coeternal with God, and so cannot blame every ill on Satan.  That is what free agency means.  For normative Christianity, blaming Satan is indeed a convenient cop out, and takes the onus off the individual.  For Latter-day Saints that is not an option.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Facing the real problems in society on a personal level is to give whether it is time or tax dollars which many Americans resent from what I have read. Overcoming selfishness for love of neighbour is where helping to work against these problems is the beginning, and that starts with us individually. Giving and doing what we can where we are, and not resenting tax payers money going to programmes that help people a whole lot less fortunate than we are, that's what true followers of Jesus do. It may only be on a small level, but every small thing matters.

Being of help to those less fortunate or confronted by disaster is something which people of all religions often do, and it is best done as a communal effort, even though we may lend a hand to someone along the way on a hit and miss basis.  Most people I know do not resent taxes used for legitimate purposes -- schools, fire & police, national security, etc.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

As for your comment about worshiping the golden calf, well I don't know what your train of thought was there. I would like to think that you were not being deliberately offensive, however, I will leave that with you. 

We live in a society which loves worshiping the golden calf of the moment, and that seems to be more fun than thinking about the profound teachings of Jesus and his disciples.  That was my likely train of thought.  Most of what I say in a conversation is generic in nature and not an attack on someone.

[Orthodox Christian]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I tried to point out that First Century Christianity was part of a harsh Roman Empire in which ordinary people had no say, and in which life was nasty, brutish, and short.  Christianity was harshly persecuted.  The New Testament was authored in that context.  That situation is nothing like what we have today in America, which means that New Testament Scripture might not always apply.

Both Jesus and Paul were Pharisaic rabbis of Bet Hillel and both taught the moral and ethical standards found later in the Talmud.  Both were thoroughly Jewish.  Christianity was Jewish.  The notion that they could only teach one thing is false.  They could walk and chew gum at the same time.  Indeed, as one Jewish scholar observed, Jesus taught as though he had picked up where the ancient Hebrew prophets had left off.  He took time to heal people and to show deep compassion.  His remarkable teaching covered everything of importance in Judaism, and then he capped it all by his willing self-sacrifice on the Cross, providing an astonishing and singular Atonement as the formal Passover Lamb of God.  I think that you sell Jesus short.

LDS theology posits that all humans have full capacity to commit evil or good.  We are coeternal with God, and so cannot blame every ill on Satan.  That is what free agency means.  For normative Christianity, blaming Satan is indeed a convenient cop out, and takes the onus off the individual.  For Latter-day Saints that is not an option.

Being of help to those less fortunate or confronted by disaster is something which people of all religions often do, and it is best done as a communal effort, even though we may lend a hand to someone along the way on a hit and miss basis.  Most people I know do not resent taxes used for legitimate purposes -- schools, fire & police, national security, etc.

We live in a society which loves worshiping the golden calf of the moment, and that seems to be more fun than thinking about the profound teachings of Jesus and his disciples.  That was my likely train of thought.  Most of what I say in a conversation is generic in nature and not an attack on someone.

Not only LDS acknowledge our free will and agency to commit good and evil. It has been known since the beginning of Christianity, long before Joseph Smith walked this earth, that we have the choice, however our choices can be influenced and very often are by Satan whose malice towards man knows no bounds. I don't know what a normative Christian is, but the onus of responsibility is  neatly not dropped in Satan's lap, God holds us  accountable because we know His requirement of us. And to think that only Latterday Saints do not have that option to shift responsibility whilst the rest of Christianity does is nothing short of arrogant. If the onus of responsibility could be shifted then we couldn't be condemned for our choices. But God offers the way of repentance and mercy, which is His goodness towards us,  because as the Psalmist says that if there was no mercy then who could stand?

As for helping others, or love in action, the Christian Church has been out there at the front since it was established, and is still doing it, along with others of any or no faith, collectively or individually. The commandment to love you neighbour has been shown to be taken very seriously in the Church since the beginning.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Not only LDS acknowledge our free will and agency to commit good and evil. It has been known since the beginning of Christianity, long before Joseph Smith walked this earth, that we have the choice, however our choices can be influenced and very often are by Satan whose malice towards man knows no bounds. I don't know what a normative Christian is, but the onus of responsibility is  neatly not dropped in Satan's lap, God holds us  accountable because we know His requirement of us. And to think that only Latterday Saints do not have that option to shift responsibility whilst the rest of Christianity does is nothing short of arrogant. If the onus of responsibility could be shifted then we couldn't be condemned for our choices. .................

Arrogance doesn't play into theology.  Normative Christians (all mainstream Christians, including Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) have the same basic Greek philosophical assumptions about God and reality, none of which are based on the Bible.  LDS theology does not, frankly rejecting those non-biblical assumptions.  Evangelical Christian pastors such as the late Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, California, readily admit the incompatibility of God’s sovereignty on the one hand with human responsibility on the other.  That is the primary reason for the notion of predestination.  This normative theology has it that, since God created everything in the universe, including humans and Satan, and all laws, He is responsible even for evil.  Moreover, there can logically be no free will.  Thus far, no theologian has managed to explain away the problem of evil or that lack of free will.

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

As for helping others, or love in action, the Christian Church has been out there at the front since it was established, and is still doing it, along with others of any or no faith, collectively or individually. The commandment to love you neighbour has been shown to be taken very seriously in the Church since the beginning.

That goes without saying as a good statement of principles.  The problem arises when we see so-called Christians massacring each other in huge numbers.  Also, it is very hard to understand the venomous words of Martin Luther directed at the Jews.  These are not misdeeds which can be blamed on Satan.

[Orthodox Christian]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Arrogance doesn't play into theology.  Normative Christians (all mainstream Christians, including Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) have the same basic Greek philosophical assumptions about God and reality, none of which are based on the Bible.  LDS theology does not, frankly rejecting those non-biblical assumptions.  Evangelical Christian pastors such as the late Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, California, readily admit the incompatibility of God’s sovereignty on the one hand with human responsibility on the other.  That is the primary reason for the notion of predestination.  This normative theology has it that, since God created everything in the universe, including humans and Satan, and all laws, He is responsible even for evil.  Moreover, there can logically be no free will.  Thus far, no theologian has managed to explain away the problem of evil or that lack of free will.

That goes without saying as a good statement of principles.  The problem arises when we see so-called Christians massacring each other in huge numbers.  Also, it is very hard to understand the venomous words of Martin Luther directed at the Jews.  These are not misdeeds which can be blamed on Satan.

God did not create evil. There is no such thing as evil until it is personified. God created Lucifer who was cast out due to his pride, subsequently, he manifested his hatred for God and man by bringing as much evil into the world as possible in order to destroy what God created. The fact that war even exists, and is perpetrated by people of all creeds and none, and to our shame by Christians upon Christians, as we are witnessing now, is testimony to the evil that the person of Satan continues to unleash amongst mankind. This is the hidden warfare that Christians have to struggle against.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

God did not create evil. There is no such thing as evil until it is personified. God created Lucifer who was cast out due to his pride, subsequently, he manifested his hatred for God and man by bringing as much evil into the world as possible in order to destroy what God created. The fact that war even exists, and is perpetrated by people of all creeds and none, and to our shame by Christians upon Christians, as we are witnessing now, is testimony to the evil that the person of Satan continues to unleash amongst mankind. This is the hidden warfare that Christians have to struggle against.

Mainstream theologians have been wrestling with the problem of evil now for centuries, and have reached no satisfactory resolution -- even from their point of view.  As I said, the normative Judeo-Christian God created everything from nothing.  In LDS theology, God created from preexisting material, and from preexisting beings coeternal with Him.  In so saying, the LDS view comports with the biblical text.  The normative Judeo-Christian view does not.

The logical difficulty which confronts the Greek philosophical basis of that normative Judeo-Christian view is that God cannot escape full responsibility for anything He has made, meaning everything.  Any being He creates is fully His, including any evil produced.  An omnibeneficient God cannot create evil, yet the normative Judeo-Christian God does create evil.  Which means that He cannot be God.  These sorts of logical paradoxes accompany all aspects of the normative Judeo-Christian God.  These are not my observations, but rather the widely published conclusions of serious non-Mormon theologians and philosophers.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

[Orthodox Christian]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mainstream theologians have been wrestling with the problem of evil now for centuries, and have reached no satisfactory resolution -- even from their point of view.  As I said, the normative Judeo-Christian God created everything from nothing.  In LDS theology, God created from preexisting material, and from preexisting beings coeternal with Him.  In so saying, the LDS view comports with the biblical text.  The normative Judeo-Christian view does not.

The logical difficulty which confronts the Greek philosophical basis of that normative Judeo-Christian view is that God cannot escape full responsibility for anything He has made, meaning everything.  Any being He creates is fully His, including any evil produced.  An omnibeneficient God cannot create evil, yet the normative Judeo-Christian God does create evil.  Which means that He cannot be God.  These sorts of logical paradoxes accompany all aspects of the normative Judeo-Christian God.  These are not my observations, but rather the widely published conclusions of serious non-Mormon theologians and philosophers.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

How could God create from beings that were co eternal with Him? Genuine question, seems a bit of a conundrum. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

How could God create from beings that were co eternal with Him? Genuine question, seems a bit of a conundrum. 

In Genesis 1, we have plural Gods doing the organizing, and the late Jewish translator for Anchor Bible made it clear that the Creation was from pre-existing materials.  For example, at Gen 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"  God there is the plural Elohim, and the verb and pronoun are plural.  Scholars have generally admitted that this must be God and his angelic hosts doing the creating or organizing.  He is clearly not alone.  Moreover, He explicitly creates humans in his own image.

The LDS canon of Scripture includes the Book of Abraham, which at 3:18 has Hebrew עולם Gnolaum “eternal” (intelligences), discussed in 3:21-22:

Quote

I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.   Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;”  (3:21-22)

The reference is not to IQ, but to the spark of divinity inherent in all humans:  D&C 93:29 has intelligence as an uncreate “light of truth.”  Indeed, “the glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36), and that is Joseph Smith in 1833.  Joseph Fielding Smith quoted Joseph Smith:

Quote

“The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. …

“The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. … There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [that is, co-eternal] with our Father in heaven. …

“Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret Book, 1938), 353–354.

President Harold B. Lee said:

Quote

A spirit, Abraham says, is an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was.  The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 28.

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit."  The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, 74.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In Genesis 1, we have plural Gods doing the organizing, and the late Jewish translator for Anchor Bible made it clear that the Creation was from pre-existing materials.  For example, at Gen 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"  God there is the plural Elohim, and the verb and pronoun are plural.  Scholars have generally admitted that this must be God and his angelic hosts doing the creating or organizing.  He is clearly not alone.  Moreover, He explicitly creates humans in his own image.

The LDS canon of Scripture includes the Book of Abraham, which at 3:18 has Hebrew עולם Gnolaum “eternal” (intelligences), discussed in 3:21-22:

The reference is not to IQ, but to the spark of divinity inherent in all humans:  D&C 93:29 has intelligence as an uncreate “light of truth.”  Indeed, “the glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36), and that is Joseph Smith in 1833.  Joseph Fielding Smith quoted Joseph Smith:

President Harold B. Lee said:

I see...

[poptart]

22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In Genesis 1, we have plural Gods doing the organizing, and the late Jewish translator for Anchor Bible made it clear that the Creation was from pre-existing materials.  For example, at Gen 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"  God there is the plural Elohim, and the verb and pronoun are plural.  Scholars have generally admitted that this must be God and his angelic hosts doing the creating or organizing.  He is clearly not alone.  Moreover, He explicitly creates humans in his own image.

The LDS canon of Scripture includes the Book of Abraham, which at 3:18 has Hebrew עולם Gnolaum “eternal” (intelligences), discussed in 3:21-22:

The reference is not to IQ, but to the spark of divinity inherent in all humans:  D&C 93:29 has intelligence as an uncreate “light of truth.”  Indeed, “the glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36), and that is Joseph Smith in 1833.  Joseph Fielding Smith quoted Joseph Smith:

President Harold B. Lee said:

I'll just add this.

The Genesis Problem - Word on Fire

I decided to do lent this year, part of it is just shutting off the outside and doing more constructive things.  I'm giving my Trinitarian heritage a closer look, so far so good.  

[Robert F. Smith]

29 minutes ago, poptart said:

I'll just add this.

The Genesis Problem - Word on Fire

..............

Yes, Bishop Robert Barron is wonderful.  I sometimes suggest that he be invited to speak at LDS General Conference.

Some of the most convincing analysis of Gen 1 has been by a late Jesuit professor who taught at Catholic Univ of America.  Some of my best colleagues have been Roman Catholic priests.  Have learned so much from them.

[poptart]

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, Bishop Robert Barron is wonderful.  I sometimes suggest that he be invited to speak at LDS General Conference.

Some of the most convincing analysis of Gen 1 has been by a late Jesuit professor who taught at Catholic Univ of America.  Some of my best colleagues have been Roman Catholic priests.  Have learned so much from them.

The Ukraine mess has made me really appreciate the Church a lot more, I can't get over how much they've helped the refugees, even the Orthodox are condemning people over it.  Reading and replying to your posts is always a pleasure, not only are they usually pleasant, I almost always learn something new.  You build bridges, the world needs more of that right now.

Edited March 7, 2022 by poptart

[Orthodox Christian]

15 hours ago, poptart said:

The Ukraine mess has made me really appreciate the Church a lot more, I can't get over how much they've helped the refugees, even the Orthodox are condemning people over it.  Reading and replying to your posts is always a pleasure, not only are they usually pleasant, I almost always learn something new.  You build bridges, the world needs more of that right now.

It's very sad, Russia is also Orthodox, but Putin has cynically used the Church to ingratiate himself with the Russian people. Apparently thousands of Churches have been built in Russia in recent years. And of course Putin has been very visible at Church services and involved in other Church celebrations. So he is seen a little bit like a saviour of the Russian Orthodox Church, quite a smart move from this former KGB officer.

But I think the way the world has supported and helped Ukraine is amazing.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[poptart]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:53 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

It's very sad, Russia is also Orthodox, but Putin has cynically used the Church to ingratiate himself with the Russian people. Apparently thousands of Churches have been built in Russia in recent years. And of course Putin has been very visible at Church services and involved in other Church celebrations. So he is seen a little bit like a saviour of the Russian Orthodox Church, quite a smart move from this former KGB officer.

But I think the way the world has supported and helped Ukraine is amazing.

Nice to know I'm not the only one who's been watching Putin make friends with the Russian Patriarch.  Will say, some of the churches they've built look amazing.  All of this is making me think about what some Ukrainian nurses i've met have said, it's all for show.  Russia is so poor and corrupt, Putin answers to mob bosses/oligarchs, at least that's what they said.  You don't become a high level KGB officer by singing too loud in church.....

You and me both, that right there really made me think twice about the Christian religion, this is the stuff I used to hear stories about as a kid.  That's the church militant, that is Christs church.

[Orthodox Christian]

9 hours ago, poptart said:

Nice to know I'm not the only one who's been watching Putin make friends with the Russian Patriarch.  Will say, some of the churches they've built look amazing.  All of this is making me think about what some Ukrainian nurses i've met have said, it's all for show.  Russia is so poor and corrupt, Putin answers to mob bosses/oligarchs, at least that's what they said.  You don't become a high level KGB officer by singing too loud in church.....

You and me both, that right there really made me think twice about the Christian religion, this is the stuff I used to hear stories about as a kid.  That's the church militant, that is Christs church.

Exactly, but sadly, the Russian people are believing his propaganda, and seem to actually believe that Ukrainians are bombing themselves. And what is doubly sad is that Russia has been a stalwart of Orthodoxy in the past, before Communism. And it was people who went underground during that era, little grannies, who took their grandchildren into the woods to pray the Typica and teach them the scriptures and prayers. Un known saints. The Lord said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, it never has. And although Putin has no doubt decided to give the people their opiate in order to gain from it, the good that has come out of that is that there are now churches and priests who celebrate the Divine Liturgy. I am sure the Patriarch is wise enough to see through this old Soviet and has played him at his own game. However, now he is between a rock and a hard place. I suppose he can remember that dark time, however, I am sure his conscience must be pricking him in not condemning this war.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[poptart]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:51 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Exactly, but sadly, the Russian people are believing his propaganda, and seem to actually believe that Ukrainians are bombing themselves. And what is doubly sad is that Russia has been a stalwart of Orthodoxy in the past, before Communism. And it was people who went underground during that era, little grannies, who took their grandchildren into the woods to pray the Typica and teach them the scriptures and prayers. Un known saints. The Lord said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, it never has. And although Putin has no doubt decided to give the people their opiate in order to gain from it, the good that has come out of that is that there are now churches and priests who celebrate the Divine Liturgy. I am sure the Patriarch is wise enough to see through this old Soviet and has played him at his own game. However, now he is between a rock and a hard place. I suppose he can remember that dark time, however, I am sure his conscience must be pricking him in not condemning this war.

You might find this interesting.

Pope Francis to Consecrate Ukraine and Russia to Immaculate Heart of Mary| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

Hoping this ends soon and the church comes out stronger.  That and we all start getting along, even if it's just being respectful towards each other.  Know I've been guilty of running my mouth off and pointing the finger, really trying to back off from that.  I was wrong.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by poptart