Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

say may because I don't have any idea if they tried to contact him in other ways. 

Good point, I assumed they had not.

For those too lazy to read the article (it is short) like .I was:

Quote

Today, members of the Black Student Union dressed up in all black, to represent solidarity, and we went down to Brad Wilcox’s class in the Jesse Knight building,” said Byrd on Instagram. “When we got there, we were met with security outside of his classroom door. We just wanted to go inside and sit down and kind of start a dialogue.”

In the post, Byrd implied that some people were portraying the visit to Wilcox’s class as an aggressive move.

“They have said we were there to force our way in,” said Byrd. “They have this perception that we were there in violence or in high energy, high emotions what have you. But we were waiting calmly outside the door. We did not cause any disturbance and anyone who was there can vouch for that.”

In the video, Byrd says they were able to meet with Wilcox briefly after his class ended. Byrd says Wilcox didn’t want to have an extended conversation then and there, but said they could talk in the future.

I encourage people to watch the video.  If an accurate portrayal, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t be, it sounds very tame.  It sounds like Brother Wilcox kept any interchange very limited at the end of class and they didn’t force the issue and simply sent him an email later requesting a meeting, which was agreed to.

Interesting there was security for the class.  Wonder if BYU admin knew they were coming or if security has been a thing for Brother Wilcox or the class since the blowup.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Good point, I assumed they had not.

My guess is they probably didn't.   I think of my college years and if I wanted to talk with a professor that I wasn't taking a class from I would likely show up just before class was over, wait till it was done and then ask if they could talk. So I totally see the black students doing that too, but there are some who would plan better and try to contact through his office first.  No mention of that from the president so I would guess that didn't happen - I just won't assume that without hearing more. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

My guess is they probably didn't.   I think of my college years and if I wanted to talk with a professor that I wasn't taking a class from I would likely show up just before class was over, wait till it was done and then ask if they could talk. So I totally see the black students doing that too, but there are some who would plan better and try to contact through his office first.  No mention of that from the president so I would guess that didn't happen - I just won't assume that without hearing more. 

I think it likely would have been mentioned as he did appear to be trying to present the full picture.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Good point, I assumed they had not.

For those too lazy to read the article (it is short) like .I was:

I encourage people to watch the video.  If an accurate portrayal, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t be, it sounds very tame.  It sounds like Brother Wilcox kept any interchange very limited at the end of class and they didn’t force the issue and simply sent him an email later requesting a meeting, which was agreed to.

Interesting there was security for the class.  Wonder if BYU admin knew they were coming or if security has been a thing for Brother Wilcox or the class since the blowup.

I do wonder why they thought they would get to have a dialogue with him during his class?

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I do wonder why they thought they would get to have a dialogue with him during his class?

Since they waited an hour or two he said, I would really like to know when they got there.  Most religion classes don’t go two hours, so my guess is the hour, but guessing that would still put them close to the beginning of class.  Maybe they thought he would be willing to turn the class over to having the dialogue, discussion…I can see a few of my professors interested in doing so to explore stuff they were teaching, but not an assumption I would make for a religion class.

added:  just checked catalog, Rel 250 they meet once a week for almost 2 hours.  It lists the end of class time, so unless they got the info somewhere else, it does look like they were hoping to take up classtime. He also teaches two sections of one hour class back to back with a 10 minute break, so they might have come thinking they could talk to him at break, but if so I would assume it would be mentioned.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[juliann]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Good point, I assumed they had not.

For those too lazy to read the article (it is short) like .I was:

I encourage people to watch the video.  If an accurate portrayal, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t be, it sounds very tame.  It sounds like Brother Wilcox kept any interchange very limited at the end of class and they didn’t force the issue and simply sent him an email later requesting a meeting, which was agreed to.

Interesting there was security for the class.  Wonder if BYU admin knew they were coming or if security has been a thing for Brother Wilcox or the class since the blowup.

I really hope that the visibility of this episode forces those who are still churning out false information to think twice. It isn't like people can claim they didn't know any better, there are too many people willing to let them know. I also think Bro. Wilcox is handling this as well as could be expected and that some good will come of it. 

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I do wonder why they thought they would get to have a dialogue with him during his class?

They didn't.   Their plan was for after class. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

They didn't.   Their plan was for after class. 

The quote by Byrd makes it seem kind of confusing.

Today, members of the Black Student Union dressed up in all black, to representsolidarity, and we went down to Brad Wilcox’s class in the Jesse Knight building,” said Byrd on Instagram. “When we got there, we were met with security outside of his classroom door. We just wanted to go inside and sit down and kind of start a dialogue.”

It sounds like they wanted to go in during class and do the discussion right when they showed up and were stopped from being able to do that by security.  It doesn’t sound like they went to the classroom to wait until class was over.

But it could just be being described in a way that doesn’t explain their actual plan.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since they waited an hour or two he said, I would really like to know when they got there.  Most religion classes don’t go two hours, so my guess is the hour, but guessing that would still put them close to the beginning of class.  Maybe they thought he would be willing to turn the class over to having the dialogue, discussion…I can see a few of my professors interested in doing so to explore stuff they were teaching, but not an assumption I would make for a religion class.

added:  just checked catalog, Rel 250 they meet once a week for almost 2 hours.  It lists the end of class time, so unless they got the info somewhere else, it does look like they were hoping to take up classtime. He also teaches two sections of one hour class back to back with a 10 minute break, so they might have come thinking they could talk to him at break, but if so I would assume it would be mentioned.

I wondered if they planned on having a regular meeting beforehand and making good use of time or if they met earlier to plan out what they would say.  It could be a completely practical thing or a way to support each other or a way to intimidate others. At this point we don't have any info to give us a good idea why.   

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The quote by Byrd makes it seem kind of confusing.

Today, members of the Black Student Union dressed up in all black, to representsolidarity, and we went down to Brad Wilcox’s class in the Jesse Knight building,” said Byrd on Instagram. “When we got there, we were met with security outside of his classroom door. We just wanted to go inside and sit down and kind of start a dialogue.”

It sounds like they wanted to go in during class and do the discussion right when they showed up and were stopped from being able to do that by security.  It doesn’t sound like they went to the classroom to wait until class was over.

But it could just be being described in a way that doesn’t explain their actual plan.

Yes.  It seemed a little confusing to me too when I read it.  On the video I think the thing said was they would wait outside.  I'll have to listen again. 

[Peacefully]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Having seen Mom in dementia, the mind is not the same.  If she is truly eternal that part of her had to be somewhere.  
 

Maybe in mortality we are all suffering from dementia to a significant extent.   

Interesting idea:)

My father suffered from schizophrenia and dementia so I never saw who he truly was. I look forward to meeting his true self in the next life. But I guess we could say that about everyone, including ourselves:)

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The quote by Byrd makes it seem kind of confusing.

Today, members of the Black Student Union dressed up in all black, to representsolidarity, and we went down to Brad Wilcox’s class in the Jesse Knight building,” said Byrd on Instagram. “When we got there, we were met with security outside of his classroom door. We just wanted to go inside and sit down and kind of start a dialogue.”

It sounds like they wanted to go in during class and do the discussion right when they showed up and were stopped from being able to do that by security.  It doesn’t sound like they went to the classroom to wait until class was over.

But it could just be being described in a way that doesn’t explain their actual plan.

Ok, the president, Nate, said in the video they the wanted to go inside and start a dialog, but met security "so we waited outside".  So it does sound like they planned to go in.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by Rain

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, that would be my dream come true. I watched for 10 years my mother with dementia/Alzheimer's suffering. I would be so happy, if I knew she was off somewhere else. At the end of her life, the CNA who had dealt with many elderly in their dying moments, said my mom's spirit had already began to leave up to heaven. 

I also like to believe that children that are abused's little spirits are taken away for those moments by an angel and held for a while.

Same here. I believe our spirits are eternal and our Heavenly Father is merciful, so this line of thought is one way I can make sense of the most horrible things that happen to us as humans. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Interesting idea:)

My father suffered from schizophrenia and dementia so I never saw who he truly was. I look forward to meeting his true self in the next life. But I guess we could say that about everyone, including ourselves:)

Dad had surgery where he was put completely under and when he came out of it, his personality had changed some.  More emotional, wanted to talk about spiritual things, called up the bishop to ask if he could share his testimony at church…think he went a bit manic.  When it didn’t change after a few days, they took it seriously and found a benign tumor had engulfed his pituitary gland.  Seems like the surgery stressed his body enough whatever coping mechanisms it had weren’t working anymore.  So for about a week and a half, maybe two he was this verbal, spiritual giant that Mom had always believed was under his more practical, very down to earth exterior (it came out when he gave blessings and was there in his moral compass).  When he woke up from brain surgery, he was completely back to normal…a disappointment for me and my mom, but the rest of the family were much more comfortable with the old version.

I told Mom she had got a glimpse of his celestial side.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Dad had surgery where he was put completely under and when he came out of it, his personality had changed some.  More emotional, wanted to talk about spiritual things, called up the bishop to ask if he could share his testimony at church…think he went a bit manic.  When it didn’t change after a few days, they took it seriously and found a benign tumor had engulfed his pituitary gland.  Seems like the surgery stressed his body enough whatever coping mechanisms it had weren’t working anymore.  So for about a week and a half, maybe two he was this verbal, spiritual giant that Mom had always believed was under his more practical, very down to earth exterior (it came out when he gave blessings and was there in his moral compass).  When he woke up from brain surgery, he was completely back to normal…a disappointment for me and my mom, but the rest of the family were much more comfortable with the old version.

I told Mom she had got a glimpse of his celestial side.

That is an amazing story! I hope that glimpse gave her some comfort:) 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

That is an amazing story! I hope that glimpse gave her some comfort:) 

I am thinking it was a tender mercy because it was a real struggle for Mom at times that Dad didn’t want to discuss the things she was interested in especially when they were living on their own (there were a few rare friends she had occasional contact over the years with, but it was mainly my older sister and me who would spend the time talking).  Unfortunately when Mom got her dementia, it seemed like she could only see the side of Dad that wasn’t interested in talking and missed the fact he was caring for her physically so much (but she didn’t want to see her limitations).  When Dad died she even said after the shock wore off she wasn’t sure she wanted to spend eternity with him and I was so grateful I could remind her of that time…not sure she really remembered it, but I kept mentioning it and it seemed to soothe her some.  That was a brief period, I think she was angry he had left her.  The vast majority of the time she was wishing she could join him and couldn’t understand why she was hanging around still.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

Re; a future meeting between Wilcox and the Black Student Union . . .

I think a BYU administrator should also be present, and I think it should be stipulated that it not be recorded. Unlike hostile disciplinary councils with apostates, where the no recording proviso is likely going to be violated, these students ostensibly "just want a dialogue," and releasing surreptitious audio/video would be a sign of bad faith. Also, an admin present would just be best for all involved, I think. Assuming stated intentions to be true, a real dialogue is most likely where neither party is concerned about video clips and online firestorms. 

Nate Byrd's comment that they are unhappy with the rate of progress at BYU makes me uneasy --- that this is more if a protest salvo than "just wanting a dialogue."

I think Wilcox is speaking in Long Beach tonight, unless that has been cancelled. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by rongo

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am thinking it was a tender mercy because it was a real struggle for Mom at times that Dad didn’t want to discuss the things she was interested in especially when they were living on their own (there were a few rare friends she had occasional contact over the years with, but it was mainly my older sister and me who would spend the time talking).  Unfortunately when Mom got her dementia, it seemed like she could only see the side of Dad that wasn’t interested in talking and missed the fact he was caring for her physically so much (but she didn’t want to see her limitations).  When Dad died she even said after the shock wore off she wasn’t sure she wanted to spend eternity with him and I was so grateful I could remind her of that time…not sure she really remembered it, but I kept mentioning it and it seemed to soothe her some.  That was a brief period, I think she was angry he had left her.  The vast majority of the time she was wishing she could join him and couldn’t understand why she was hanging around still.

Beautiful story! Both of my parents had some tough things handed to them throughout their lives and I wasn’t always understanding of what they went through. My father was sick with schizophrenia as long as I can remember, and medicated most of the time so I never really knew him. My mom was a very needy person and all I wanted to do was get away from her. I look forward to seeing them together in the next life and just sitting with them and having a good chin-wag (as the British would say). 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Re; a future meeting between Wilcox and the Black Student Union . . .

I think a BYU administrator should also be present, and I think it should be stipulated that it not be recorded. Unlike hostile disciplinary councils with apostates, where the no recording proviso is likely going to be violated, these students ostensibly "just want a dialogue," and releasing surreptitious audio/video would be a sign of bad faith. Also, an admin present would just be best for all involved, I think. Assuming stated intentions to be true, a real dialogue is most likely where neither party is concerned about video clips and online firestorms. 

Nate Byrd's comment that they are unhappy with the rate of progress at BYU makes me uneasy --- that this is more if a protest salvo than "just wanting a dialogue."

I think Wilcox is speaking in Long Beach tonight, unless that has been cancelled. 

I agree with the no recording. 

Rather than a school administer I would want someone who is trained to help people communicate better.

[bluebell]

Just now, Rain said:

I agree with the no recording. 

Rather than a school administer I would want someone who is trained to help people communicate better.

Agreed.  And a more neutral party would be more helpful than a BYU administrator, in my opinion.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'll have to listen to it.

Brad is known to have a good relationship with a lot of religious people who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He's more complex that the Alpine talk makes him seem (and more complex than some people want to allow).  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

We all are.  That's one of the big problems with "cancelling" someone on the basis of a sound bite.  (To be clear, that's a general comment: I'm not trying to discount Bro. Wilcox's apparent "pattern" or "history" of apparently troublesome comments or addresses regarding race.)  

[Saint Bonaventure]

Hmmm....

I think that all the markers are there for the students wanting to intimidate Brad Wilcox. Considering that meeting that went viral he shouldn't be shocked, and may not feel physically threatened, but this kind of thing happening to you in your workplace probably would contribute to a concern for your job. How much of this before BYU feels that it needs to cut him loose?

BYU may be concerned of its own liability, as it needs to have a reasonably safe work environment for Brad. That's why the security is there. 

[JustAnAustralian]

I disagree with the no recording part. It's pretty clear they want the dialogue out in the open (otherwise they wouldn't have turned up at his class), so it wouldn't surprise me if they want it recorded. 
I would have the group, Brad, and which ever third party is there (whether byu admin, neutral negotiator, etc) to each have their own recording set up. That way no person can get away with selectively editing it, or making false accusations of the meeting contents.

[rongo]

49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Agreed.  And a more neutral party would be more helpful than a BYU administrator, in my opinion.

Okay, someone from Utah St., then. UofU would be too biased as well. 😄

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

I disagree with the no recording part. It's pretty clear they want the dialogue out in the open (otherwise they wouldn't have turned up at his class), so it wouldn't surprise me if they want it recorded. 
I would have the group, Brad, and which ever third party is there (whether byu admin, neutral negotiator, etc) to each have their own recording set up. That way no person can get away with selectively editing it, or making false accusations of the meeting contents.

Strongly disagree. A public, recorded spectacle is very different from the stated purpose of "just having a dialogue." I think they should make clear how sincere the use of that buzz phrase is. Nate Byrd's invoking of a larger agenda about bringing about change at BYU (and dissatisfaction with BYU's rate of change, or actual change) makes me want to avoid any type of recorded spectacle. 

Do they want "a dialogue" with Wilcox, or not? Is this really about Wilcox's fireside rhetoric, or something larger (ie., is Wilcox a proxy here)?