The Church's Marketing Strategy - Reverting from the Shift?

[poptart]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The Catholic Church backtracked from much of its culture and practices following the Second Vatican Council. We tried to become more palatable to protestants and more protestant in our appearance. This resulted in a much watered down liturgy, which then resulted in watered down beliefs. "Lex orandi, lex credendi" means "the law of prayer is the law of belief." In other words, they way we worship forms our belief. For example, in the pre-Vatican II liturgy, the eucharist was received kneeling on the tongue. This certainly taught the belief that the host was the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. In post-Vatican II liturgy, the eucharist is received into the hand while standing. This will water down the belief in transubstantiation, because the host is not treated as if it were Christ Jesus.

It appears to me (I wasn't there) that the Catholic Church went a little giddy in the 70s and 80s trying to erase Catholic culture. Beautiful churches were sold and new garish ones were built that were decorated not with ornate altars and stained glass windows, but instead with felt banners. Gone was Gregorian chant and in came the guitars and praise bands. Catholic culture suffered because people wanted to appear mainstream protestant instead of Catholic.

There is a beautiful old minor basilica in my town. It is open during the day for tourists. They play Gregorian chant. Then, on Sunday, they play guitars. It is so frustrating. They realize that people associate beautiful Catholic churches with chant, so they play it for tourists, but they won't allow chant during Mass.

Why do people visit this church? Because it is old and clearly Catholic.

I wonder how many people are rushing to see this Catholic church (and can you even tell it is Catholic?):

Now it is the traditional Catholic communities that tend to be flourishing. These are communities where Catholic culture is embraced and advanced, where the law of prayer does match and reinforce the law of belief, where young families are having lots of children. I have noticed, too, a shift in regular Catholic communities, where people are trying to recover some of what was lost -- for example, the liturgy is celebrated more reverently.

I share this as a possible parallel with the LDS culture, if the article in the OP is accurate. It would probably be good for you to return to your roots, as it is imperative that the Catholic Church does so as well.

 

You I consider an authority on this so here goes, do you think Catholics here have any plans at all to respond to the nones, those leaving Christianity, those who grow up secular or something more so from your world. the poorly catechised?  Politics and privilege has run many off plus those on the outside are very much soured by what they see from a lot of those on the other end.  My understanding is the Catholic church tends to focus on bringing back lapsed people more, especially cradle Catholics, they have all the education from childhood, all you have to do is get them in the confessional and hope they stick around, the unchurched/dechurched are a different matter.  As families in the USA (Especially caucasian American ones) continue to fall apart, this is going to become an even bigger problem for those on your end, especially with how polarized the country is already.  I do try to give the otherside a small benefit of doubt but far as I can tell, they're not winning hearts and minds.  THey continue to anger those who are poor, LGBTQ, POC, different belief systems etc. while trying to get support from an ever shrinking support base.  You do have smart people like Bishop Barron and my favorite Fr. Casey who try but it sure seems like for every decent person they have, they have 10 or so more who just drown out the good they're trying to do.  That's not sustainable.  

[Thinking]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:38 AM, smac97 said:

The first discusses whether the Church is in some sort of death spiral.

Probably not. Just like growth curve leveled off, any curve that depicts a decline in membership will most likely level off too, IMO.

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Probably not. Just like growth curve leveled off, any curve that depicts a decline in membership will most likely level off too, IMO.

Yeah.  "Death spiral" was a bit much.  I apologize to Teancum on that score.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SkyRock]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the results are the same what does it matter what it's called?

Then why did they change it? 

And are the results the same?  Does the current system provoke a profound change in sinners so that they truly repent?   

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, SkyRock said:

Is the primary message of the church today about belonging and accepting or about repentance?  If "belonging" and being non judgmental are the primary things, then the message isn't much different.   We don't even excommunicate or disfellowship anyone because we changed the names.

Sure, the methods are different than the megachurches, but the LDS is much more for a mainline Christian church today than 40 years ago, an intentional effort.  Slightly different doctrine, but similar focus. 

 

Disagree.

Main teaching is Covenant Path, forever families, ongoing revelation/ progression 

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

Then why did they change it? 

And are the results the same?  Does the current system provoke a profound change in sinners so that they truly repent?   

I don't know why exactly but probably because of the connotations associated with those terms.  And yes, the results are the same.  The current system is basically the same, with the exact same intentions and hopes for the people involved.

https://kutv.com/news/local/after-changes-to-handbook-terminology-lds-church-members-can-no-longer-be-excommunicated

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, SkyRock said:

Then why did they change it? 

And are the results the same?  Does the current system provoke a profound change in sinners so that they truly repent?   

They actually brought it more in line with the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. The method used was to blot their names in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants talks about  so “name removal” is more correct than the borrowed term excommunication which has a lot of baggage around it being wielded in some cases for political purposes instead of for stamping out false teachings.

While it looks like an attempt to soften the church’s disciplinary system and that may have been part of the motivation it is also just more in accord with scripture.

[SkyRock]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They actually brought it more in line with the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. The method used was to blot their names in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants talks about  so “name removal” is more correct than the borrowed term excommunication which has a lot of baggage around it being wielded in some cases for political purposes instead of for stamping out false teachings.

While it looks like an attempt to soften the church’s disciplinary system and that may have been part of the motivation it is also just more in accord with scripture.

I read through the updated policy.  Amazing what doesn’t require a membership council and what does.   We are a long way from when sexual immorality was just behind murder and denying the Holy Ghost.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

I read through the updated policy.  Amazing what doesn’t require a membership council and what does.   We are a long way from when sexual immorality was just behind murder and denying the Holy Ghost.

Everything started going downhill when we stopped burning heretics at the stake.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Everything started going downhill when we stopped burning heretics at the stake.

Roadshows just weren’t as entertaining.

[SkyRock]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Roadshows just weren’t as entertaining.

Always liked roadshows and its too bad they are things of the past. 

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

Always liked roadshows and its too bad they are things of the past. 

And church softball tournaments.  They were always fun.

[SkyRock]

22 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

And church softball tournaments.  They were always fun.

Indeed.  My stake growing up had: girls, deacons, priests, women, elders, and high priests, 6 leagues all summer long,  renting out a park. 

Now my ward has a Halloween party and a Christmas party and nothing else.  The stake doesn't do much at all, either.

[california boy]

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Church is a world wide church.  Much of the gay issues are stronger in the US and perhaps Europe but other places it just is not as important.  In fact getting too gay friendly might make the church less appealing in these other areas of the world.  There are people who are going to get caught up in the LGBT stuff and make this a big issue.  The Church however is not for everyone and the Church really does not even attempt to maximize the number of converts.  If it was concerned about it, it would make simple changes like reverting the church view of the word of wisdom back to when it was first given.   Then it was was seen as counsel, not a commandment.  Now it is seen as a commandment and needed to be baptized and go to the temple.    For 95% of the population that is not LGBT,  they may support gay people but their lives are not directly affected by gay issues.  The average Joe who his not gay but loves beer may not like the Church view on gays but probably is not going to keep them from being baptized.   For them, having to give up beer is a much bigger issue because it affects them directly. 

Just curious how you believe the church could be more anti-LGBT than it already is in order to appeal to the beer drinkers.

[poptart]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

Just curious how you believe the church could be more anti-LGBT than it already is in order to appeal to the beer drinkers.

There's more LGBTQ than that, a lot of us are still kinda in the closet because we're afraid of consequences.  This is why screencaps and social media is nice, best way to deal with the privileged?  Save everything.  It's how you handle the likes of them.  When you're used to privilege equality feels like oppression.  

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Just curious how you believe the church could be more anti-LGBT than it already is in order to appeal to the beer drinkers.

Just curious if you believe the church is at a maximalist anti-LGBT position?  Has it made ANY progress on this issue in the last ten years?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Just curious how you believe the church could be more anti-LGBT than it already is in order to appeal to the beer drinkers.

He didn't say anything like this at all, in fact this way of thinking supports his point.

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Everything started going downhill when we stopped burning heretics at the stake.

Indeed! 

In fact, few people know that the "Stake Center", in times past, was literally that! 😳😱

😉

Who knows who will read this- just kidding 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Quote

Just curious how you believe the church could be more anti-LGBT than it already is in order to appeal to the beer drinkers.

Just curious if you believe the church is at a maximalist anti-LGBT position?  Has it made ANY progress on this issue in the last ten years?

The Church has not capitulated on its doctrines pertaining to homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage.

So I think the answer will be . . . no.  No progress.  No matter what we do, the goalposts will always be out of reach.  "Live and let live" is long gone (and, for some, may not have ever actually been there in the first place).  As long as the Church teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful, we will be branded as bigots.  As long as the Church disagrees with same-sex marriage (though recognizing it as part of the law of the land), we will be branded as bigots.

Just look at CB's post.  It appears that, in his view, we can't be "more anti-LGBT than" we already are.  We cannot do any worse than we are now doing.

I'm reminded of this statement attributed to Jordan Peterson:

Quote

Ideologues love vagueness, but specificity is their enemy, because their low-resolution theories cannot deal with differentiated facts. One such example is the standard radical left claim, often implicit, that all differences in power that can be observed between any groups of people spring from injustice. You can make such a claim axiomatic, by defining injustice as that which produces differences in power between groups of people. You can extend it to include all differences in power between individuals as well. The advantage{s} {of} such a claim are twofold. First, you have a convenient answer to a very large set of very complex questions, so you don’t have to study, and research and think. Second, you can claim the moral high-ground, as someone who “opposes discrimination.” It’s a pretty pathetic game, intellectually and morally, and has spawned some seriously virulent and murderous thoughts and actions. You have to go after such dough-like overgeneralization with very sharp knives.

Bland, broad, unsubstantiated, declarations/implications like "{The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be} more anti-LGBT than it already is" epitomizes the sort of "vagueness" Peterson references here.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 9, 2022 by smac97

[california boy]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

The Church has not capitulated on its doctrines pertaining to homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage.

So I think the answer will be . . . no.  No progress.  No matter what we do, the goalposts will always be out of reach.  "Live and let live" is long gone (and, for some, may not have ever actually been there in the first place).  As long as the Church teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful, we will be branded as bigots.  As long as the Church disagrees with same-sex marriage (though recognizing it as part of the law of the land), we will be branded as bigots.

Just look at CB's post.  It appears that, in his view, we can't be "more anti-LGBT than" we already are.  We cannot do any worse than we are now doing.

I'm reminded of this statement attributed to Jordan Peterson:

Bland, broad, unsubstantiated, declarations/implications like "{The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be} more anti-LGBT than it already is" epitomizes the sort of "vagueness" Peterson references here.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I am still curious what you think the Church could do that would be more anti-LGBT than it currently is.  It is just a question.  It is not a statement of my beliefs.

[Stormin' Mormon]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am still curious what you think the Church could do that would be more anti-LGBT than it currently is.  It is just a question.  It is not a statement of my beliefs.

Lots. Use your imagination. Look around at what other, more virulent anti-LGBT churches do.

I asked about what progress the church has made on this issue in the last ten years cuz that's your answer. The church could reverse course on all of it. I'm not saying it should or it will. But there is a lot of daylight between where the church is now and a maximalist anti-LGBT posture.

[Calm]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

am still curious what you think the Church could do that would be more anti-LGBT than it currently is

Just in case it needs to be said for those who don’t know me well enough….I do not endorse any of these behaviours, I see them as immoral or unethical.  I am saying these are possible behaviours, improbable as they would be now thankfully imo even if once a few were culturally acceptable in the greater culture (banning books, for example).

Push for making homosexual behaviour illegal, push for barring transitioning with or without medical treatment, not condemn physical attacks on LGBTs, kick anyone expressing queer feelings out of BYU or out of the Church, teach that homosexuals and other LBT+ are headed for eternal damnation side by side with sons of perdition with no chance of forgiveness.  Encourage families to kick any children professing queer feelings out of the home.  Push for banning any books presenting LGBT+ POV from schools or public libraries.  Push for expelling any child who expresses queer feelings in school or for wearing non-binary clothing. Push for removing children from the care of gay or transgender parents. 
 

In the even more extreme side, make comments that any natural disaster is God punishing LGBT+ and anyone who supports them, such as teach Covid is a result of legalizing gay marriage and other acceptances into society, hold demonstrations at the funerals of anyone in the queer community, and push for legalizing capital punishment for any transgender or homosexual behaviour. 
 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-wins-free-speech-case

https://www.adl.org/blog/anti-gay-rhetoric-in-english-language-isis-and-al-qaeda-magazines

https://www.adl.org/blog/coronavirus-anti-immigration-xenophobia-and-homophobia

Edited February 10, 2022 by Calm

[poptart]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Push for making homosexual behaviour illegal, push for barring transitioning with or without medical treatment, not condemn physical attacks on LGBTs, kick anyone expressing queer feelings out of BYU, out of the Church, teach that homosexuals and other LBT+ are headed for eternal damnation side by side with sons of perdition with no chance of forgiveness.  Encourage families to kick any children professing queer feelings out of the home.  Push for banning any books presenting LGBT+ POV from schools or public libraries.  Push for expelling any child who expresses queer feelings in school or for wearing non-binary clothing. Push for removing children from the care of gay or transgender parents. 
 

In the even more extreme side, make comments that any natural disaster is God punishing LGBT+ and anyone who supports them, such as teach Covid is a result of legalizing gay marriage and other acceptances into society, hold demonstrations at the funerals of anyone in the queer community, and push for legalizing capital punishment for any transgender or homosexual behaviour. 
 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-wins-free-speech-case

https://www.adl.org/blog/anti-gay-rhetoric-in-english-language-isis-and-al-qaeda-magazines

Think a few of the protests they did at Veteran funerals ended violently, the cops showed up just before they were torn apart.  Considering the police scarcity and a lot of people in this country who are sick of them, lets see how much longer this lasts.  I'm waiting for the next riot to break out, if these people are dumb enough to try something, the police may not be there to save them.  Either way, i'll be watching whatever live stream I can find, good times.  People forget, you can only be a privileged jerk so long as you have strong enforcers keeping you away from the mob, times are changing.

Edited February 10, 2022 by poptart

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Lots. Use your imagination. Look around at what other, more virulent anti-LGBT churches do.

I asked about what progress the church has made on this issue in the last ten years cuz that's your answer. The church could reverse course on all of it. I'm not saying it should or it will. But there is a lot of daylight between where the church is now and a maximalist anti-LGBT posture.

 

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Think a few of the protests they did at Veteran funerals ended violently, the cops showed up just before they were torn apart.  Considering the police scarcity and a lot of people in this country who are sick of them, lets see how much longer this lasts.  I'm waiting for the next riot to break out, if these people are dumb enough to try something, the police may not be there to save them.  Either way, i'll be watching whatever live stream I can find, good times.  People forget, you can only be a privileged jerk so long as you have strong enforcers keeping you away from the mob, times are changing.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Push for making homosexual behaviour illegal, push for barring transitioning with or without medical treatment, not condemn physical attacks on LGBTs, kick anyone expressing queer feelings out of BYU, out of the Church, teach that homosexuals and other LBT+ are headed for eternal damnation side by side with sons of perdition with no chance of forgiveness.  Encourage families to kick any children professing queer feelings out of the home.  Push for banning any books presenting LGBT+ POV from schools or public libraries.  Push for expelling any child who expresses queer feelings in school or for wearing non-binary clothing. Push for removing children from the care of gay or transgender parents. 
 

In the even more extreme side, make comments that any natural disaster is God punishing LGBT+ and anyone who supports them, such as teach Covid is a result of legalizing gay marriage and other acceptances into society, hold demonstrations at the funerals of anyone in the queer community, and push for legalizing capital punishment for any transgender or homosexual behaviour. 
 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/anti-gay-westboro-baptist-church-wins-free-speech-case

https://www.adl.org/blog/anti-gay-rhetoric-in-english-language-isis-and-al-qaeda-magazines

https://www.adl.org/blog/coronavirus-anti-immigration-xenophobia-and-homophobia

 

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Lots. Use your imagination. Look around at what other, more virulent anti-LGBT churches do.

I asked about what progress the church has made on this issue in the last ten years cuz that's your answer. The church could reverse course on all of it. I'm not saying it should or it will. But there is a lot of daylight between where the church is now and a maximalist anti-LGBT posture.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I do personally think  that the Church has made some progress over the last 20 years.  I was just curious what others thought the Church could do to the LGBT community.  I appreciate your response.

Edited February 10, 2022 by california boy