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Interconnectedness in the Christian faith


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1 minute ago, Olmec Donald said:

Thank you very much for clarifying, I had misunderstood you.  I thought you were trying to make the Mormon church look bad by using its own words, in particular quotes which seem to preclude the kind of brotherhood and kinship that @Paloma perceives.

 

 

Nope!! I think the best way for the Mormon church to move forward is to embrace its “weirdness”, not try to be another Christian church. I’m a Mormon, I’m a saint, I don’t consider myself to be a Christian in the traditional sense. Half my family are Mormons and the other half are Christians (baptist, Methodist). They think we Mormons are being deceived by the devil and we’ll end up in hell after we die. I don’t want to be under the Christian tent. We’re the richest church maybe 2nd richest in the world. We don’t need to sneak our way  into the Christian tent. I think we erect our own damn tent and let the people come and find shelter under our tent. Is Mormonism weird? Yes! So what! 

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16 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

They think we Mormons are being deceived by the devil and we’ll end up in hell after we die.

If that happens, I'm sure the Mormons will just irrigate.  It worked in Utah; it'll work in hell.  

;^)

Seriously, thanks for explaining where you're coming from.  

Are you okay with other Mormons seeing @Paloma and other Christians as fellow disciples and brothers?  

Edited by Olmec Donald
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39 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

I’m not comfortable with my Mormon faith turning into just another Christian denomination. I grew up with President GBH saying MORMON meant more good! Now I’m being told not to use the word Mormon to describe my faith. I’m sorry, it doesn’t make any sense to me. In my opinion, Mormonism will slowly fade away while trying to find a home under the Christian tent. If Mormonism is just another Christian denomination, why be Mormon when you could be a Christian in a faith that’s not so strict?  

Mike, for myself as a non-LDS Christian, I've experienced different self-identifiers of what it means to be LDS in relation to Christianity.  In the early 1970's, I spent time with some LDS missionaries who made it clear that they were Mormon not Christian and that Mormonism was not part of Christianity.  Subsequently I've seen much more of an emphasis on Mormonism falling within the broad picture of Christianity and claims that Latter Day Saints are definitely Christian - a claim that I've accepted at face value and also seen for myself in the professed and lived-out faith of individuals within the LDS church.  I've also been told (about twenty years ago) that I am not a 'true' Christian because I do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  (That was only one LDS missionary, and I've always seen that as an outlier and not a mainstream LDS view.  In fact, that missionary was taken to task by his senior companion for speaking to me that way.)

When you say "why be Mormon when you could be a Christian in a faith that's not so strict?", I think about these verses of a Christian hymn, and I see what's expressed in these verses as part of my own 'connectedness' with my LDS friends.  As you can see in these verses, there is absolute commitment beyond the LDS church.  The question about whether we can accept and respect each other as Christians with a shared heritage remains for each individual believer.

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride.
 
Were every realm of nature mine
My gift would still be far too small
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all.
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25 minutes ago, Paloma said:

The question about whether we can accept and respect each other as Christians with a shared heritage remains for each individual believer.

 

Mikedrop, I now see that you prefer to not see Mormonism falling within the Christian tent and I can now more readily understand your view.  In light of your own view, I can imagine how my words come across as prejudicial where I sound like I'm using "Christian" as the ultimate standard.  That gives me pause for thought ... .  I do think there's room for both our own personal preferences and convictions, and for understanding and respecting those who think differently.  

Now I see that the possibility of 'connectedness' between us probably includes my eliminating a common perceived 'Christian' identity and trying to more deeply understand each other without that misconception.   

Edited by Paloma
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28 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Mike, for myself as a non-LDS Christian, I've experienced different self-identifiers of what it means to be LDS in relation to Christianity.  In the early 1970's, I spent time with some LDS missionaries who made it clear that they were Mormon not Christian and that Mormonism was not part of Christianity.  Subsequently I've seen much more of an emphasis on Mormonism falling within the broad picture of Christianity and claims that Latter Day Saints are definitely Christian - a claim that I've accepted at face value and also seen for myself in the professed and lived-out faith of individuals within the LDS church.  I've also been told (about twenty years ago) that I am not a 'true' Christian because I do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  (That was only one LDS missionary, and I've always seen that as an outlier and not a mainstream LDS view.  In fact, that missionary was taken to task by his senior companion for speaking to me that way.)

When you say "why be Mormon when you could be a Christian in a faith that's not so strict?", I think about these verses of a Christian hymn, and I see what's expressed in these verses as part of my own 'connectedness' with my LDS friends.  As you can see in these verses, there is absolute commitment beyond the LDS church.  The question about whether we can accept and respect each other as Christians with a shared heritage remains for each individual believer.

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride.
 
Were every realm of nature mine
My gift would still be far too small
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

I went through a faith crisis just over a year ago and I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to two or three reasons why. The main reason would probably be being told not to use the word Mormon anymore. I think when Pres. Nelson said that, something changed inside of me. 
 

   Most my life I’ve been criticized by Christians. When I was young I took my quad (Mormon scriptures) into a baptist church and the youth minister took my scriptures and placed them outside the door because he thought they were a tool of the devil. I’ve had uncles sit in my parents house when I was young and preach for hours that we were wolves in sheep’s  clothing. I had neighbors that volunteered for Pat  Robertson at CBN that wouldn’t let me swim in their pool because they I would infect their kids with Mormonism. One of my best friends who was Christian loved the WWE and we would wrestle all the time until his mother found out I was Mormon. I personally have no desire to be considered a Christian. I’ve payed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing to the church willingly and it upsets me more than you can imagine that Mormonism is shrinking. Pageants  are gone, roadshows, Boy Scouts, 1 hour of church disappear, everything I loved is gone! It’s as if the church is throwing everything overboard to survive. Me!! If I was in charge I would be doing the exact opposite. 

Edited by Mike Drop
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25 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

I went through a faith crisis just over a year ago and I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to two or three reasons why. The main reason would probably be being told not to use the word Mormon anymore. I think when Pres. Nelson said that, something changed inside of me. 
 

   Most my life I’ve been criticized by Christians. When I was young I took my quad (Mormon scriptures) into a baptist church and the youth minister took my scriptures and placed them outside the door because he thought they were a tool of the devil. I’ve had uncles sit in my parents house when I was young and preach for hours that we were wolves in sheep’s  clothing. I had neighbors that volunteered for Pat  Robertson at CBN that wouldn’t let me swim in their pool because they I would infect their kids with Mormonism. One of my best friends who was Christian loved the WWE and we would wrestle all the time until his mother found out I was Mormon. I personally have no desire to be considered a Christian. I’ve payed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing to the church willingly and it upsets me more than you can imagine that Mormonism is shrinking. Pageants  are gone, roadshows, Boy Scouts, 1 hour of church disappear, everything I loved is gone! It’s as if the church is throwing everything overboard to survive. Me!! If I was in charge I would be doing the exact opposite. 

Thank you for sharing these thoughts, Mike.  Your passion for the church you love comes through along with how hard it is to see the changes that go against so much of what you've seen as core identity and values  ... and even a good way forward in your view.

I've been aware of some of the harsh rhetoric and actions toward Mormonism from some Christian denominations and individuals, and I can only imagine how horrible it must be to actually experience that.  I think Christianity in general has a terrible track record when it comes to walking the way of peace and love.  I've experienced very little prejudice in my own life.  But I want to be more and more committed to understanding the damage that religious bigotry and rejection cause.  And I want to root out of myself anything that would in any way contribute to that travesty of 'Christian' thought and behaviour that is, in my opinion, anything but reflective of Jesus Christ. 

Edited by Paloma
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21 hours ago, Paloma said:

I’ve been thinking about how we, as Christian believers, have a debt to all who have gone before us in the world of connecting with God and trying to understand what that means in terms of the nature of our relationship with Him re our own past and present and future.

There was a time when I was much more clueless and insular in my thinking and experience.  In fact, as a Protestant, I probably felt rather satisfied and superior  and saw my own faith community as somehow “above” that of Judaism, Islam and Catholicism … and all of the other ‘isms’ out there.

I don’t think and feel that way anymore.  I’ve been on a journey of moving away from ethnocentrism, egocentrism and other unexamined personal assumptions and prejudices for quite awhile.

I’m really thankful for a number of book companions I’ve had along the way like Thomas Cahill’s The Gift of the Jews;  Thomas Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization; Clark Pinnock’s A Wideness in God’s Mercy etc. 

Studying church history (I like the 2 volume church history texts by Gustavo Gutierrez) and just reflecting on all those who have gone ahead of us including the ‘examples of faith’ in Hebrews 11 and the early Christian martyrs have given me a broad perspective that I value.

I’ve repented of the way that I once thought we Protestants and even beyond that, Anabaptists, were somehow especially enlightened. 

When I think of the more recent Christian martyrs like Tyndale and Wycliffe who helped provide our modern Bibles and paid with their lives, I am humbled.  And then I think of the centuries when the scriptures were preserved and laboriously copied in countless monasteries, and I’m even more convicted of ever failing to see my deep dependence on them and community with them!

And I see this in Christian missions, too.  The reason we have access to different lands and peoples and written materials including Bible translations, is because of many pioneers, many of whom gave their lives for this missionary effort.  Even today missionaries are giving of themselves sacrificially.  And of course, we do gain so much when we give!

I’m just reflecting on how much we are interconnected with those who have gone before us, and wonder if some of you have the same thoughts of what a debt we owe.  I find it both humbling and generosity-inducing as I feel a kinship with those who are different and yet soul- kindred in the furtherance of loving God and loving people.

i attribute every good thought and belief to God, and I believe we need to connect with God to be able to get one.  Otherwise we will be deceived by Satan into believing something that is not good.  Abraham's desire was to receive all of the promises God had given to his fathers, beginning with Adam I think, and all disciples of Christ should seek the same blessings which God will also promise to give us.  That is the way I would like to be connected to every Christian disciple. Abraham's desire is now mine.

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Christianity, in my imagery, is a wonderful and mighty flowing river. Its source is “In the beginning, God . . . ” and its mouth is the wide-expansive-beyond-understanding ocean of eternity yet-to-come.

In its journey over many thousands of years of human existence, it has received a constant renewal of water from thousands of tributaries, arroyos, rivers, rivulets, streams, and creeks flowing into it to make it stronger and better able to sustain itself. Some have been powerful and mighty rivers on their own. Others have sometimes been dry and lifeless while at other times filling to capacity with living water. Like the mighty Missouri and Ohio feed and replenish the mightier Mississippi, so have many streams fed Christianity.

The mightiest river does not reject whatever sustenance is offered by others. So it is with Christianity. The Christian community is fed by many tributaries, which at times we name denominations, sects, groups, churches, creeds, persuasions, religions, and the like. Whether there are those rowing down the mighty river who may deny it, the river would never reach the sea without being enriched and renewed by its many tributaries. Each tributary is different in the water that it provides.

Where I live, the Piedras Verdes is green, cold, and clear. A mile from my house, it joins with the warmer, more polluted, and much longer-running waters of the Palanganas. I have had one foot in each at the point they join to form the Casas Grandes. One can feel the difference in the water flowing past each foot. So it is with Christianity. Some tributaries are still and calm; others rage over the rocks with a roughness that threatens all who dare attempt their currents. In the end, the water mixes, creating a force more potent than any individual tributary. The resulting liquid is a blend of all that has joined together to create new life (The Living Water) on the journey.

Many of us on this forum represent different tributaries, different flows. However, in the end, Christ, the Lord of the River, will welcome whom He will into the vast ocean of eternity. It takes many streams, the Cumberland, Kentucky, Tennessee, Miami, and the Wabash, to name just a few, to form the Ohio River. It takes hundreds of Ohio Rivers to form the Mississippi. No individual stream can with any certainty say, “I am the most important,” or I am the trustworthy source of all that power. Each tributary ebbs and flows, only to return in due season to once again nourish the onward journey. Many faiths nourish, have nourished, and will nourish Christianity on its continual journey to the sea. Not all are Christian in and of themselves, but all in some way make the river stronger, its journey steadier, and its outpouring into eternity more secure. Yes, we are each of us, but individual sailors in our little boats, seeking eternity, the end of our journey. May God richly bless us as we paddle on!

Oh, and one last thing. Are there other mighty rivers leading to the same sea? One thing I know, there is a wideness in God’s mercy. There is a wideness in the sea of eternity. There is a wideness in my hope that the aforementioned Lord of the River is, in reality, the Lord of the Rivers.     

Edited by Navidad
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40 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

Pageants  are gone, roadshows, Boy Scouts,

And yet there is nothing uniquely “Mormon” about any of these three. I have seen similar efforts in other faiths. Nor is there anything doctrinal about the above, it was social, fun stuff. Pageants were good missionary tools and I wonder why they were discontinued (my guess is it was getting too hard to find enough committed people who could also afford the time commitment).  I don’t see how losing any of those that would somehow mainstream us.

I can see why it would be very disappointing if one enjoyed them.  I did not.  Maybe if roadshow participation had been optional in my wards.  As an introvert, roadshows made me loathe MIA.

And I can see why the dropping of “Mormon” is disliked by so many and I don’t particularly get why such a definite line was drawn given the term is a huge part of our heritage. It feels like having a tradition of a first name being passed down in the family, there was just a ceremony celebrating the latest child to be given the name (I’m a Mormon campaign) and then suddenly the head of the family is telling everyone it’s dropped, anyone with the name would have to change it unless older than 80 (historic usage is still okay) and the family should only be known by their surname. 
 

I like a lot of the changes as I wasn’t attached to “Mormon”, it is the banning of its use among members except for historical names that I don’t understand even if I can see easily see asking members to use it because it will help identify us as Christian (and I suspect most members don’t mind being seen as one though I know of a handful who do because of being bullied for being Mormon by Christians when younger).

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

I’m not comfortable with my Mormon faith turning into just another Christian denomination.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Drop said:

 Half my family are Mormons and the other half are Christians (baptist, Methodist). They think we Mormons are being deceived by the devil and we’ll end up in hell after we die. 

 

45 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

I went through a faith crisis just over a year ago and I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to two or three reasons why. The main reason would probably be being told not to use the word Mormon anymore. I think when Pres. Nelson said that, something changed inside of me. 

 

45 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

Most my life I’ve been criticized by Christians. When I was young I took my quad (Mormon scriptures) into a baptist church and the youth minister took my scriptures and placed them outside the door because he thought they were a tool of the devil. I’ve had uncles sit in my parents house when I was young and preach for hours that we were wolves in sheep’s  clothing. I had neighbors that volunteered for Pat  Robertson at CBN that wouldn’t let me swim in their pool because they I would infect their kids with Mormonism. One of my best friends who was Christian loved the WWE and we would wrestle all the time until his mother found out I was Mormon. I personally have no desire to be considered a Christian.

 

45 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

I’ve payed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing to the church willingly and it upsets me more than you can imagine that Mormonism is shrinking. Pageants  are gone, roadshows, Boy Scouts, 1 hour of church disappear, everything I loved is gone! It’s as if the church is throwing everything overboard to survive.  

Mike, it sounds to me like you have a lot of grievances against various Christian individuals or groups, and also against the LDS church.   I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple of questions:

Does treasuring your grievances offer you anything of real value?

What would your world look like if you chose to forgive them all?  

Edited by Olmec Donald
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8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Christianity, in my imagery, is a wonderful and mighty flowing river. Its source is “In the beginning, God . . . ” and its mouth is the wide-expansive-beyond-understanding ocean of eternity yet-to-come.

...

 

Oh, and one last thing. Are there other mighty rivers leading to the same sea? One thing I know, there is a wideness in God’s mercy. There is a wideness in the sea of eternity. There is a wideness in my hope that the aforementioned Lord of the River is, in reality, also the Lord of the Rivers.     

 

What beautiful imagery, Navidad.

I deeply appreciate what you've so poetically and vividly - and hopefully - written.  

 

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17 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

i attribute every good thought and belief to God, and I believe we need to connect with God to be able to get one.  Otherwise we will be deceived by Satan into believing something that is not good.  Abraham's desire was to receive all of the promises God had given to his fathers, beginning with Adam I think, and all disciples of Christ should seek the same blessings which God will also promise to give us.  That is the way I would like to be connected to every Christian disciple. Abraham's desire is now mine.

Brothers and sisters in the spirit of Abraham who desired all of God's blessings and was called "friend of God" works for me!  That James 2: 23 reference must surely resonate with you, James! 🙂

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46 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

Most my life I’ve been criticized by Christians.

...

I personally have no desire to be considered a Christian. 

Don't allow Christians to turn you against Christ.  Christians should not have the power to give a bad name to anyone who follows Christ, as his disciple.

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4 hours ago, James 1 5 said:

Don't allow Christians to turn you against Christ.  Christians should not have the power to give a bad name to anyone who follows Christ, as his disciple.

Amen! Neither LDS Christians nor non-LDS Christians have that power or authority. How about none of us speak badly about anyone?

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18 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

I went through a faith crisis just over a year ago and I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to two or three reasons why. The main reason would probably be being told not to use the word Mormon anymore. I think when Pres. Nelson said that, something changed inside of me. 
 

   Most my life I’ve been criticized by Christians. When I was young I took my quad (Mormon scriptures) into a baptist church and the youth minister took my scriptures and placed them outside the door because he thought they were a tool of the devil. I’ve had uncles sit in my parents house when I was young and preach for hours that we were wolves in sheep’s  clothing. I had neighbors that volunteered for Pat  Robertson at CBN that wouldn’t let me swim in their pool because they I would infect their kids with Mormonism. One of my best friends who was Christian loved the WWE and we would wrestle all the time until his mother found out I was Mormon. I personally have no desire to be considered a Christian. I’ve payed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing to the church willingly and it upsets me more than you can imagine that Mormonism is shrinking. Pageants  are gone, roadshows, Boy Scouts, 1 hour of church disappear, everything I loved is gone! It’s as if the church is throwing everything overboard to survive. Me!! If I was in charge I would be doing the exact opposite. 

Well it's about time to learn of maybe the reasons you come off a little edgy on matters. :) Good to know the background! I miss the very same things you do. I miss the home teaching and visiting teaching days, I even had a special room for them to visit and when building our home that was what that room was called. Now it's called ministering, and to me, old school that I am, it sounded very evangelical to me, that word for some odd reason. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Well it's about time to learn of maybe the reasons you come off a little edgy on matters. :) Good to know the background! I miss the very same things you do. I miss the home teaching and visiting teaching days, I even had a special room for them to visit and when building our home that was what that room was called. Now it's called ministering, and to me, old school that I am, it sounded very evangelical to me, that word for some odd reason. 

 

I absolutely love getting to a deeper understanding of people and so I'm thrilled to see your post, Tacenda.  As a long-time reader/seldom poster on this board, I see you as someone truly 'people-centred', ruggedly speaking your own truth.  You come across as liking and accepting everyone - something I really admire in you.  

So seeing you value a "heart level" insight into Mike doesn't surprise me.

Also, I enjoyed what you wrote about yourself.  When you mentioned "sounded very evangelical" I smiled to myself because, though I would consider myself an Evangelical", I saw and appreciated it with your eyes. In your place, I expect I would think just the same!

 

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9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

...

In it all, I’m amazed at the patience and ability of God to work with such imperfect vessels in weird and unexpected circumstances. 
 

 

Loved reading your post, BlueDreams.  Such deep reflective thoughts ... and I appreciate this insight into your LDS soul, as it helps expand my own understanding.

I really like the wisdom of your signature:  "We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are".

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19 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

 

 

 

 

Mike, it sounds to me like you have a lot of grievances against various Christian individuals or groups, and also against the LDS church.   I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple of questions:

Does treasuring your grievances offer you anything of real value?

What would your world look like if you chose to forgive them all?  

No no no! I love Christians and get along better with my Christian family than my Mormon family. I’m just pointing out why I have no desire to be considered a “Christian”. You do realize everything you think I complained about, us Mormons do the exact, and I mean exact same thing! Just like my uncle coming to my parents house and preaching Christianity, we go to Christian households and preach Mormonism. That’s what doesn’t make sense to me! If we’re “Christians” will someone please tell me why missionaries don’t turn around and walk away after finding out the person behind the door they just knocked on is Christian?? We preach Christianity isn’t enough to get us back to our heavenly parents. We also preach believing in Christ isn’t enough to get us back to our heavenly parents. It’s enough to get us into a lower degree of heaven, but not to our heavenly parents. To us, christianity is an end to eternal progress, no? 
 

To me, trying to find shelter in Christianity is a huuuuge mistake! Christians are wonderful people, wonderful! But if we’re going to redefine what Mormonism is, lets do it without trying to look like just another Christian denomination. You guys see that as a negative, I see it as a positive, 100% positive! Me saying we don’t need to find shelter inside the tent of Christianity isn’t a negative, even though most of you are taking it that way, it’s a positive. The difference between me and most of the Mormons reading what I write is I don’t let fear guide my heart. I believe Mormonism can be a force for good all by itself! We don’t need Christianity, that’s not a diss to Christianity or Christians. 

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8 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

...

We don’t need Christianity, that’s not a diss to Christianity or Christians. 

More insight, Mike Drop.  Bravo!

There are lots of people here willing to share their true thoughts as well as really listen to others and give them the benefit of the doubt - and you're one of them.  Therein lies real connectedness and understanding.

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5 hours ago, Paloma said:

I absolutely love getting to a deeper understanding of people and so I'm thrilled to see your post, Tacenda.  As a long-time reader/seldom poster on this board, I see you as someone truly 'people-centred', ruggedly speaking your own truth.  You come across as liking and accepting everyone - something I really admire in you.  

So seeing you value a "heart level" insight into Mike doesn't surprise me.

Also, I enjoyed what you wrote about yourself.  When you mentioned "sounded very evangelical" I smiled to myself because, though I would consider myself an Evangelical", I saw and appreciated it with your eyes. In your place, I expect I would think just the same!

 

Thanks for your empathy by seeing through my eyes Paloma, that's very Christlike. 👏  I realize now how that may have come off derogatory, my post about ministering sounding like Evangelicals.

It's interesting how we all are conditioned to believe one way and others a different way. You are a classy person Paloma. I hope you post more often. 

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5 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

We don’t need Christianity, that’s not a diss to Christianity or Christians. 

And we (non-LDS Christians) don't need the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to help us on our way to eternal life. That's not a diss to members of the LDS church or to the church, itself.

I have found myself fascinated by your recent comments. I find them both accurate and quite honest, if not just a tiny bit easy to interpret as abrupt. There is no question one of the great challenges in this forum is the monological nature of the conversation. Except for Bill Maher, I generally don't like monologues. When I taught preaching, I always encouraged dialogical preaching.

I guess I would only differ from you in my assertion and belief that we are each part of the broad community of Christianity by virtue of our commitment to Christ and His atonement. I have seen Christians on the savannas and in the jungles of Africa. I have taught those who say they are Messianic Jews - Jews in a Christian tradition.

As I wrote yesterday, I believe Christianity has many tributaries. It is clear you don't want to be, but I believe you are already a part of the big community of Christianity by your own personal relationship to Christ - not by membership in this or that church, or accepting this or that other doctrine. Oh . . . and that's not a diss to you either! Have a good day!

 

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15 hours ago, Navidad said:

but I believe you are already a part of the big community of Christianity by your own personal relationship to Christ

Thank you!! Question, does my personal relationship with Christ afford me the opportunity to live with him again? 

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1 hour ago, Mike Drop said:

Thank you!! Question, does my personal relationship with Christ afford me the opportunity to live with him again? 

Depends on whether you support His Purposes in making this Creation, the reasons for the Fall, and the Plan of Happiness.

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