Interesting development with BYU

[rongo]

BYU is requiring all faculty and staff (excluding student employees) to hold and be worthy of a temple recommend (which precludes nominally having one, but acting in a manner contrary to that).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires

I find this very interesting because it further supports the recent retrenchment in other things. It appears to me that Elder Holland really got attention when he expressed anger at wayward faculty who overtly and covertly undermine the Church and testimonies. 

I wonder how this will affect the much ballyhooed 26 point action plan for diversity announced last year --- with respect to faculty. It sounds like only active, TR-worthy members will be allowed to be faculty. I didn't see any exception to that. 

[Buckeye]

I believe the TR requirement applies only to future-hires who are members of church. BYU will still have non-member faculty. Some of the best there are non-members. 

[HappyJackWagon]

27 minutes ago, rongo said:

BYU is requiring all faculty and staff (excluding student employees) to hold and be worthy of a temple recommend (which precludes nominally having one, but acting in a manner contrary to that).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires

I find this very interesting because it further supports the recent retrenchment in other things. It appears to me that Elder Holland really got attention when he expressed anger at wayward faculty who overtly and covertly undermine the Church and testimonies. 

I wonder how this will affect the much ballyhooed 26 point action plan for diversity announced last year --- with respect to faculty. It sounds like only active, TR-worthy members will be allowed to be faculty. I didn't see any exception to that. 

I thought this was always the case.  I always thought the ecclesiastical endorsement for members meant a TR

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hooray cloistering!  It got Catholicism through the dark ages, perhaps it can preserve us Saints through the dark times ahead.

(I wish it was 2 years ago when this post would give everyone a chuckle, instead of having y'all just assume I'm serious.)

[rongo]

53 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I believe the TR requirement applies only to future-hires who are members of church. BYU will still have non-member faculty. Some of the best there are non-members. 

That would make sense, but that isn't what it read like. Including the FAQ in the article. 

ETA: Disregard. The headline makes clear that it is only for LDS new hires. 

It's still a shot across the bow to the agitating LDS faculty that they are being scrutinized as to their behavior. Undermining the Church on the part of faculty has been an increasing problem (numerous anecdotal stories from people I know, Elder Holland's letter, etc.).

Edited January 27, 2022 by rongo

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I thought this was always the case.  I always thought the ecclesiastical endorsement for members meant a TR

Me too.  I couldn't really see how this was a change.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

That would make sense, but that isn't what it read like. Including the FAQ in the article. 

ETA: Disregard. The headline makes clear that it is only for LDS new hires. 

It's still a shot across the bow to the agitating LDS faculty that they are being scrutinized as to their behavior. Undermining the Church on the part of faculty has been an increasing problem (numerous anecdotal stories from people I know, Elder Holland's letter, etc.).

Too many members who are members in name only, or who have very divergent beliefs but still are active, want to trade on the street cred of being in the CES or at BYU while keeping their 'non-kosher' ideologies.  No one should be forced to pretend to believe something they don't, but these kinds of positions should go to people who support the goals of the institution. 

If you can't do that then you probably need to move on.

Edited January 27, 2022 by bluebell

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, rongo said:

BYU is requiring all faculty and staff (excluding student employees) to hold and be worthy of a temple recommend (which precludes nominally having one, but acting in a manner contrary to that).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires

I find this very interesting because it further supports the recent retrenchment in other things. It appears to me that Elder Holland really got attention when he expressed anger at wayward faculty who overtly and covertly undermine the Church and testimonies. 

I wonder how this will affect the much ballyhooed 26 point action plan for diversity announced last year --- with respect to faculty. It sounds like only active, TR-worthy members will be allowed to be faculty. I didn't see any exception to that. 

I think being worthy of a temple recommend would be of great value in accessing the Holy Spirit while participating on councils responsible for approving and implementing the 26 recommended reforms listed for Race, Equity and Belonging Report. Whether these councils would benefit from the participation of the unworthy is yet to be seen; at least the surveys on which the recommendations are based include the that subset.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I thought this was always the case.  I always thought the ecclesiastical endorsement for members meant a TR

Stands to reason, but no. A bishop could endorse someone who didn't have a temple recommend, and having a TR didn't replace the need for a separate endorsement interview. 

I'm sure the Venn diagram between TR and endorsement was basically one circle, in almost all cases. This codifies it. 

[rongo]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

To many members who are members in name only, or who have very divergent beliefs but still are active, want to trade on the street cred of being in the CES or at BYU while keeping their 'non-kosher' ideologies.  No one should be forced to pretend to believe something they don't, but these kinds of positions should go to people who support the goals of the institution. 

If you can't do that then you probably need to move on.

I think it's that these people specifically want to be snakes in the grass, embedded Fifth Columnists. It's not that they happen to not believe or disagree with key things --- they are actively building disciples and seeking to build followings. And succeeding in many cases.

[strappinglad]

How many of the so called " agitators " would hesitate to lie in order to get a TR ? The end justifies the means. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

BYU is requiring all faculty and staff (excluding student employees) to hold and be worthy of a temple recommend (which precludes nominally having one, but acting in a manner contrary to that).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires

I find this very interesting because it further supports the recent retrenchment in other things. It appears to me that Elder Holland really got attention when he expressed anger at wayward faculty who overtly and covertly undermine the Church and testimonies. 

I wonder how this will affect the much ballyhooed 26 point action plan for diversity announced last year --- with respect to faculty. It sounds like only active, TR-worthy members will be allowed to be faculty. I didn't see any exception to that. 

I know of cases in which non-LDS scholars were faculty members for a time, but know of no case in which they achieved "continuing status" (the BYU equivalent of "tenure," which isn't really tenure).  In other cases, BYU faculty who were regarded as oddballs ended up at UVU or elsewhere.  I suppose that that is a type of "diversity."  And it is a free bus ride from BYU to UVU down University Parkway and back.

[Robert F. Smith]

27 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think it's that these people specifically want to be snakes in the grass, embedded Fifth Columnists. It's not that they happen to not believe or disagree with key things --- they are actively building disciples and seeking to build followings. And succeeding in many cases.

Ooh.  Sounds like conspiracy is in the air.  The ones I am familiar with, who built a cult of personality, were always quite far to the right.  They didn't last long.

[Robert F. Smith]

16 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

How many of the so called " agitators " would hesitate to lie in order to get a TR ? The end justifies the means. 

What we really need to worry about are those who didn't lie, who have real TRs, but who have built up a Qanon following with shades of John Birch (who was himself never a Bircher).

[smac97]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

BYU is requiring all faculty and staff (excluding student employees) to hold and be worthy of a temple recommend (which precludes nominally having one, but acting in a manner contrary to that).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/1/27/22901919/byu-other-latter-day-saint-schools-will-require-temple-recommends-for-new-hires

I am very happy to hear this.

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I find this very interesting because it further supports the recent retrenchment in other things.

"Retrenchment" is defined as:

Quote

1. the act of retrenching; a cutting down or off, as by the reduction of expenses.

2. Fortification. an interior work that cuts off a part of a fortification from the rest, and to which a garrison may retreat.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "recent retrenchment in other things."  Could you elaborate?

2 hours ago, rongo said:

It appears to me that Elder Holland really got attention when he expressed anger at wayward faculty who overtly and covertly undermine the Church and testimonies. 

I concur.  I think we occasionally see people within the Church who by design and intent are working against it, working to subvert and undermine it.  We also see people in the Church who are engaging in conduct that also works against the Church, that subverts and undermines it, regardless of whether the conduct is actually intended to have that effect. 

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I wonder how this will affect the much ballyhooed 26 point action plan for diversity announced last year --- with respect to faculty. It sounds like only active, TR-worthy members will be allowed to be faculty. I didn't see any exception to that. 

Non-Latter-day-Saint applicants will also be considered.

Thanks,

-Smac

[why me]

People usually go through various phases of development. I can see a new hire being active but then begin to waiver a year or two later. What then? What happens to the faculty member. Fired? Of course one can lie for the recommendation. Still the ability to be free is limited. And I think that there would be a period of suffocation where one could not figuratively breathe. Not to mention the pressure to keep on the straight and narrow.

[rongo]

50 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

How many of the so called " agitators " would hesitate to lie in order to get a TR ? The end justifies the means. 

The problem for them in this era is that in trying to gain a following, there is a paper/e-trail. Sometimes, leaders have concerns (through their own knowledge, or because it's been brought to their attention by others), so the "pat" answers don't cut it, and they discuss their concerns. 

This makes it more likely that problematic people won't be able to stay there if they have a record of behavior, even if they give the "correct" answers on the TR interview.

[rongo]

39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Ooh.  Sounds like conspiracy is in the air.  The ones I am familiar with, who built a cult of personality, were always quite far to the right.  They didn't last long.

Different times. The ones now that I am aware of are far to the left (and proselyting for that) and actively and passively undercutting the Church. These are social justice-related, but are resulting in young men and young women going completely inactive, formally leaving the Church, or picking up the torch and agitating to bring about policy and doctrinal change in the Church. In many cases, this is causing rifts in families --- when parents and siblings are trying to be loving, understanding, and even empathetic, it is met with rage when they don't join in in bashing and agitation. I have heard from many couples in the stake who have lost/are losing their children because of specific BYU professors, and this was before Elder Holland's talk. 

I had mentioned before in another thread a couple (my wife's best friend's daughter and her husband) who are seriously talking about having their names removed. Their downward spiral started at BYU. 

[rongo]

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Retrenchment" is defined as:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "recent retrenchment in other things."  Could you elaborate?

There are other uses as well. Brigham Young's efforts to keep youth from falling into bad company and bad habits (the forming of the Mutual Improvement Association) was referred to as "retrenchment." 

In economics, it is a term used to denote "reduce and simplify," (as in one of your definitions, "a cutting down or off, as by the reduction of expenses"). Your other definition fits as well: "Fortification. an interior work that cuts off a part of a fortification from the rest, and to which a garrison may retreat."

The image fits the situation: BYU is retrenching to a better position of protection by reverting back to insisting on the fidelity of LDS staff. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

That would make sense, but that isn't what it read like. Including the FAQ in the article. 

ETA: Disregard. The headline makes clear that it is only for LDS new hires. 

It's still a shot across the bow to the agitating LDS faculty that they are being scrutinized as to their behavior. Undermining the Church on the part of faculty has been an increasing problem (numerous anecdotal stories from people I know, Elder Holland's letter, etc.).

I hope it's more than that.  I don't want anyone to lose their job, but sometimes it's a necessary thing.  Consider what Spenser Rapone tried to do to the Army, which was join it with the purpose of undermining and subverting it from within:

Quote

Last September, a West Point cadet’s pictures of himself at his graduation ceremony flaunting his devotion to communism made national headlines and sparked fury from current and former soldiers. Spenser Rapone posted pictures on social media in which he was wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt under his uniform and wrote “communism will win” under his cap. This was really the least of it as a deeper dive into Rapone’s social media profiles revealed that he does not support the U.S. Constitution and believes that our government cannot be reformed and must be destroyed so that a communist government can be erected in its place.

SOFREP reported on Spenser Rapone at the time in an article titled, “The Calls are Coming From Inside the House: America’s Communist Insider Threat.” At the time, SOFREP spoke to a former Delta Force Sergeant Major who expressed concern because West Point is the feeder mechanism to put officers into the Ranger Regiment and Special Forces, which in turn acts as a feeder for JSOC units like Delta. By Rapone’s own admission, he followed a communist philosophy advocated by Rudi Dutschke.

Dutschke advocated a strategy he called the, “long march through the institutions of power.” This entails burrowing inside the institutions of society, including the military, and subverting them from within and ultimately setting the conditions for a communist revolution. As we’ve seen in the recent past, ideological actors working inside the system such as Edward Snowden can do a tremendous amount of damage to national security. The idea of an avowed communist subverting important military units and functions from within has the potential to be catastrophic.

I sure hope we aren't seeing similar things at BYU.  Faculty members who subscribe to a "long march through the institutions of power"-style effort to subvert BYU from within.  I can't help but wonder if this subversive strategy is a partial explanation for the paradox of watching people who publicly speak and act against the Church throwing public hissy fits when they lose their membership in the Church because of their misconduct.  It's like they resent being deprived of the ongoing opportunity to subvert the Church from within.

See also this letter about the state of West Point (in relation to Rapone's attendance there) :

Quote

(This was written by LTC (USA, ret.) Robert M. Heffington, as an open letter to graduates of the United States Military Academy at West Point. It has only been edited for format, and may differ in that respect from the original. My apologies to Lt. Colonel Heffington if this has been misrepresented in any way)

Dear Sir/Ma’am,

Before you read any further, please understand that the following paragraphs come from a place of intense devotion and loyalty to West Point. My experience as a cadet had a profound impact upon who I am and upon the course of my life, and I remain forever grateful that I have the opportunity to be a part of the Long Gray Line. I firmly believe West Point is a national treasure and that it can and should remain a vitally important source of well trained, disciplined, highly educated Army officers and civilian leaders. However, during my time on the West Point faculty (2006–2009 and again from 2013–2017), I personally witnessed a series of fundamental changes at West Point that have eroded it to the point where I question whether the institution should even remain open.

The recent coverage of 2LT Spenser Rapone — an avowed Communist and sworn enemy of the United States — dramatically highlighted this disturbing trend. Given my recent tenure on the West Point faculty and my direct interactions with Rapone, his “mentors,” and with the Academy’s leadership, I believe I can shed light on how someone like Rapone could possibly graduate.

See, I think most Americans expect West Point to be instructing and inculcating its students in ways that are congruent with the interests and values of the United States of America and its military.  It appears that the Powers-That-Be at West Point have abdicated that responsibility.

Are we seeing similar things happening in some quarters at BYU?  

Quote

First and foremost, standards at West Point are nonexistent. They exist on paper, but nowhere else. The senior administration at West Point inexplicably refuses to enforce West Point’s publicly touted high standards on cadets, and, having picked up on this, cadets refuse to enforce standards on each other. The Superintendent refuses to enforce admissions standards or the cadet Honor Code, the Dean refuses to enforce academic standards, and the Commandant refuses to enforce standards of conduct and discipline. The end result is a sort of malaise that pervades the entire institution. Nothing matters anymore. Cadets know this, and it has given rise to a level of cadet arrogance and entitlement the likes of which West Point has never seen in its history.

I think some of the recent agitations about the Honor Code - by both BYU students and supporting faculty - are intended to weaken or eliminate the morality standards at BYU, to the point the Honor Code "exist{s} on paper, but nowhere else."  

West Point is supposed to be a unique institution of higher learning.  It is supposes to impose on students and stringent set of behavioral standards, including some that do not exist in many other colleges and universities, the most obvious being a commitment to honorably serving in the United States Army and advancing its missions and objectives.  Nobody is forced to go there.  To the contrary, it's pretty difficult to get it.  It is pretty disconcerting, then, to see how far it has fallen from its mandates.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to BYU.  This may therefore mean that a bit of housecleaning is in order.

Quote

Every fall, the Superintendent addresses the staff and faculty and lies. He repeatedly states that “We are going to have winning sports teams without compromising our standards,” and everyone in Robinson Auditorium knows he is lying because we routinely admit athletes with ACT scores in the mid-teens across the board. I have personally taught cadets who are borderline illiterate and cannot read simple passages from the assigned textbooks. It is disheartening when the institution’s most senior leader openly lies to his own faculty — and they all know it. The cadet honor code has become a laughingstock. Cadets know they will not be separated for violating it, and thus they do so on a daily basis. Moreover, since they refuse to enforce standards on each other and police their own ranks, cadets will rarely find a cadet at an honor hearing despite overwhelming evidence that a violation has occurred.

West Point is supposed to have an Honor Code.  It is subverted when it is not enforced, as is West Point's mission when it allows such violations to go unchecked.

The same goes, I think, for BYU's Honor Code.

Quote

This in turn has caused the staff and faculty to give up even reporting honor incidents. Why would a staff or faculty member expend the massive amount of time and energy it takes to report an honor violation — including writing multiple sworn statements, giving interviews, and testifying at the honor hearing — when they know without a doubt the cadet will not be found (or, if found, the Superintendent will not separate the cadet)? To make matters worse, the senior leadership at West Point actively discourages staff and faculty from reporting honor violations. I was unfortunate enough to experience this first hand during my first tour on the faculty, when the Commandant of Cadets called my office phone and proceeded to berate me in the most vulgar and obscene language for over ten minutes because I had reported a cadet who lied to me and then asked if “we could just drop it.” Of course, I was duty bound to report the cadet’s violation, and I did. During the course of the berating I received from the Commandant, I never actually found out why he was so angry. It seemed that he was simply irritated that the institution was having to deal with the case, and that it was my fault it even existed. At the honor hearing the next day, I ended up being the one on trial as my character and reputation were dragged through the mud by the cadet and her civilian attorney while I sat on the witness stand without any assistance. In the end, of course, the cadet was not found (despite having at first admitted that she lied), and she eventually graduated.

It's hard to hold people to a high moral/behavioral standard, whether at West Point or at BYU.  

Quote

Even the curriculum itself has suffered. The plebe American History course has been revamped to focus completely on race and on the narrative that America is founded solely on a history of racial oppression. Cadets derisively call it the “I Hate America Course.” Simultaneously, the plebe International History course now focuses on gender to the exclusion of many other important themes.

On the other hand, an entire semester of military history was recently deleted from the curriculum (at West Point!).

Are we seeing similar revisions and navel-gazing exercises from faculty at BYU?  Are some faculty members presenting an "I Hate the Church"-style focus and approach to the history, doctrines, practices, etc. of the Church?  I'm genuinely curious.

Quote

It is not so much that West Point’s leadership defends his views (Prof. Hosein did, however); it is that West Point’s senior leaders are infected with apathy: they simply do not want to deal with any problem, regardless of how grievous a violation of standards and/or discipline it may be. They are so reticent to separate problematic cadets (undoubtedly due to the “developmental model” that now exists at USMA) that someone like Rapone can easily slip through the cracks. In other words, West Point’s leaders choose the easier wrong over the harder right.

Again, are we seeing something similar to this at BYU?  Perhaps even worse?  Are there faculty members at BYU facilitating disrespect and contempt for the doctrines and standards of the Church that is funding their salaries?  And if so, should that funding continue?

Quote

I could go on, but I fear that this letter would simply devolve into a screed, which is not my intention.

I will sum up by saying this: a culture of extreme permissiveness has invaded the Military Academy, and there seems to be no end to it. Moreover, this is not unintentional; it is a deliberate action that is being taken by the Academy’s senior leadership, though they refuse to acknowledge or explain it.

Hmm.  Is this what is happening at BYU?  Is this why Elder Holland had to make the public statements he did?

Quote

Conduct and behavior that would never be tolerated at a civilian university is common among cadets, and it is supported and defended by the Academy’s senior leaders in an apparent and misguided effort to attract more applicants and cater to what they see as the unique needs of this generation of cadets. Our beloved Military Academy has lost its way. It is a shadow of what it once was. It used to be a place where standards and discipline mattered, and where concepts like duty, honor, and country were real and they meant something. Those ideas have been replaced by extreme permissiveness, rampant dishonesty, and an inexplicable pursuit of mediocrity.

I guess I'm concerned that BYU is going down this same bath.  It is supposed to be unique and different.  There are hundreds of colleges and universities throughout the country and the world that do not have BYU's mandates, honor code, and association with the Church.  I hope that there are not elements seeking to corrode these distinctive attributes, as I feel I benefitted greatly from them. 

Quote

It breaks my heart to write this. It breaks my heart to know first-hand what West Point was versus what it has become. This is not a “Corps has” story; it is meant to highlight a deliberate and radical series of changes being undertaken at the highest levels of USMA’s leadership that are detrimental to the institution.

Criticizing these changes is not popular. I have already been labeled a “traitor” by some at the Academy due to my sworn statement’s appearance in the media circus surrounding Spenser Rapone. However, whenever I hear this, I am reminded of the Cadet Prayer:

“…suffer not our hatred of hypocrisy and pretense ever to diminish. Make us to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong, and never to be content with a half-truth when the whole can be won.

…that scorns to compromise with vice and injustice, and knows no fear when truth and right are in jeopardy.”

West Point was once special, and it can be again. Spenser Rapone never should have been admitted, much less graduate, but he was — and that mistake is directly attributable to the culture of permissiveness and apathy that now exists there.

I have great affection and respect for BYU.  I hope that there is not a similar "culture of permissiveness and apathy" going on there.  And if there is, I hope the Brethren take corrective action.

 

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

How many of the so called " agitators " would hesitate to lie in order to get a TR ? The end justifies the means. 

Wait, hold on.

You can lie in the interview?

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

And it is a free bus ride from BYU to UVU down University Parkway and back.

Several years ago there were more students transferring from BYU to UVU for the first time. My husband, the UVU prof, labeled BYU as a feeder school for UVU.  

[CA Steve]

Sounds like a wonderful place to work.

Your new bishop disagrees with you on GLBT issues and just like that you are out of a job and probably a career.

 

Sign me up.

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait, hold on.

You can lie in the interview?

I wonder how many over the top gung ho traditional style members fudge their academic credentials in applying to CES justifying the less than truth by students needing to hear from someone of their spiritual qualifications?

[smac97]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

There are other uses as well. Brigham Young's efforts to keep youth from falling into bad company and bad habits (the forming of the Mutual Improvement Association) was referred to as "retrenchment." 

In economics, it is a term used to denote "reduce and simplify," (as in one of your definitions, "a cutting down or off, as by the reduction of expenses"). Your other definition fits as well: "Fortification. an interior work that cuts off a part of a fortification from the rest, and to which a garrison may retreat."

The image fits the situation: BYU is retrenching to a better position of protection by reverting back to insisting on the fidelity of LDS staff. 

Okay.  I figured that is what you meant, but I wanted to confirm.  Thanks!

-Smac