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With all the current discussion on the early Genesis stories, I have to ask this question: What teachings of the church are nonnegotiable?  What do we absolutely have to believe in to be a Lattet-day Saint?

 

Edited by Rivers
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Is there going to be a test?  I think only what a bishop or mission president would say is required for baptism.  An 8-year old child doesn't necessarily need to know very much. Not all 8-year old children were raised in primary.  

We need to know just a little bit more before going to a temple for endowments.

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8 minutes ago, Rivers said:

With all the current discussion on the early Genesis stories, I have to ask this question: What teachings of the church are nonnegotiable?  What do we absolutely have to believe in to be a Lattet-day Saint?

 

You can believe whatever you want to be an official Latter-day Saint… but if your are talking about core doctrines:

- Christ is the great Jehovah and he died for our sins

- Apostasy and Restoration of the gospel 

- modern day revelation and prophets

Those are basics, but I’m sure there are a bunch of sun topics that are important to believe (ie grace, repentance, scripture is divinely inspired, tithing, etc)

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46 minutes ago, Rivers said:

With all the current discussion on the early Genesis stories, I have to ask this question: What teachings of the church are nonnegotiable?  What do we absolutely have to believe in to be a Lattet-day Saint?

 

There are none any more.  Not in the Church.

Maybe Christ and the atonement.  But even that is subject to tweaking and adjusting.

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48 minutes ago, Rivers said:

With all the current discussion on the early Genesis stories, I have to ask this question: What teachings of the church are nonnegotiable?  What do we absolutely have to believe in to be a Lattet-day Saint?

 

Tithing (from the Genesis story) and Moses 6: 47 - onward.

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4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There are none any more.  Not in the Church.

Maybe Christ and the atonement.  But even that is subject to tweaking and adjusting.

 "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to....  I say to all those who are disposed to set up stakes for the Almighty, You will come short of the glory of God. To become a joint heir of the heirship of the Son, one must put away all his false traditions.”

Joseph Smith would be proud. :D

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1 minute ago, rchorse said:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”

- Joseph Smith

I think it's interesting how Joseph Smith said the fundamental principles of our religion are what apostles and prophets said (their testimony) concerning Jesus Christ, beginning with his death. Joseph didn't mention in his statement anything about Jesus before he was born as a mortal.  Or if he did it would only rate as an appendage to our religion.  Which seems strange to me because I think the premortal life of Jesus and us is a very big part of our religion.  Who we are, and why we came here, and how our relationship with Jesus Christ determines our future.

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1 hour ago, Rivers said:

With all the current discussion on the early Genesis stories, I have to ask this question: What teachings of the church are nonnegotiable?  What do we absolutely have to believe in to be a Lattet-day Saint?

Go with the temple recommend interview questions. Those aren't a requirement to be a Latter-day Saint, but those really are the core doctrines that aren't negotiable. 

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22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 "I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to....  I say to all those who are disposed to set up stakes for the Almighty, You will come short of the glory of God. To become a joint heir of the heirship of the Son, one must put away all his false traditions.”

Joseph Smith would be proud. :D

I'd like to think so.
I paid attention when he taught that continuing revelation can't contradict previous revelation or eternal principle.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'd like to think so.
I paid attention when he taught that continuing revelation can't contradict previous revelation or eternal principle.

I think that some of the problem is that sometimes we assume that something was revelation when it was actually a well-reasoned opinion taught as if it was truth because it was believed to be true by the person who taught it.

 

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1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I think that some of the problem is that sometimes we assume that something was revelation when it was actually a well-reasoned opinion taught as if it was truth because it was believed to be true by the person who taught it.

That definitely happens.
But there are members that wouldn't bat an eye if baptism changed to sprinkling, we no longer wore garments, or tithing went to 8% or 12%.
 

Edited by JLHPROF
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17 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Somewhere I heard it suggested that the Church’s three proclamations (The Living Christ, The Family, and The Restoration) are the nonnegotiable creeds.

Why would those three proclamations be considered to be nonnegotiable but not the previous proclamations?

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

That definitely happens.

It probably happens a lot, though I think it is happening less in some areas, because our leaders have had to deal with the "lines in the sand" of previous leaders and they are more wary about creating those stumbling blocks for future generations.

But as our way of understanding the gospel changes from decade to decade, I think we (members and leaders today) still create plenty of our own sacred cows that will eventually have to be slain down the road.  I think this was true with JS and has continued to be true with every generation since.

How could it not be, if we really and truly believe that we learn line upon line, one ladder rung at a time, here a little and there a little?  There are none of us who have it all completely right or fully formed, no matter our calling in the church.

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But there are members that wouldn't bat an eye if baptism changed to sprinkling, we no longer wore garments, or tithing went to 8% or 12%.
 

Everyone has that place where they draw their personal lines in the sand. That place where they say "God will go this far, and no farther."  All that we really disagree on is where the line is.

  

 

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10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Everyone has that place where they draw their personal lines in the sand. That place where they say "God will go this far, and no farther."  All that we really disagree on is where the line is.

True.
I don't believe God changes the plan of salvation - doctrine, ordinances etc.  It was established in the beginning and all must be saved on the same principles.
Sometimes he gives more, sometimes he gives less, sometimes it's not on the earth.  But it doesn't change.

The only changes I believe he authorizes are administrative in the moment changes.
But you're right, what we really disagree on is where the line between the two lies.

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33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

True.
I don't believe God changes the plan of salvation - doctrine, ordinances etc.  It was established in the beginning and all must be saved on the same principles.
Sometimes he gives more, sometimes he gives less, sometimes it's not on the earth.  But it doesn't change.

The only changes I believe he authorizes are administrative in the moment changes.
But you're right, what we really disagree on is where the line between the two lies.

I'm not sure yet on where the line is.  I'm not sure exactly what is the plan of salvation and what is what I've been taught is the plan of salvation. 

Or, what is a part of the eternal gospel and what is just God using what He has to work with (namely, our earthly experiences and this earth's scriptural record) to teach us the eternal gospel.

Like how Ammon told King Lamoni that God was the Great Spirit, even though that wasn't exactly true and the Nephite concept of God was probably not the same as the Lamanite concept, but it was the bridge that was needed to get the king from where he was to where he needed to go.

I'm sure that God is "king Lamoni-ing" us in some ways, but I'm not sure exactly how or the extent.

Edited by bluebell
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43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

True.
I don't believe God changes the plan of salvation - doctrine, ordinances etc.  It was established in the beginning and all must be saved on the same principles.
Sometimes he gives more, sometimes he gives less, sometimes it's not on the earth.  But it doesn't change.

The only changes I believe he authorizes are administrative in the moment changes.
But you're right, what we really disagree on is where the line between the two lies.

I see 2 factors at play.  What we will believe vs what we will not believe, in a given moment. That's one factor.  The other factor is what is truth vs what is not truth.  With truth being all that is and was and will be.

So when people disagree there those 2 factors at play.  I will not agree that something is truth when I believe it is not. But is it truth while I am choosing to believe it is not?  Or is it not truth while I believe it is truth? 

Something is either truth or not truth, regardless of what I choose to believe in a given moment.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Everyone has that place where they draw their personal lines in the sand. That place where they say "God will go this far, and no farther."  All that we really disagree on is where the line is.

“Do not try to locate the line where God will not go. That is impossible. Instead….try to realize the truth.”

”What truth?”

”There is no line.”

 

And that is terrifying.

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4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“Do not try to locate the line where God will not go. That is impossible. Instead….try to realize the truth.”

”What truth?”

”There is no line.”

 

And that is terrifying.

I agree that it can very uncomfortable and disconcerting.  We humans like our boxes and our hedges.  We find comfort in certainty, and even believing that nothing is certain is a form of certainty that makes life, or a relationship with God, feel easier.

 Believing that some things are certain and some aren't, and it being up to you to discern between the two, is probably the most uncomfortable place to try to exist (in my opinion anyway).

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