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Resigning from the church


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26 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Right, I appreciate that, and do you subscribe to this pov, by your tone I'm not sure. You make the distinction between Mormons and Christians, from what I have seen here that isn't common to the members in general, is it your opinion that they are not?

I’m just being honest. Read what Calm just wrote! You see, what I said made her uncomfortable because it’s true. We Mormons work our way into heaven, that’s what sets us apart from Christians.
 

   Most Mormons probably don’t believe like I do and if the do, they won’t admit it because it will go against everything they’ve been indoctrinated with since birth. I believe my relationship with Christ is the most important relationship I can work on and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Mormon church. It has absolutely nothing to do with a bishop, stake president and definitely not a prophet. My relationship with Christ doesn’t rely on me wearing certain underwear, not cussing, not drinking coffee, reading scripture everyday. My relationship with Christ is personal and there’s no other relationship like the one I have with him because everyone has a unique relationship with Christ, no two are the same. One of the biggest traps in Mormonism is thinking that someone who isn’t Mormon doesn’t have the opportunity to live with God because they’re not Mormon. 
 

Mormonism is an outline to live a lifestyle that if lived correctly can bring you comfort, health and close family ties. Joseph Smith knew this, that’s why he structured Mormonism they way he did. But if lived incorrectly, so orthodox the believer is blinded, Mormonism can also be the undoing of everything that’s good in life. To many Mormons see Christ as the janitor that comes out of his little janitor closet when they make a mess of life, then he returns to his closet once he’s cleaned up the mess. 

To answer your question, to me Mormonism is a lifestyle, an outline to happiness. My relationship with Christ has nothing to do with Mormonism. 

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OC, Latter-day Saints define ourselves as Christians, but may say noncreedal, non-trinitarian, non-traditional, Restorationist Christian if they feel the need, but most don’t in my experience. 
 

Typically the same people who refuse us the name of Christian are the ones who call Catholics nonChristians.  
 

Some LDS have said nasty things about other Christians and plenty have nasty things to say about their fellow Saints, so I am not saying it is completely one sided.  And there is a mass of misformation floating around about other faiths, especially Catholic because most of early Saints were Protestants and brought many of their prejudices with them.

Edited by Calm
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25 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

I’m just being honest. Read what Calm just wrote! You see, what I said made her uncomfortable because it’s true. We Mormons work our way into heaven, that’s what sets us apart from Christians.
 

   Most Mormons probably don’t believe like I do and if the do, they won’t admit it because it will go against everything they’ve been indoctrinated with since birth. I believe my relationship with Christ is the most important relationship I can work on and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Mormon church. It has absolutely nothing to do with a bishop, stake president and definitely not a prophet. My relationship with Christ doesn’t rely on me wearing certain underwear, not cussing, not drinking coffee, reading scripture everyday. My relationship with Christ is personal and there’s no other relationship like the one I have with him because everyone has a unique relationship with Christ, no two are the same. One of the biggest traps in Mormonism is thinking that someone who isn’t Mormon doesn’t have the opportunity to live with God because they’re not Mormon. 
 

Mormonism is an outline to live a lifestyle that if lived correctly can bring you comfort, health and close family ties. Joseph Smith knew this, that’s why he structured Mormonism they way he did. But if lived incorrectly, so orthodox the believer is blinded, Mormonism can also be the undoing of everything that’s good in life. To many Mormons see Christ as the janitor that comes out of his little janitor closet when they make a mess of life, then he returns to his closet once he’s cleaned up the mess. 

To answer your question, to me Mormonism is a lifestyle, an outline to happiness. My relationship with Christ has nothing to do with Mormonism. 

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty and I agree with you as I said to Calm, or at least inferred that our relationship to Christ is individual, although we Orthodox function within the Church as members of the body of Christ and we are blessed by the Sacraments. However, if we are not right with Christ in our hearts, no amount of activity in our Church will speak for us, because He can see through falsehood.

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Latter-day Saints define ourselves as Christians, but may say noncreedal, non-trinitarian, non-traditional, Restorationist Christian if they feel the need, but most don’t in my experience. 
 

Typically the same people who refuse us the name of Christian are the ones who call Catholics nonChristians.  
 

Some LDS have said nasty things about other Christians, so I am not saying it is completely one sided. 

We define ourselves as THE ONLY CHRISTIANS. Remember, we believe the priesthood along with Christ true church was removed from earth shortly after The original prophets died. The earth was blanketed in darkness until Joseph Smith restored Christ true church. 
 

Let me ask you this. The poster that started this thread is a believing Orthodox Christian, is his Christianity, his belief in Christ enough to make sure he will live with God after he dies? Remember, he’s a Christian! 

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

We Mormons work our way into heaven, that’s what sets us apart from Christians.

This statement is the absolute opposite to traditional Christian belief. If it had been possible to work our way into heaven, then we wouldn't have needed Christ. The Jews of the OT had the Law given by God which they couldn't live up to and which only convicted them if their sin. Trying to work your way into heaven is setting Christ aside, and must be an incredible burden.

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57 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

We define ourselves as THE ONLY CHRISTIANS. Remember, we believe the priesthood along with Christ true church was removed from earth shortly after The original prophets died. The earth was blanketed in darkness until Joseph Smith restored Christ true church. 
 

Let me ask you this. The poster that started this thread is a believing Orthodox Christian, is his Christianity, his belief in Christ enough to make sure he will live with God after he dies? Remember, he’s a Christian! 

No we do not define ourselves as the only christians.  

 

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30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No we do not define ourselves as the only christians.  

 

“”My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects were right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, then I asked the person who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong, and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the person to who address me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, but those professors were all corrupt, that, they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they denied the power there of.

he again for bade me to join with any of them. “”
                            Joseph Smith 


 

There’s only a couple places in the scriptures or in the writings of Joseph Smith where God repeats himself. Why did God repeat himself when he told Joseph not ti join any of the “Christian” sects here on earth? 

 

Here’s a video of Elder Bernar explaining how one becomes a Christian. He says a person becomes a Christian by accepting ordinances and covenants of the LDS church. Is he wrong Bluebell? Go to the 1:40 mark.
 


 

 

 

Edited by Mike Drop
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16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can't believe that Mike is being sincere in these comments because they are so incredibly wrong.   I think he's trolling.

Also, do you realize non Mormon Christians believe they take upon the name of Christ fully once they accept he’s Lord and Savior? We on the other hand don’t fully take upon the name of Christ at baptism, for us it’s a process, depending on our works. 

Edited by Mike Drop
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I often would have these discussions with my evangelical friends and they would choose to believe the anti-mormons instead of a member of church standing right in front of them. It is through grace that we are saved. But, I do believe God does expect that once we covenant to follow him we at least try to follow his teachings and be good people. If that is 'working your way to heaven,' so be it. I've never understood the 'accept Christ' and then no matter what you do you are saved. I don't think the teachings of Christ lend themselves to that interpretation. 

We are often told how imperfect we are as Saints and that even the leadership is imperfect. We are taught the only perfect servant of God is Jesus Christ. We are taught God loves effort and we get credit for trying. Why? Because God knows we will fail and that is why through grace we are saved. 

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6 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects were right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, then I asked the person who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong, and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the person to who address me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, but those professors were all corrupt, that, they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they denied the power there of.

he again for bade me to join with any of them. “”
                            Joseph Smith 


 

There’s only a couple places in the scriptures or in the writings of Joseph Smith where God repeats himself. Why did God repeat himself when he told Joseph not ti join any of the “Christian” sects here on earth? 

 

Here’s a video of Elder Bernar explaining how one becomes a Christian. He says a person becomes a Christian by accepting ordinances and covenants of the LDS church. Is he wrong Bluebell? Go to the 1:40 mark.
 


 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mike Drop

So here Mike is quoting your founder Joseph Smith, is it a true quotation, and then the other gentleman. So, if they represent LDS founding doctrine, how can it be denied that "true Christianity" is only found in your church, and the rest of us are an abomination, according to Joseph Smith.

Can no one give me an answer? 

Edited by Orthodox Christian
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4 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Also, do you realize non Mormon Christians believe they take upon the name of Christ fully once they accept he’s Lord and Savior? We on the other hand don’t fully take upon the name of Christ at baptism, for us it’s a process, depending on our works. 

You may want to reconsider your username with often you rush back to the mike you just dropped.

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3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

the rest of us are an abomination,

It is not the faiths or the people that are an abomination but the creeds. Someone else may post, but I need to get back to sleep for a few more hours and will post an explanation of how creeds are viewed and why it means something very different than other faiths are abominations.

The video never states that I heard that the only Christians were those who were baptized in our church. We define Christians as followers of or believers in Christ. The language he is using may be confusing when he speaks of us taking on the name of Christ and being representatives, but he is using both in a limited way more about certain functions we are meant to fill, not to exclude others from being Christian. 

Yes, our doctrine is and most of us believe we have the fullness of the restored Gospel of Christ, this does not mean no other church has any. Think of it more like possessing all the individual musical instruments’ music parts to an orchestra’s performance of a symphony.  One group having a full collection does not get in the way of other groups having enough pieces to perform a beautiful work. Others may choose to write their own arrangements for missing pieces or even some that they have, altering the performance from the original, but it is easily recognized and enjoyed as a variation on the theme and has a right to be praised for the beauty it expresses. 
 

We also believe that revelation is ongoing so there will be more to learn in the future, more parts to add to the symphony. 

Edited by Calm
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Here is an essay designed to address the idea that Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian. Is there anything in it that you see as suggesting since we see ourselves as Christians, this means others can’t be as well? 
 

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/christians?lang=eng

 

This below is not the official website unlike the above, but a group of believers who attempt to help people understand our faith better, defend it from unwarranted criticisms and claims and to help those struggling because of doubt or disbelief in themselves or others.  I am a member of this group, btw. 
 

Here are many comments from early leaders making it clear we have always thought of ourselves as Christians, but also that we allow others the title as well. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_Christianity/Did_early_LDS_leaders_denounce_Christianity#Question:_Did_LDS_leaders_claim_that_Christians_were_no_longer_present_on_the_earth_after_the_apostasy.3F

Edited by Calm
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Copied from another discussion about “their creeds” on this board:

Quote

Joseph Smith opposed creeds, not because they are false teachings, ("It dont [sic] prove that a man is not a good man because he believes false doctrine"; Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center Monograph, 1980), 183-84), but because "creeds set up stakes, and say, "Hitherto thou shalt come, and no further'; which I cannot subscribe to." (TPJS, 327). Joseph Smith also said of the creeds that "all of them have some truth."

"The most prominent difference in sentiment between the Latter-day Saints and sectarians was, that the latter were all circumscribed by some particular creed, which deprived its members [of] the privilege of believing anything not contained therein, whereas the Latter-day Saints have no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time." DHC 5:215.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58206-all-their-creeds-were-an-abomination-in-his-sight/?do=findComment&comment=1209139411

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What made the Christian creeds an abomination to God was that their purpose was to define their doctrines in such a way that they cannot be added to or changed with additional understanding. The idea of continuing revelation was foreign to these creeds' authors. "Hitherto shalt thou come and no further."…

And it's not even what the creeds said, necessarily, that was abominable to God, it's that those creeds themselves did not allow any room for their errors to be corrected.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58206-all-their-creeds-were-an-abomination-in-his-sight/?do=findComment&comment=1209139530

 

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So here Mike is quoting your founder Joseph Smith, is it a true quotation, and then the other gentleman. So, if they represent LDS founding doctrine, how can it be denied that "true Christianity" is only found in your church, and the rest of us are an abomination, according to Joseph Smith.

Can no one give me an answer? 

First, I want to clarify something.  Mike Drop's original (false) claim was that "We define ourselves as THE ONLY CHRISTIANS."  That is a false statement.  The quote he posted was supposedly defending that claim (and it really doesn't do that, as I will explain below).  

And what constitutes a "true Christian" is for the Lord to judge (he knows our hearts).   But "true Christianity" can mean a lot of different things, and even that may not be limited to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Regarding the quote that Mike Drop posted, the response that was given to Joseph Smith was in answer to the question he asked, which was "which [church] should I join?".   It wasn't a question about whether the other faiths are "Christians", or if they have truth or not.  

Here is the quote again, with some important parts depicted in bold:

Quote

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”  (Joseph Smith—History 1:18–19)

As verse 18 of JSH shows, Joseph's "object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right". And he asked that very question, "which of all the sects was right".  In answer to this he was told "they were all wrong". This does not mean that everything about them is wrong, or that they were devoid of any truth at all, but rather that none of them was the "right" one for him to join (since that was his object in going to inquire of the Lord). He asked which one is "right" and was told that all of them are "wrong".

Furthermore, Joseph was told "all their creeds were an abomination". Again, that doesn't say anything about the various sects not having some truth. And also their "professors were all corrupt". "Corruption" of the "professors" implies perversion or contamination, impurities in the teaching. This does not mean that some of the original constituents of the teachings are not still there.

But we don't have to speculate on this, for Joseph Smith made it very clear that these other sects do contain truths, and not only that, but members of the church need to be gathering up all the true principles in the world, even those that exist in other faiths:

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Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons."  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.316) -  See also:  Joseph Smith Papers:  History, 1838–1856, volume E-1 [1 July 1843–30 April 1844]

And Brigham Young (the second president of the church) made it clear that Christians of many faiths will be among those who will be here during the reign of Christ upon the earth when his kingdom is established:

Quote

It may be asked what I mean by the kingdom of God. The Church of Jesus Christ has been established now for many years, and the kingdom of God has got to be established, even the kingdom which will circumscribe all the kingdoms of this world. It will yet give laws to every nation that exists upon the earth. This is the kingdom that Daniel, the prophet, saw should be set up in the last days….  If the Latter-day Saints think, when the kingdom of God is established on the earth, that all the inhabitants of the earth will join the Church called Latter-day Saints, they are egregiously mistaken. I presume there will be as many sects and parties then as now. Still, when the kingdom of God triumphs, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, to the glory of the Father. Even the Jews will do it then: but will the Jews and Gentiles be obliged to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No; not by any means. Jesus said to his disciples, "in my Father's house are many mansions; were it not so I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there ye may be also." There are mansions in sufficient numbers to suit the different classes of mankind, and a variety will always exist to all eternity, requiring a classification and an arrangement into societies and communities in the many mansions which are in the Lord's house, and this will be for ever and ever.  (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 275)

This is NOT an exclusive view of Christianity. 

Edited by InCognitus
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