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Eons ago…

My one roommate and I were having a horrible time due to our other 3 roommates fighting. We finally one day knelt together and prayed for God’s help as we were clueless and it was going to have to be him who solved it. We couldn’t afford to move out. Minutes after the prayer, the woman’s leader in our congregation (we call her the Relief Society President in case you didn’t know) showed up at my door for the first and last time in all my years at BYU (which was 8 years including being there for my husband’s grad work). We were able to discuss the issues with her. I don’t remember if she helped actually solve the issues though I do remember it got back to normal relatively soon after, but what really penetrated for me was that God was aware of us and our problems. That experience and a few others that seem impossible to explain by coincidence really help me get through the times when it seems like I am not getting any answers. I never feel alone or ignored even if it seems like God is silent. 

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Eons ago…

My one roommate and I were having a horrible time due to our other 3 roommates fighting. We finally one day knelt together and prayed for God’s help as we were clueless and it was going to have to be him who solved it. We couldn’t afford to move out. Minutes after the prayer, the woman’s leader in our congregation (we call her the Relief Society President in case you didn’t know) showed up at my door for the first and last time in all my years at BYU (which was 8 years including being there for my husband’s grad work). We were able to discuss the issues with her. I don’t remember if she helped actually solve the issues though I do remember it got back to normal relatively soon after, but what really penetrated for me was that God was aware of us and our problems. That experience and a few others that seem impossible to explain by coincidence really help me get through the times when it seems like I am not getting any answers. I never feel alone or ignored even if it seems like God is silent. 

In my case, I believe that the Lord kept me awake and really burdened my heart so that like you in your situation I had nowhere else to go. He didn't just leave me to stew over it on my own. Glory to God for all things.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe that God gave us fallible scriptures, fallible leaders (even the prophets), fallible parents even ;), so we all would be driven to seek the only real infallibility, the only true stability, God himself.  Nothing will satisfy us if we desire to be whole, to know perfection, to embrace and be embraced by the divine, but the actual experience of the Divine. 

You almost sound orthodox 😄

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8 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

For the last couple of nights I have lost sleep and peace of mind over a personal situation. The result of lost sleep though gave me the opportunity to be in prayer for this situation. This morning, after a night of wakefulness and intense prayer for God's mercy, I found that the situation that was causing so much angst was greatly improved and had changed through the most unexpected and extraordinary way. It is not fully resolved, but through this, the hope is that it can be.  I just wanted to share with anyone how thankful I am, and that prayer does change things, especially when we are praying within the will of God. 

Has anyone else experienced something like this? 

I live in small town Utah and we had our town well start to malfunction this last fall. We didn't get any water for a night. I remember how stressed I was and couldn't sleep, so I started reviewing hymns, scriptures etc. throughout the night. Luckily the main issues were fixed, though some fine tuning still needs to be done. Because I have OCD I still have a powerful nagging fear of suddenly not having any running water, but I have noticed in my worries my prayer life has been much more focused and frequent, as I think more about spiritual things each night. I now pray both on my morning walks and drive to work. I have noticed in alot of ways even though my worries haven't totally gone, I find myself less stressed about many things. I think thinking more about the Savior each night is something that has affected me for the better.

Edited by boblloyd91
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2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

I live in small town Utah and we had our town well start to malfunction this last fall. We didn't get any water for a night. I remember how stressed I was and couldn't sleep, so I started reviewing hymns, scriptures etc. throughout the night. Luckily the main issues were fixed, though some fine tuning still needs to be done. Because I have OCD I still have a powerful nagging fear of suddenly not having any running water, but I have noticed in my worries my prayer life has been much more focused and frequent, as I think more about spiritual things each night. I now pray both on my morning walks and drive to work. I have noticed in alot of ways even though my worries haven't totally gone, I find myself less stressed about many things. I think thinking more about the Savior each night is something that has affected me for the better.

I think to use these wakeful times profitably for prayer is beneficial to our spiritual and mental health. I often ask  Him, Lord can i just talk to you for a while, or, can I stay close to you a while, and then just think about Him, it doesn't have to be long winded or formal, but it helps to restore peace. 

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10 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe that God gave us fallible scriptures, fallible leaders (even the prophets), fallible parents even ;), so we all would be driven to seek the only real infallibility, the only true stability, God himself.  Nothing will satisfy us if we desire to be whole, to know perfection, to embrace and be embraced by the divine, but the actual experience of the Divine. 

Wow.  What an incredible perspective.  Thank you.  

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16 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Wow.  What an incredible perspective.  Thank you.  

I agree, and this enables us to find out on our own what is true without being told what to believe. Since we won't trust fallible people and thus think on our own. :)

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38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

People are fallible and we shouldn’t trust them but for some reason we assume individually we are less fallible? I get why we do this but is it rational?

I don't understand that. Maybe on an individual level, face to face, they can gain our trust. However, individuals can be as duplicitous as a group or corporation or those who speak on behalf of such. Have I misunderstood you?

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9 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I don't understand that. Maybe on an individual level, face to face, they can gain our trust. However, individuals can be as duplicitous as a group or corporation or those who speak on behalf of such. Have I misunderstood you?

By individual I meant ourselves. Many like to talk about fallibility of people (true) so they want to seek out the truth for themselves (turning to someone who is also a fallible person).

I understand why we trust our fallible selves over other fallible people. I am just not sure it is rational.

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

By individual I meant ourselves. Many like to talk about fallibility of people (true) so they want to seek out the truth for themselves (turning to someone who is also a fallible person).

I understand why we trust our fallible selves over other fallible people. I am just not sure it is rational.

I understand what you're saying, but we can't still get away from our own fallibility: Fallible me is making the fallible decision to put my trust in a theoretically fallible external source, which inevitably includes my fallible interpretations of that external source.

If there is a consistently winning formula, I have yet to pinpoint it.

But Calm's paradigm introduces the idea that maybe the uncertainty of fallibility is intentional, which implies the priority may be the trial-and-error progression of individuals, rather than uniformity of correct beliefs, at least at THIS stage in our progression.

And maybe it's not so much which of us has hit upon the most correct beliefs, but rather how we treat the least among us.  

Edited by Olmec Donald
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16 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

I understand what you're saying, but we can't still get away from our own infallibility: Fallible me is making the fallible decision to put my trust in a theoretically fallible external source, which inevitably includes my fallible interpretations of that external source.

If there is a consistently winning formula, I have yet to pinpoint it.

But Calm's paradigm introduces the idea that maybe the uncertainty of fallibility is intentional, which implies the priority may be the trial-and-error progression of individuals, rather than uniformity of correct beliefs, at least at THIS stage in our progression.

And maybe it's not so much which of us has hit upon the most correct beliefs, but rather how we treat the least among us.  

Wait?

Are you seriously suggesting that the gospel is not primarily about being right about everything?

DIE HERETIC!!!

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14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait?

Are you seriously suggesting that the gospel is not primarily about being right about everything?

DIE HERETIC!!!

In my own little amateur hellish, slithering, mutatious way, I'm trying to twist things to where it looks like God actually knows what he's doing.  Of course it may still be a comedy and the joke's on us.  

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

By individual I meant ourselves. Many like to talk about fallibility of people (true) so they want to seek out the truth for themselves (turning to someone who is also a fallible person).

I understand why we trust our fallible selves over other fallible people. I am just not sure it is rational.

Sorry I misread your previous reply and I thought I had deleted this response...obviously not.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

People are fallible and we shouldn’t trust them but for some reason we assume individually we are less fallible? I get why we do this but is it rational?

I don't assume I am infallible, or less fallible,  than anyone else is. Wouldn't that be vain and narcissistic? I am only too aware of my faults to make that assumption. 

Edited by Orthodox Christian
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29 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I don't assume I am infallible, or less fallible,  than anyone else is. Wouldn't that be vain and narcissistic? I am only too aware of my faults to make that assumption. 

That wasn’t directed at you specifically.

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10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

By individual I meant ourselves. Many like to talk about fallibility of people (true) so they want to seek out the truth for themselves (turning to someone who is also a fallible person).

I understand why we trust our fallible selves over other fallible people. I am just not sure it is rational.

It is not, but doing so allows us to function as constant second guessing of ourselves will grind any progress to a painful halt. 

Knowing I am very fallible is one reason I like to hear others’ viewpoints, as a reality check on my own. 


Also simply because we recognize others as fallible doesn’t mean we can’t therefore trust them.  It is not a black and white, ‘all men are fallible, therefore I trust only God’ approach for me. I see no contradiction in trusting others while realizing at times my expectations based on that trust will be disappointed and I will be hurt, but that just means I need to adapt and work within the new awareness of our relationship. 

There was a moment in my life when I learned two of my siblings had made choices I would never ever make or expect them to make given our upbringing (I didn’t understand how they could interpret their choices in such a way so that was something they thought they needed most) and weirdly while I hurt for them having to deal the consequences of their choices, what hit me hardest was that I was actually quite completely alone in this world…there was absolutely no one who saw the world in the same way I did, not even those raised in the same environment as me, no one I could talk to who would immediately understand what I was trying to say in anything, there would always be some gap in connection…which means there was no one that would see me as I truly was and therefore could be fully with me in any given moment.  For me knowing I would never be understood meant I would always be alone.  It was a very dark moment (dark as in the dark of space, empty…not evil).  I don’t know how long it lasted, not long.  I had been walking downstairs when it overcame me and had sat down on a stair and it was not a comfortable lounging spot, but I never got to the point of noticing physical discomfort so it must have been quite short. I  didn’t think for that time or so it seemed as my usual multiple trains of thought were all so massively derailed.  It was a quite an blow to my self perception, security, my view of how the world worked and my place in it, which before was I just needed to keep working on being open and letting others experience me and I them and we would somehow connect better and more meaningfully.  When I realized in the core of my being that was never actually going to happen, I don’t think I knew what I was meant to be, so everything just felt like it stopped.

So hearing God telling me he was there, he knew me in the way I needed to be known, that I was not alone, that when I spoke to him he understood what I meant rather than what I said, even if I didn’t…that got the world moving again for me.

I still don’t understand how such a small shift of perception threw me so, it is not like I didn’t intellectually know the obstacles to communication since forever.  But I guess there was still a childlike faith in my family that I was one with them.  And that had been a safety net for me, a place I could return to if I was badly hurt.  Only it wasn’t.

What is different now in my relationship with God as opposed to the rest of my relationships is I don’t need to maintain any ‘safety parameters’ so to speak when I trust him, I am all in knowing my expectations of being cared for won’t need to be adjusted though my expectations of how God is going to take care for me change.  Those moments of shock that come when I realize someone doesn’t know me in the way I thought they did or I didn’t know them as well as I trusted…those won’t happen with God.  I can still retreat to him when hurt and know he will be there.  So I trust others still, but must be responsible for my own safety in those relationships.  I got to be an adult, got to be aware, got to work to understand and be understood constantly.

 I don’t have to work with God. I can just be. That is my peace.

——

So I don’t want people to take my paradigm and think it implies we are not to meant to trust others and only rely on ourselves and God. Not saying that at all. Just saying we need to be adults about it and not remain in a childish, unthinking relationship. Though I recognize when it comes to trusting others, sometimes others’ behaviour will be so antithetical to what we expect from them because of trust, it will destroy that quality of trust. (For some it is impossible to trust one’s spouse actually loves one if they commit adultery and the marriage ends, others adjust and accept that there is love, but also weakness and are able to trust in a modified way).  I think in those cases not trusting is a necessary survival mechanism. 

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not, but doing so allows us to function as constant second guessing of ourselves will grind any progress to a painful halt. 

Knowing I am very fallible is one reason I like to hear others’ viewpoints, as a reality check on my own. 


Also simply because we recognize others as fallible doesn’t mean we can’t therefore trust them.  It is not a black and white, ‘all men are fallible, therefore I trust only God’ approach for me. I see no contradiction in trusting others while realizing at times my expectations based on that trust will be disappointed and I will be hurt, but that just means I need to adapt and work within the new awareness of our relationship. 

There was a moment in my life when I learned two of my siblings had made choices I would never ever make or expect them to make given our upbringing (I didn’t understand how they could interpret their choices in such a way so that was something they thought they needed most) and weirdly while I hurt for them having to deal the consequences of their choices, what hit me hardest was that I was actually quite completely alone in this world…there was absolutely no one who saw the world in the same way I did, not even those raised in the same environment as me, no one I could talk to who would immediately understand what I was trying to say in anything, there would always be some gap in connection…which means there was no one that would see me as I truly was and therefore could be fully with me in any given moment.  For me knowing I would never be understood meant I would always be alone.  It was a very dark moment (dark as in the dark of space, empty…not evil).  I don’t know how long it lasted, not long.  I had been walking downstairs when it overcame me and had sat down on a stair and it was not a comfortable lounging spot, but I never got to the point of noticing physical discomfort so it must have been quite short. I  didn’t think for that time or so it seemed as my usual multiple trains of thought were all so massively derailed.  It was a quite an blow to my self perception, security, my view of how the world worked and my place in it, which before was I just needed to keep working on being open and letting others experience me and I them and we would somehow connect better and more meaningfully.  When I realized in the core of my being that was never actually going to happen, I don’t think I knew what I was meant to be, so everything just felt like it stopped.

So hearing God telling me he was there, he knew me in the way I needed to be known, that I was not alone, that when I spoke to him he understood what I meant rather than what I said, even if I didn’t…that got the world moving again for me.

I still don’t understand how such a small shift of perception threw me so, it is not like I didn’t intellectually know the obstacles to communication since forever.  But I guess there was still a childlike faith in my family that I was one with them.  And that had been a safety net for me, a place I could return to if I was badly hurt.  Only it wasn’t.

What is different now in my relationship with God as opposed to the rest of my relationships is I don’t need to maintain any ‘safety parameters’ so to speak when I trust him, I am all in knowing my expectations of being cared for won’t need to be adjusted though my expectations of how God is going to take care for me change.  Those moments of shock that come when I realize someone doesn’t know me in the way I thought they did or I didn’t know them as well as I trusted…those won’t happen with God.  I can still retreat to him when hurt and know he will be there.  So I trust others still, but must be responsible for my own safety in those relationships.  I got to be an adult, got to be aware, got to work to understand and be understood constantly.

 I don’t have to work with God. I can just be. That is my peace.

——

So I don’t want people to take my paradigm and think it implies we are not to meant to trust others and only rely on ourselves and God. Not saying that at all. Just saying we need to be adults about it and not remain in a childish, unthinking relationship. Though I recognize when it comes to trusting others, sometimes others’ behaviour will be so antithetical to what we expect from them because of trust, it will destroy that quality of trust. (For some it is impossible to trust one’s spouse actually loves one if they commit adultery and the marriage ends, others adjust and accept that there is love, but also weakness and are able to trust in a modified way).  I think in those cases not trusting is a necessary survival mechanism. 

Be still and know that I am God. Best advice ever! Great that you can just "be" with Him, that's how He wants it. 

Edited by Orthodox Christian
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My other favorite scripture is from our unique book, Doctrine and Covenants sec 84:88.  It is speaking on priesthood and missionary work, but I believe it applies to anytime we are out and about doing the work of God as he has instructed us to do.

Quote

88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit will be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.

 

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17 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not, but doing so allows us to function as constant second guessing of ourselves will grind any progress to a painful halt. 

Knowing I am very fallible is one reason I like to hear others’ viewpoints, as a reality check on my own. 


Also simply because we recognize others as fallible doesn’t mean we can’t therefore trust them.  It is not a black and white, ‘all men are fallible, therefore I trust only God’ approach for me. I see no contradiction in trusting others while realizing at times my expectations based on that trust will be disappointed and I will be hurt, but that just means I need to adapt and work within the new awareness of our relationship. 

There was a moment in my life when I learned two of my siblings had made choices I would never ever make or expect them to make given our upbringing (I didn’t understand how they could interpret their choices in such a way so that was something they thought they needed most) and weirdly while I hurt for them having to deal the consequences of their choices, what hit me hardest was that I was actually quite completely alone in this world…there was absolutely no one who saw the world in the same way I did, not even those raised in the same environment as me, no one I could talk to who would immediately understand what I was trying to say in anything, there would always be some gap in connection…which means there was no one that would see me as I truly was and therefore could be fully with me in any given moment.  For me knowing I would never be understood meant I would always be alone.  It was a very dark moment (dark as in the dark of space, empty…not evil).  I don’t know how long it lasted, not long.  I had been walking downstairs when it overcame me and had sat down on a stair and it was not a comfortable lounging spot, but I never got to the point of noticing physical discomfort so it must have been quite short. I  didn’t think for that time or so it seemed as my usual multiple trains of thought were all so massively derailed.  It was a quite an blow to my self perception, security, my view of how the world worked and my place in it, which before was I just needed to keep working on being open and letting others experience me and I them and we would somehow connect better and more meaningfully.  When I realized in the core of my being that was never actually going to happen, I don’t think I knew what I was meant to be, so everything just felt like it stopped.

So hearing God telling me he was there, he knew me in the way I needed to be known, that I was not alone, that when I spoke to him he understood what I meant rather than what I said, even if I didn’t…that got the world moving again for me.

I still don’t understand how such a small shift of perception threw me so, it is not like I didn’t intellectually know the obstacles to communication since forever.  But I guess there was still a childlike faith in my family that I was one with them.  And that had been a safety net for me, a place I could return to if I was badly hurt.  Only it wasn’t.

What is different now in my relationship with God as opposed to the rest of my relationships is I don’t need to maintain any ‘safety parameters’ so to speak when I trust him, I am all in knowing my expectations of being cared for won’t need to be adjusted though my expectations of how God is going to take care for me change.  Those moments of shock that come when I realize someone doesn’t know me in the way I thought they did or I didn’t know them as well as I trusted…those won’t happen with God.  I can still retreat to him when hurt and know he will be there.  So I trust others still, but must be responsible for my own safety in those relationships.  I got to be an adult, got to be aware, got to work to understand and be understood constantly.

 I don’t have to work with God. I can just be. That is my peace.

——

So I don’t want people to take my paradigm and think it implies we are not to meant to trust others and only rely on ourselves and God. Not saying that at all. Just saying we need to be adults about it and not remain in a childish, unthinking relationship. Though I recognize when it comes to trusting others, sometimes others’ behaviour will be so antithetical to what we expect from them because of trust, it will destroy that quality of trust. (For some it is impossible to trust one’s spouse actually loves one if they commit adultery and the marriage ends, others adjust and accept that there is love, but also weakness and are able to trust in a modified way).  I think in those cases not trusting is a necessary survival mechanism. 

That's a sweet stair moment Calm. ♥️ A balm to your soul. 

 

 

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