Popular Post pogi Posted January 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2022 34 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I agree. This is what really turned me off of leadership while I was on my mission. It was all about the numbers. Number of hours tracking, number of discussions, number of baptisms. My MP was so focused on quantifiable results that the ends started to justify the means. We were taught slick sales tactics in zone conference, and those whole had the highest numbers would get a "master builder" medal (more like a large coin), which was delivered in zone conference. When it all comes down numbers, then it is easy to game the system, and many missionaries did just that. The ones where good at it got promoted. Yep, it got so bad in our mission that my President started making mission covenants. He had us covenant to wake up an hour earlier every day to study the scriptures, hand out more BoMs etc. etc., in exchange for these things we would receive ____ number of baptisms for the month. When our numbers would fall short of the goal, we were all chastised for not living up to our end of the covenant. I am glad those days are gone and the church has put an end to this bogus practice. I am shocked that baptismal goals are still a thing though. 7 Link to comment
sunstoned Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 27 minutes ago, pogi said: Yep, it got so bad in our mission that my President started making mission covenants. He had us covenant to wake up an hour earlier every day to study the scriptures, hand out more BoMs etc. etc., in exchange for these things we would receive ____ number of baptisms for the month. When our numbers would fall short of the goal, we were all chastised for not living up to our end of the covenant. I am glad those days are gone and the church has put an end to this bogus practice. I am shocked that baptismal goals are still a thing though. I felt like I was part of a sales force instead of a missionary. I know that both of my Mission Presidents were businessmen with a sales focus. I am wondering what the percentage of Mission Presidents are with this type of background. 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 51 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I felt like I was part of a sales force instead of a missionary. I know that both of my Mission Presidents were businessmen with a sales focus. I am wondering what the percentage of Mission Presidents are with this type of background. Probably quite a few since those are the jobs that often make people wealthy, and mission presidents need to be in a financial situation where they can stop working for three years, sometimes with kids still at home. 2 Link to comment
rongo Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Probably quite a few since those are the jobs that often make people wealthy, and mission presidents need to be in a financial situation where they can stop working for three years, sometimes with kids still at home. They actually don't. They are paid a salary, and all of their expenses on the mission are reimbursed. My parents have been the office couple in two different foreign missions, and they know and had access to how the finances work. That mission presidents are almost always chosen from among the wealthy doesn't mean that they have to already be wealthy to serve as mission presidents. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, rongo said: They actually don't. They are paid a salary, and all of their expenses on the mission are reimbursed. My parents have been the office couple in two different foreign missions, and they know and had access to how the finances work. That mission presidents are almost always chosen from among the wealthy doesn't mean that they have to already be wealthy to serve as mission presidents. It is not just about expenses for three years. It is more IMO about the impact on their career if they are not of retirement age. They need to have enough wealth so taking a three year sabbatical from work doesn’t impact them. The amount would vary depending on the career, since for some careers a three year break might as well be retirement. Some might have no job to come back to and be viewed as out of date and therefore not worth hiring. A doctor could lose their patients and have to start from scratch to reestablish their practice. Same with a lawyer. They need to not only have the type of job that is relatively easy to step back into (say a partnership in a clinic/firm/business or owner), but to have enough funds to cover the reentry time. The Church doesn’t generally support their family once they are no longer MP after all. Edited January 20, 2022 by Calm 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 23 minutes ago, rongo said: They actually don't. They are paid a salary, and all of their expenses on the mission are reimbursed. My parents have been the office couple in two different foreign missions, and they know and had access to how the finances work. That mission presidents are almost always chosen from among the wealthy doesn't mean that they have to already be wealthy to serve as mission presidents. Interesting to know, thanks for the info. I was mostly referring to not having any debt, no mortgage left back home, (or the ability to continue to pay debt while they are out), financially stable enough to support children that are not on the mission but might not be completely self sufficient yet (college, weddings, missions). Have a job where they can go back and still earn a living after being gone for three years (self-employed for example), or otherwise support themselves after the mission is over, if they aren't retired. That kind of stuff. I made sure in my post that I didn't say that they had to be wealthy because I know that's not the case. I think that people with a modest living can do it. But whoever it is they need to be in specific financial situations that allow them to leave their work for three years, survive on the stipend the church provides, and then continue on with their lives still being able to support themselves after their service is done. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, sunstoned said: I felt like I was part of a sales force instead of a missionary. I know that both of my Mission Presidents were businessmen with a sales focus. I am wondering what the percentage of Mission Presidents are with this type of background. Both of my son's. One of mine. I didn't know the career of the other. One MP I know was an electrical engineering university professor. Another was in CES. Edited January 20, 2022 by Rain 1 Link to comment
rongo Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Calm said: It is not just about expenses for three years. It is more IMO about the impact on their career if they are not of retirement age. They need to have enough wealth so taking a three year sabbatical from work doesn’t impact them. The amount would vary depending on the career, since for some careers a three year break might as well be retirement. Some might have no job to come back to and be viewed as out of date and therefore not worth hiring. A doctor could lose their patients and have to start from scratch to reestablish their practice. Same with a lawyer. They need to not only have the type of job that is relatively easy to step back into (say a partnership in a clinic/firm/business or owner), but to have enough funds to cover the reentry time. The amount of the salary/stipend varies based on situation; it isn't one-size-fits-all. Interestingly, many men/couples who are well-placed from an "able to leave for three years and come back" standpoint are never considered, or even on the radar of being considered, because men with wealth and networking connections are usually chosen. Much of the salary during the three years could be saved for re-entry --- expenses are covered during the three years. 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I was mostly referring to not having any debt, no mortgage left back home, (or the ability to continue to pay debt while they are out), financially stable enough to support children that are not on the mission but might not be completely self sufficient yet (college, weddings, missions). Have a job where they can go back and still earn a living after being gone for three years (self-employed for example), or otherwise support themselves after the mission is over, if they aren't retired. That kind of stuff. I made sure in my post that I didn't say that they had to be wealthy because I know that's not the case. I think that people with a modest living can do it. But whoever it is they need to be in specific financial situations that allow them to leave their work for three years, survive on the stipend the church provides, and then continue on with their lives still being able to support themselves after their service is done. We are in our third consecutive "homesitting" stint for couples on missions. We had a home teacher growing up who housesat for a mission president in Peru. I think mortgages are usually covered either by children/grandchildren housesitting, or having trusted housesitters make the mortgage payment in their absence. We may be headed for a fourth stint (yuck to renting, but with the market as it is, it's really nice to pay far under the prevailing market prices for rent). I think many families in modest situations are very capable of doing it from a situation standpoint, but the reality is that the preference is obviously for wealthy men in certain fields --- often with networking "degrees of separation" from Church leadership. This is to be expected, to a great extent. As with general authority and auxiliary presidency callings, you often think about people you know and don't beat the bushes for people you don't. 1 Link to comment
sunstoned Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 hours ago, rongo said: They actually don't. They are paid a salary, and all of their expenses on the mission are reimbursed. My parents have been the office couple in two different foreign missions, and they know and had access to how the finances work. That mission presidents are almost always chosen from among the wealthy doesn't mean that they have to already be wealthy to serve as mission presidents. I have to friends who were mission presidents. Both worked for the church. One in finance and one in IT. They are professionals with middle class incomes. Both were called as mission presidents while in their early 50s. Once the completed their three years, they came back and resumed their jobs with the church. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Orthodox Christian Posted January 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 21, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 9:35 PM, JustAnAustralian said: Scrupulosity is a real issue for some people that I see being written about more and more. I'll leave it to more experienced people to go into depth about it. Scrupulosity can be very destructive. During Great Lent which is the longest and most holy fast in Orthodoxy during which time we essentially go vegan, some people will check every ingredient in what they buy to make sure there is no added oil, butter or eggs etc. This makes the fast a kind of god in itself, and for some it becomes too much. For others, they stick rigidly to it and at that becomes a source of pride, and they may be convinced that they have achieved great things by their own efforts. Yes scrupulosity is an insidious and unnecessary fault or misunderstanding of what God requires of us. 5 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 One of my Mission Presidents was in aviation and pretty wealthy. Luckily not a sales guy. The second was in CES for most of his life. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 5:23 PM, pogi said: Yep, it got so bad in our mission that my President started making mission covenants. He had us covenant to wake up an hour earlier every day to study the scriptures, hand out more BoMs etc. etc., in exchange for these things we would receive ____ number of baptisms for the month. When our numbers would fall short of the goal, we were all chastised for not living up to our end of the covenant. I am glad those days are gone and the church has put an end to this bogus practice. I am shocked that baptismal goals are still a thing though. I saw this happen on a lower level in my mission with companionships making covenants. I couldn’t take it seriously. God sets the terms of his covenants. There are genuine cases of private covenants but mass setting up covenants because “God wants us to baptize more” is probably priestcraft. I had a companion into that once. He was vocal about my faithlessness being the cause of us not baptizing more people. I was of the private opinion that is was more likely because he was one of the most stupid people I have ever met in my life and he drove people away with his inane comments and inappropriate questions. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle and….nah, who am I kidding? I was right. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post rchorse Posted January 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) In my mission, they made it a rule that you had to baptize someone every week. If you didn't do it, you were breaking the rules and needed to repent. As someone who struggles with scrupulosity, this was devastating for me and led to severe depression for the first time in my life. At 19/20, I hadn't had experience with bad church leadership yet, and I thought I was the one in the wrong. It actually turned out to be a good thing for my spiritual development, though, as I was forced to reconcile my "disobedience" with God. The revelation that I clearly received was that all I needed to worry about was doing my best, and that if I did that, God was pleased with me. It didn't matter what others thought. I still struggle with feeling like I'm good enough or doing enough, but I've had enough experience now that I'm usually able to remind myself that no one is perfect, and I'm doing ok. But, yeah, I'm not sure if that idiotic "rule" came from the mission president or the area presidency. Either way, it was ridiculously stupid and did not accomplish anything worthwhile. Edit: We also had a bunch of zone leaders and stuff who would try to get us to "sacrifice" something important to us so that we could earn additional blessings (baptisms). A lot of missionaries started giving up food, sleep, etc. I was at least smart enough to see that going without water while walking 15 plus miles in 115 degree heat was not a sacrifice that would bring blessings. It was just stupid. Edited January 21, 2022 by rchorse 7 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 What I find is really shocking about this is that the baptisms themselves were of lesser importance to the numbers. How could this be, and how many converts would remain? To become Orthodox it takes about 2 years, maybe longer depending on the individual, apparently it used to take a lot longer. Numbers have never been an issue. Did low baptism numbers reflect badly on the mission leaders? Link to comment
theplains Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 4:17 PM, bluebell said: What I hear Moroni saying is that if we have faith in Christ (come unto Him) and if we repent of our sins and desire to live His commandments (deny ourselves of all ungodliness) then God's grace is active in our lives. "Grace is active" means something else than "grace is sufficient." Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, theplains said: "Grace is active" means something else than "grace is sufficient." No it doesn't. Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: What I find is really shocking about this is that the baptisms themselves were of lesser importance to the numbers. How could this be, and how many converts would remain? To become Orthodox it takes about 2 years, maybe longer depending on the individual, apparently it used to take a lot longer. Numbers have never been an issue. Did low baptism numbers reflect badly on the mission leaders? Human weakness. It's easy to lose sight of what's really important, and often, in all parts of life, people start with a worthy goal and then end up trying to achieve it in harmful ways. 3 Link to comment
theplains Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: No it doesn't. "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God." I don't know you but I would say you are like me - we cannot admit to loving God with all our might, mind, and strength or admit to denying ourselves of all ungodliness. Does this mean grace is not yet active in our lives? Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, theplains said: "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God." I don't know you but I would say you are like me - we cannot admit to loving God with all our might, mind, and strength or admit to denying ourselves of all ungodliness. Does this mean grace is not yet active in our lives? I can admit to having faith in Christ, to repenting when I mess up, and to having a sincere desire to follow Him, though I mess up all the time. So that means that His grace is sufficient for me. His grace is active in my life. 2 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 3 hours ago, bluebell said: It's easy to lose sight of what's really important, and often, in all parts of life, people start with a worthy goal and then end up trying to achieve it in harmful ways. So does the end justify the means? Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 14 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: So does the end justify the means? Sometimes but I would say very rarely. But in this case, the ends weren't even what they were going for. No one wants to baptize someone and have them fall away. That is never any sincere missionary's goal. Playing for numbers creates the exact situation that no missionary wants. Pragmatically, everyone loses. 1 Link to comment
theplains Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/21/2022 at 4:14 PM, bluebell said: I can admit to having faith in Christ, to repenting when I mess up, and to having a sincere desire to follow Him, though I mess up all the time. So that means that His grace is sufficient for me. His grace is active in my life. I would agree with you that grace is active in your life. But Moroni 10:32 mentions very specific conditions that must be satisfied by you before His grace is sufficient for you. Link to comment
Bob Crockett Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 4:51 PM, sunstoned said: I felt like I was part of a sales force instead of a missionary. I know that both of my Mission Presidents were businessmen with a sales focus. I am wondering what the percentage of Mission Presidents are with this type of background. The first president was a union leader and not a sales person. 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/19/2022 at 2:55 PM, sunstoned said: I agree. This is what really turned me off of leadership while I was on my mission. It was all about the numbers. Number of hours tracking, number of discussions, number of baptisms. My MP was so focused on quantifiable results that the ends started to justify the means. We were taught slick sales tactics in zone conference, and those whole had the highest numbers would get a "master builder" medal (more like a large coin), which was delivered in zone conference. When it all comes down numbers, then it is easy to game the system, and many missionaries did just that. The ones where good at it got promoted. My mission was set up very similar. As the zone leader, I felt like we should be concentrating more on helping members introducing the gospel to their friends. I asked my mission president if we could concentrate more on that rather than the statistics. He said no. One of the statistics was to place 5 BoM's a week. So that week I placed 50. During our next meeting, I told him if he only wanted statistics, I could give him the best statistics in the mission. If he wanted baptisms, he should let me try a different approach. Two months later, the entire mission adapted the program that I started because the results were in fact more baptisms. 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 2 hours ago, theplains said: I would agree with you that grace is active in your life. But Moroni 10:32 mentions very specific conditions that must be satisfied by you before His grace is sufficient for you. Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. Moroni 10:32 Sounds a lot like: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 1 Link to comment
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