Is it just me?

[The Nehor]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

 Even if such polling existed, I doubt it would be any more accurate than polling faithful members today.

It's very simple - the more zealously converted a member is the more likely they are to say Conference was amazing, a spiritual feast, pure revelation.
The less zealous member is more likely to identify any issues or areas lacking.

I do believe it's objectively evident that the content of conference talks have been watered down, but in the end how much you get out of conference still says more about the listener than the speaker.

I was not so much looking for those who in the 70s thought that conference was dull. I was more looking for people longing for the good old days when conference was better. I found a little bit in the 60s that seemed to suggest that it seemed like conference was going from a smaller family business to going international and that something was lost/changed but it wasn’t much to go on.

I find that looking back the conference talks that evoked the most passion in me are all decades back but I think that has to do more with being more passionate. How useful or corrective the various conferences have been…..I am not sure how to judge.

[T-Shirt]

11 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 I have also talked to thousands of inactive and former members who have told be that when they left no one made any effort to find out why.  I have listened to hundreds of sons and daughter tear up when they tell me that their parents refuse to listen to them explain why they left the Church. 

I call BS on this......but that's just my opinion.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Was the world better when you were young or because you were young?

I was omniscient when I was 20.

Then I got married, and I guess senility set in immediately.  I was suddenly wrong on everything.

 

[SteveO]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

You know it's hard not to be snarky when I told you I was expressing my opinion but I do have a couple of questions?

Who is Elder Bednar?  A white North American male of upper middle class back ground or something else?  What about the other 14?  All the same except one happened to be born in Germany but live the same privileged lifestyle his whole adult life.  Elder Soares had the same privileged lifestyle and has lived in the United States so long that he practically is North American.  Presidents of the quorum of the seventy, the same story.  Also I wasn't talking about culture.  Just where the money comes from and upbringing of the vast majority of leaders from Bishop on up.

You are a perfect example of who conference appeals too.  That is not criticism but rather a simple statement.

Insufferable

[SteveO]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When Elder Bednar was here to conduct a regional priesthood leadership training meeting seven or eight years ago, he told us that the Lord was guiding the Church to be truly global in its reach by stripping away all non-essential culture and leaving only the doctrines. Americans, he told us, would be the ones most troubled by these improvements. Then he gave us a measure: if something doesn't work in Zimbabwe, the Church is no longer going to do it. Simply put, you're off the mark here.

Bold is absolutely fascinating…I’ve said for years the church has a bright future in Africa.  
 

Also…you’re in Zimbabwe?  
 

Edit to ask: any chance those remarks are recorded or a text available somewhere?  Would be interesting to read.

Edited January 14, 2022 by SteveO

[kimpearson]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Because a trauma filled childhood is so easily forgotten and put aside.

Nice deflection from my point.  Point to childhood to try to deny the lived experience as an adult of money, privilege, and race.  A number of the brethren had hard childhoods.  I am in no way saying their childhood experiences had no impact.  I am saying their adult lived lives are clear examples of where the Church get most of its donations from and what type of men fill the majority of its leadership positions.  Do you disagree with that?

[kimpearson]

10 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

I'm pretty sure the Brit, Kiwi, Brazilian, and Portuguese presidents (i.e. the majority) of the presidents of seventy would be quite put off by you saying they're practically north american.

I am pretty sure each of those individuals are white, male and upper middle class.  3 out of 4 and you want to argue about 1.  OK I agree they aren't North American.  I would make a bet that each of them patterned their lives on the North American general authorities they have been exposed to while church members.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Nice deflection from my point.  Point to childhood to try to deny the lived experience as an adult of money, privilege, and race.  A number of the brethren had hard childhoods.  I am in no way saying their childhood experiences had no impact.  I am saying their adult lived lives are clear examples of where the Church get most of its donations from and what type of men fill the majority of its leadership positions.  Do you disagree with that?

So what sort of leaders should the Church be calling?
Just curious.

Quote

I am pretty sure each of those individuals are white, male and upper middle class.  3 out of 4 and you want to argue about 1.  OK I agree they aren't North American.  I would make a bet that each of them patterned their lives on the North American general authorities they have been exposed to while church members.

Oh I see.  People who aren't white, male, or middle class.
Sounds like racism, sexism, and class warfare to me.

Edited January 14, 2022 by JLHPROF

[kimpearson]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Does General Conference appeal to me? Yes!

Am I one of your imagined 'core supporters'? Nope. I don't even live in the Northern Hemisphere, let alone North America. But don't let that stop you making up more stories that fit your narrative. 

Please reread my post then tell me if you don't meet the description of the type of member who enjoys conference.  I made no mention of core supporters.  

 

15 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Yes in a very real way, this Church has changed from the Church of 40 or 50 years ago.  The core doctrines have remained but any kind of real discussion about those doctrines that doesn't follow the Corporate line are discouraged and are disappearing.  What you are hearing is good basic gospel truths.  What you are not hearing is personal ideas on how do you truly use those gospel truths to relieve the suffering of others, to address the personal issues and questions individuals have.  I hear very little humble revelation of the inner souls and thoughts of our general authorities that truly come from the heart.  The only hearts that are touched are the hearts looking for confirmation of everything they already believe.

 

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

OK I agree they aren't North American.  I would make a bet that each of them patterned their lives on the North American general authorities they have been exposed to while church members.

I have a nose bleed

[kimpearson]

1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

I call BS on this......but that's just my opinion.

Just curious.  Do you think I am lying?  That I made it all up just to serve my own purposes?  That is impossible to talk to that many people?  What would it take for you to believe me?

[kimpearson]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So what sort of leaders should the Church be calling?
Just curious.

Oh I see.  People who aren't white, male, or middle class.
Sounds like racism, sexism, and class warfare to me.

Why does the fact of what kind of people lead the church bother you when it is pointed out?  I am in no way inferring that they are bad or shouldn't be there.  I am inferring that from a diversity of experience and race, there isn't much.  When you have everybody at the top with a similar basic background, you are going to hear messages that reflect that background.  Do these men have differences in their backgrounds? Yes.  But they also share an incredible amount of similar background.

[JLHPROF]

42 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Why does the fact of what kind of people lead the church bother you when it is pointed out?  I am in no way inferring that they are bad or shouldn't be there.  I am inferring that from a diversity of experience and race, there isn't much.  When you have everybody at the top with a similar basic background, you are going to hear messages that reflect that background.  Do these men have differences in their backgrounds? Yes.  But they also share an incredible amount of similar background.

If you feel to point out their race, gender, and income bracket then it's obviously an issue for you.  So let's address it.

I see no need for "diversity" in delivering the gospel words.  Repent and come to Christ doesn't need diversity.  Love your neighbor doesn't require diversity.  Pay your tithing, keep the word of wisdom, focus on your family.  No diversity required.
Read your scriptures, say your prayers, attend your meetings. 

October Conference Topics

• Pure Truth, Pure Doctrine, and Pure Revelation - President Nelson welcomes people to conference and invites them to listen for pure truth, the pure doctrine of Christ, and pure revelation.
• The Greatest Possession - Elder Holland teaches us to love God and follow Him completely.
• Come unto Christ and Don’t Come Alone - Sister Cordon teaches that we are children of God and that our eternal purpose is to bring others to Christ.
• The Savior’s Abiding Compassion - Elder Soares teaches us that we should follow the Savior’s example of compassion for others by withholding judgment and having patience.
• The Love of God - Elder Christofferson teaches that the commandments represent God’s love for us and mark the path of healing, happiness, peace, and joy.
• Becoming More in Christ: The Parable of the Slope - Elder Gilbert teaches that regardless of our circumstances, the Lord can help us reach our ultimate potential.
• A Faithful Search Rewarded - Elder Giuffra invites us to enjoy the blessings that come from having faith in Jesus Christ.
• The Need for a Church - President Oaks teaches the blessings of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ.
• With the Power of God in Great Glory - Elder Bednar teaches that honoring our covenants helps us receive the power of godliness in our lives.
• Faith to Act and Become - Elder Schmeil teaches that we can become better disciples of Jesus Christ as we ask, act, and study.
• God’s Love: The Most Joyous to the Soul - Sister Porter teaches that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have a pure love for each of us and that sharing Their love can bless us.
• Addressing Mental Health - Elder Kopischke shares some observations about mental illness, based on some of the trials his own family has gone through.
• The Things of My Soul - Elder Rasband shares seven “things of his soul”—precious principles that give purpose to his life as a disciple of Jesus Christ.
• Preparing for the Second Coming of Christ - Elder Golden teaches that we are getting closer to the Second Coming, a mournful day for the wicked but a day of peace for the righteous.
• Favored of the Lord in All My Days - Elder Villanueva uses the examples of the Savior, Nephi, and a young missionary to show how we can face adversity with joy and compassion.
• Simply Beautiful—Beautifully Simple - Elder Stevenson uses stories from four Latter-day Saints to illustrate ways we can fulfill our divinely appointed responsibilities.
• “Lovest Thou Me More Than These?” -President Ballard teaches us how we can show that we love the Savior above all worldly things by believing in Him, serving Him, and serving others.
• I Pray He’ll Use Us - Sister Eubank reports on the Church’s recent humanitarian aid efforts.
• Is There No Balm in Gilead? -Elder Nielson teaches that the Savior has the power to heal our hearts and sustain us through our trials as well as heal our bodies.
• Deepening Our Conversion to Jesus Christ - Elder Valenzuela teaches that we can deepen our conversion as we study the scriptures and learn more about Jesus Christ.
• Worthiness Is Not Flawlessness - Brother Wilcox teaches that we do not need to be perfect to have the grace and atoning power of Jesus Christ in our lives.
• To Be a Follower of Christ -Elder Kyungu teaches about four principles that can help us become better disciples of Jesus Christ.
• Hold Up Your Light - Elder Nash teaches us to share the gospel in normal and natural ways so that we and those we share with can have joy and many other blessings.
• The Faith to Ask and Then to Act -President Eyring teaches that we can receive revelation as we exercise faith and are willing to act.
• Daily Restoration - Elder Uchtdorf teaches that we all drift spiritually at times but that we can get back on course by daily following the spiritual landmarks God has provided.
• Invite Christ to Author Your Story - Sister Johnson teaches us how we can let the Savior be the author and finisher of our personal narrative by having more faith and letting God prevail in our lives.
• The Peace of Christ Abolishes Enmity - Elder Renlund teaches that by putting the love of God and our discipleship of Jesus Christ first, we can overcome our differences and find peace.
• A House of Sequential Order - Elder Sikahema teaches the blessings that can come when we live the gospel and do things in proper order.
• Personal Peace in Challenging Times - Elder Cook shares five of Jesus Christ’s teachings that can help us lessen contention and find peace in today’s challenging times.
• The Temple and Your Spiritual Foundation -President Nelson refers to work on the Salt Lake Temple foundation to teach how temple ordinances and covenants strengthen our spiritual foundation.
• Trust Again - Elder Gong teaches that trust is an act of faith and that as we trust in God and each other, we receive heaven’s blessings.
• Giving Holiness to the Lord - Bishop Budge reports on the Church’s recent humanitarian efforts and teaches that our sacrifices in these and other efforts are consecrated gifts to the Lord.
• Remember Thy Suffering Saints, O Our God Elder Perkins shares four principles to help those who suffer find hope and joy in Jesus Christ.
• One Percent Better - Elder Dunn teaches that each effort to repent, no matter how small it may seem, can bring great blessings.
• Facing Our Spiritual Hurricanes by Believing in Christ - Elder Douglas teaches that we face adversity best by having faith in Jesus Christ and keeping His commandments.
• Miracles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Elder Revillo teaches that obeying the principles and ordinances of the gospel blesses us and helps us become converted.
• Look down the Road - Elder Meredith uses the story of Peter walking on water to teach that if we focus on Christ and beware of distractions, we can be rescued.
• The Name of the Church Is Not Negotiable - Elder Andersen teaches about the importance of using the revealed name of the Church.
• Make Time for the Lord - President Nelson teaches about the importance of making time for the Lord each day and announces new temples.

Exactly what gospel instruction would a more diverse leadership provide that is currently missing?  And which of these topics would benefit from a non-white, non-male, non-middle class speaker?
(Which by the way includes at least 14/39 of these talks or 35% of conference speakers)

Edited January 14, 2022 by JLHPROF

[T-Shirt]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Just curious.  Do you think I am lying?  That I made it all up just to serve my own purposes?  That is impossible to talk to that many people?  What would it take for you to believe me?

Thousands = at least 2000

Hundreds = at least 200

That you have spoken with this many inactives and former members is not very believable and that all of them had the same response is not believable.  That you spoke with this many sons and daughters is not very believable and that they all had tears in their eyes is not believable.

I don't know if you made it up, misspoke or exaggerated, but I don't believe it is true, nor even close to being the truth.  That's my opinion.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

I call BS on this......but that's just my opinion.

If you have to use weasel words about how it is just your opinion to distance yourself from it and discourage people from disagreeing then maybe your lack of confidence in what you are saying and unwillingness to stand behind it might mean it is not worth saying?

But that is just my opinion*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*also a fact

[sunstoned]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:22 AM, Fether said:

Couldn’t the spirit inspire them what to write prior to the meeting? Or does God not have that ability?

Elder Ronald Poelman went by the spirit in his Nov 16, 1984 General Conference Talk.  Look where that got him.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This has piqued my interest a bit and I went looking for reactions to Conference in previous generations. I am wondering if the same complaints were found then. Sadly it is harder to find opinion polls and internet posts from the 1950s to the 1970s.

Here is a George Albert Smith talk.  He didn't need no freekin teleprompters. 

 

 

[SteveO]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you have to use weasel words about how it is just your opinion to distance yourself from it and discourage people from disagreeing then maybe your lack of confidence in what you are saying and unwillingness to stand behind it might mean it is not worth saying?

But that is just my opinion*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*also a fact

You think the statement is true?

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Here is a George Albert Smith talk.  He didn't need no freekin teleprompters. 

 

 

Not bad for someone who suffered from crippling anxiety and depression...

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You think the statement is true?

I didn’t express agreement or disagreement.

I just expressed disgust about the weaselly proviso.

[SteveO]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I didn’t express agreement or disagreement.

I just expressed disgust about the weaselly proviso.

I like Bull Maher’s line, “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s true”  

In this case: “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s not true”

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I like Bull Maher’s line, “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s true”  

In this case: “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s not true”

Okay. Why are you quoting me when you felt the need to say that?

[SteveO]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Okay. Why are you quoting me when you felt the need to say that?

Because saying “just my opinion” isn’t “weaselly” in this instance.  It was a polite way of telling someone what everyone else is thinking: they’re lying, or at the very least stretching the truth. 

Just my opinion of course.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, SteveO said:

Bold is absolutely fascinating…I’ve said for years the church has a bright future in Africa.  

Whilst I agree, I think he was just illustrating the principle. He said that, for far too long, the Church had tried to replicate programs that work in Salt Lake City in other locations, with very mixed and often bad results. No longer. If something works in Utah but doesn't work in Zimbabwe, then it needs to be replaced by something that works everywhere.

Quote

Edit to ask: any chance those remarks are recorded or a text available somewhere?  Would be interesting to read.

It was a leadership training meeting. Those don't get recorded. I have personal notes somewhere, filed away safely in a place I can't find them, so I'm just going by memory, but I have checked that memory a number of times against those of other men who were also in the meeting. This was the same meeting where Elder Bednar told us that the Church needed to change so drastically that people converted to the culture (versus the doctrines) would no longer be able to recognise it.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Whilst I agree, I think he was just illustrating the principle. He said that, for far too long, the Church had tried to replicate programs that work in Salt Lake City in other locations, with very mixed and often bad results. No longer. If something works in Utah but doesn't work in Zimbabwe, then it needs to be replace by something that works everywhere.

Funny you should mention Zimbabwe.  My parents served a mission there, and had a number of experiences with the replication problem you describe here.  My brother spent many years living in Samoa, and he reported similar issues there.

Thanks,

-Smac