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Clue on “Jeopardy!” highlights correct name of the Church


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20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I was referring to when non-LDS Mexicans refer to the LDS church. I have never heard a mestizo who is not LDS refer to the LDS church as la Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días. I think perhaps once or twice I have heard mestizo members use the entire name in Spanish outside of a formal church or stake setting. The name in Spanish is on the chapel and on a sign beside the temple. I don't remember seeing the name on the stake center. I may simply have missed it. It is important here to differentiate between mestizo and Mexican as one is a race and one is a nationality. It is a bigger deal here than the simple use of the term Mexican. Even Anglos with many generations here are not considered Mexican. Up through the 30s Anglos had to carry immigration cards even if they were born here. It is a long and complicated story and situation, especially here in northern Mexico and especially especially when discussing Mormons and Mennonites. No one cares whether an Anglo is a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, or a nothing, but Anglo and to a lesser degree mestizo Mormons and Mennonites are distinct groups with lots of baggage in the culture.

I don't expect non members from knowing the difference

That's why we are trying to create a differentiation so that "Mormon" = not politically correct.

I suspect that the tem mestizo would be "racist" here-I have never heard it used.

"Latino" is preferred by all, I think, who are native Spanish speakers.

I'll have to ask my daughter's boyfriend who majored in "Latino Studies"

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36 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I was referring to when non-LDS Mexicans refer to the LDS church. I have never heard a mestizo who is not LDS refer to the LDS church as la Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días. I think perhaps once or twice I have heard mestizo members use the entire name in Spanish outside of a formal church or stake setting. The name in Spanish is on the chapel and on a sign beside the temple. I don't remember seeing the name on the stake center. I may simply have missed it. It is important here to differentiate between mestizo and Mexican as one is a race and one is a nationality. It is a bigger deal here than the simple use of the term Mexican. Even Anglos with many generations here are not considered Mexican. Up through the 30s Anglos had to carry immigration cards even if they were born here. It is a long and complicated story and situation, especially here in northern Mexico and especially especially when discussing Mormons and Mennonites. No one cares whether an Anglo is a Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, or a nothing, but Anglo and to a lesser degree mestizo Mormons and Mennonites are distinct groups with lots of baggage in the culture.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/10/mestizo-and-mulatto-mixed-race-identities-unique-to-hispanics/?amp=1

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1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I was referring to when non-LDS Mexicans refer to the LDS church. I have never heard a mestizo who is not LDS refer to the LDS church as la Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días.

And that's why you need Ken Jennings 

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1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

Off the subject, but my kids’ dad is from Ciudad Juárez. The story goes that his mom’s father was a Mennonite and that is why they have light skin and his brother has blue eyes. I think my daughter would be interested to find out if the story is true but we wouldn’t even know where to start. 

Is the dad from Ciudad Juarez or Colonia Juarez?

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't expect non members from knowing the difference

That's why we are trying to create a differentiation so that "Mormon" = not politically correct.

I suspect that the tem mestizo would be "racist" here-I have never heard it used.

"Latino" is preferred by all, I think, who are native Spanish speakers.

I'll have to ask my daughter's boyfriend who majored in "Latino Studies"

The mestizo race is the preferred race here. It is the vast majority and in the post-revolutionary era the "Cosmic Race" - the super race. Don't confuse the politics and self-identity of Mexican-Americans (there)  and Mexicans (here). Don't confuse Mexican studies with Latino studies. Latino = Culture; Mexican = Nationality; Mestizo = Race Big difference between the three.

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On 1/7/2022 at 11:59 AM, JLHPROF said:

At least until the next Prophet changes direction.

I assume this will happen after Pre. Nelson does.  He has had a bee in his bonnet for a long time. At one conference he argued over the importance of the word “The”, which incidentally was left out of the church’s new website URL…

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45 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I assume this will happen after Pre. Nelson does.  He has had a bee in his bonnet for a long time. At one conference he argued over the importance of the word “The”, which incidentally was left out of the church’s new website URL…

That shows intelligence.

It makes a difference.   I have been wanting this for 40+ plus years.   That name HAD to go!

I am glad that most missionaries from Utah get to serve in the real world.

To be totally honest, though I have changed, thank God, before I joined 40 ish years ago I thought it impossible that God would entrust the true church to a bunch of farmers.

THAT is how much I have changed.

You can judge if that means "a little" or "a lot".     ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 1/7/2022 at 6:30 PM, pogi said:

 is our name really that foreign to people?

 

Yes.

It’s funny that mfb chose moravians.  The Moravian church was the first church I attended, as a child for around 6 years and i was christened by them.  When I reference my first church and my current church, I get the same blank look!  I almost always follow up the name of the church by saying, Mormons.  People usually then have some idea, though it’s usually the polygamists they think of!  And they have no idea of the beliefs of either church.  And sadly, I remember very little of the Moravian doctrine, but I was only 8 when I stopped attending!  My strongest memory of the moravians is christingles.

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7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't see that coming. I'd guess they are all pretty well on the same page.

I would have said the same thing with the I’m a Mormon campaign, but this does have the addition goal of not just “let’s help people get to know and understand us”, but “let’s make it really clear who we are”, so it may have even stronger roots than being highly successful. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Yes.

It’s funny that mfb chose moravians.  The Moravian church was the first church I attended, as a child for around 6 years and i was christened by them.  When I reference my first church and my current church, I get the same blank look!  I almost always follow up the name of the church by saying, Mormons.  People usually then have some idea, though it’s usually the polygamists they think of!  And they have no idea of the beliefs of either church.  And sadly, I remember very little of the Moravian doctrine, but I was only 8 when I stopped attending!  My strongest memory of the moravians is christingles.

The only reason I even know that name was that when my kids were little and we were new in the town where we live, we asked some folks in the ward if they knew where there was a pre-school that was honest and good.   It was during the time when preschools in LA had a bad reputation for all kinds of abuses.

They all pointed to one that was in a church in our town, and they all knew the name of the place only by its location- "You know, that church up there on  the corner of X and Y Street, across from the Mc Donald's?"

Didn't even know what religion it was, but the people had a great reputation for being kind to the kids, teaching well, and were all loving people.

We went right up there and it said "Moravian Church" somewhere and so I looked them up and found out they were Christians, and then I thought about what a weird name that was, but then I thought about the name "Mormon" and I figured it was at least as weird!  ;)

It was a wonderful preschool, and we ended up being friends with the teachers- fine fine people!   They had a great Christmas program that centered on Christ- as I recall- and man, we were happy as clams about being led there, even if they had a weird name.  ;)

 

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48 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Not sure. I think a cousin mentioned a Mennonite community, but it was so long ago I may not be remembering correctly. I don’t have a relationship with that side of the family any more. 

One of my best friends in my Catholic High School was dating a girl who was a member of "The Brethren"

These folks as I recall are similar to the Mennonites, but I will leave that one up to Navidad!

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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I also have a relative who lived under communism, and now she makes President Benson look like a commie himself!

That's often the case for those with lived experience of unbridled 'progressivism'. Our centre-right party here appears to be the natural home for migrants from a number of nations/backgrounds, and definitely those from Eastern Europe.

In my father's case, it took him a while to shift in his politics. For years, he continued to see the political Left as the friend of the working class and the 'little guy', fundamentally different somehow to the Communism he had lived under. By 1970, however, he'd started to recognise more and more of the latter in the former, and he eventually became what many would label politically 'conservative'.

To me, he was just a sensible moderate. He repeatedly taught me to fear all political extremes, emphasising that the extreme Left and the extreme Right are practically indiscernible apart from their own 'branding'.

His great hatred post-Czechoslovakia was uniformity. It chafed his Bohemian nature. For example, he allowed me to join the Scouting movement, but he forbade me wearing a uniform. (He'd seen too many links between uniforms and group-think, he said.) I earnt my Eagle Scout rank but never received it. I told my parents that I wanted to determine if all the people who'd told me that advancements were about learning and not about badges had been telling me the truth. Scout leaders kept pressuring me to submit the paperwork, so one day in frustration, I took it all outside and set it alight. My poor mum (who loved the idea of her son being an Eagle Scout) was aghast, but my father, though he said nothing, looked on with both approval and a bit of pride.

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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

One of my best friends in my Catholic High School was dating a girl who was a member of "The Brethren"

These folks as I recall are similar to the Mennonites, but I will leave that one up to Navidad!

There are at least twenty different Brethren groups in the US alone. Many of them affiliate with the Mennonites and acknowledge roots in Anabaptism. Some of the groups are the River Brethren (founded in part by the Whitmer family - they baptized each other in the lower Susquehanna south of Harrisburg to found the River Brethren group prior to being baptized in the northern Susquehanna some years later as members of the LDS church, Grace Brethren, The Church of the Brethren, The Brethren Church, The Brethren in Christ (had missions with the Navajo and Hopi the same time as the LDS folks), Plymouth Brethren (of which my father and mother were members and ministers), The United Brethren (an early name for the Moravians), The German Baptists (the group I believe the Whitmers attended when Joseph Smith lived in their home, the EUB or Evangelical United Brethren, and the Mennonite Brethren (possibly the biggest of the Brethren groups). The Mennonite Brethren have a college in Fresno called Fresno Pacific College or University now. The Church of the Brethren founded the University of LaVerne on the edge of the Inland Empire. I studied Ed Leadership there. Brethren groups also have colleges in Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and probably other places as well.

Complicating things is that here in Mexico, many of the Pentecostals are simply known as Los Hermanos - the Brethren. They are not affiliated with the groups I mentioned above. They are growing extraordinarily quickly here. Their message really resonates with a significant percentage of the Mexican culture, especially here in the north.

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25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

....Some of the groups are the River Brethren (founded in part by the Whitmer family - they baptized each other in the lower Susquehanna south of Harrisburg to found the River Brethren group prior to being baptized in the northern Susquehanna some years later as members of the LDS church....

They were baptized to found a church?  Does that mean that baptism requires authority of a/ the church?

I thought baptism was not required for that, and was only to re-affirm belief?

Of course WE do that, but maybe I misunderstood your remarks on what baptism is for?

And for Anabaptists?  🤔

Edited by mfbukowski
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14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

They were baptized to found a church?  Does that mean that baptism requires authority of a/ the church?

I thought baptism was not required for that, and was only to re-affirm belief?

Of course WE do that, but maybe I misunderstood your remarks on what baptism is for?

And for Anabaptists?  🤔

The Whitmer brothers baptized each other in the Susquehanna - nothing salvific about it. They then, with a Mennonite evangelist founded a sect they called River Brethren because they baptized in rivers. Their baptism was a testimony to the belief they already had confessed. Baptism equals testimony - witness- sharing of an a priori faith and salvation.

In order for someone to baptize in any church, group, or denomination a person needs the authority from THAT church to baptize in THAT church only. No Anabaptist group that I know of believes that baptism is salvific. I know of no other church, Anabaptis or otherwise, other than the LDS church believes that it has has the only authority in the world to baptize someone and that its baptism carries with it  the sole authority for salvific results. All I can say is that I know of no other groups who claims sole authority to baptize. Perhaps there are some obscure groups that do; I just don't know of any. Perhaps the Church of Christ did or still does. I have no idea.

If I were to become Catholic tomorrow I would not have to be baptized again. So no, the Catholic church does not claim sole baptismal authority for the whole world. Mainline Catholics have a whole page full of groups whose baptisms they accept as valid for membership in the Catholic church. Perhaps some Orthodox groups believe they have sole authority over baptism in the world. I don't know. I do know the LDS claim sole authority over baptism for the whole world. I know that at least prominent LDS apostle and later president claimed that when anyone other than an LDS priesthood holder baptizes he commits blasphemy. That is powerful stuff.  Thanks and best wishes.

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25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

The Whitmer brothers baptized each other in the Susquehanna - nothing salvific about it. They then, with a Mennonite evangelist founded a sect they called River Brethren because they baptized in rivers. Their baptism was a testimony to the belief they already had confessed. Baptism equals testimony - witness- sharing of an a priori faith and salvation.

In order for someone to baptize in any church, group, or denomination a person needs the authority from THAT church to baptize in THAT church only. No Anabaptist group that I know of believes that baptism is salvific. I know of no other church, Anabaptis or otherwise, other than the LDS church believes that it has has the only authority in the world to baptize someone and that its baptism carries with it  the sole authority for salvific results. All I can say is that I know of no other groups who claims sole authority to baptize. Perhaps there are some obscure groups that do; I just don't know of any. Perhaps the Church of Christ did or still does. I have no idea.

If I were to become Catholic tomorrow I would not have to be baptized again. So no, the Catholic church does not claim sole baptismal authority for the whole world. Mainline Catholics have a whole page full of groups whose baptisms they accept as valid for membership in the Catholic church. Perhaps some Orthodox groups believe they have sole authority over baptism in the world. I don't know. I do know the LDS claim sole authority over baptism for the whole world. I know that at least prominent LDS apostle and later president claimed that when anyone other than an LDS priesthood holder baptizes he commits blasphemy. That is powerful stuff.  Thanks and best wishes.

 

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

In order for someone to baptize in any church, group, or denomination a person needs the authority from THAT church to baptize in THAT church only.

So then some kind of authority IS required for baptism, and the Whitmers therefor needed to baptize each other in a river, (presumably because their previous baptism was not in a river,) to establish the River Brethren?

If that is the case it sounds like the change in Doctrine required the re-baptism to establish the authority of "church of river only baptizers"?

They then required all joining them to be re- baptized in a river?

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Never mind, having formatting problems on this device 

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 

So then some kind of authority IS required for baptism, and the Whitmers therefor needed to baptize each other in a river, (presumably because their previous baptism was not in a river,) to establish the River Brethren?

If that is the case it sounds like the change in Doctrine required the re-baptism to establish the authority of "church of river only baptizers"?

They then required all joining them to be re- baptized in a river?

You are making one assumption that I think is probably incorrect. That is that "they then required all joining them to be re-baptized in a river." I don't believe that is true. I know of no Mennonite or Brethren group or any Evangelical church that teaches that only those baptized by their specific church's method are the only ones correctly baptized. And yes, some kind of authority is required for someone to baptize in many, if not most Evangelical churches. The problem with conversation on a forum like this is that it is monological. That makes it hard to really have a discussion or dialogue!

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On 1/7/2022 at 10:00 PM, mfbukowski said:

A few years ago, we toured southern Poland right along the "border" of what would be Moravia: Prague, Wroclaw, Krakow, Zakopane, and of course Bukowina Tatrzańska and never had a clue that THAT was "Moravia" (kind of... ;) ! )  It is a legend that we came from Bukovina but I think it is more true that the NAME originated there and the family moved to the Big City.  I had been in Vienna a few times before, Prague was great but it was the first time I saw the actual "Infant of Prague" statue.

But anyway, I would be interested in the story-- privately or not-  are you Polish or Czech?  Please answer privately if you prefer.  Where more exactly were you?

I am totally enamored with the Czechs and "Bohemia"- it is clear that the arts are what the entire culture is about- fabulous folks!

 

Hey!

In my early 20s in the mid 90s I decided I needed to go "find myself." I thought about hitchhiking around Europe (so cliche, ha), but then I decided I wanted to actually learn a language and culture and not just be a perpetual tourist. I settled on the Czech Republic because it was cheap, it had been behind the iron curtain, and it had a cool name with "cz" ha. The more I researched the history and people the more excited I became.

I first lived in Prague for almost a year. What a city! There was so much to see and do. But then I decided I wanted small town living, so I moved to Moravia and lived in Kunovice, a tiny village right next to Uherske Hradiste in a part of Moravia known as Moravian Slovakia (it's a transition zone into Slovakia). Oh my goodness, I totally fell in love with the culture, the people (and a beautiful young woman named Marcela Merkova, ha). Small town living is the best if you really want to get to know a culture, and this part of Moravia kept their traditions, which was awesome. I stayed there for about a year and half before returning home due to financial issues because of visa problems.

I've visited a couple of times since, the last in 2007. I was supposed to go in the summer of 2020 (I even had a plane ticket), but then, ya know, covid.

I visited Poland and could get around ok speaking Czech, but I didn't spend much time there. My initial trip there was to visit Auschwitz. I love WW2 history and visited as many sites as I could in Central Europe.

The Czechs are absolutely fabulous folks.

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On 1/8/2022 at 1:04 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

But do you object if we just say “Catholocism”? I’m not aware of any Catholic having made an issue of it (and I’m not sure you are doing so here). 

I won’t object if you say “Mormonism.” But I have higher expectations of professing Latter-day Saints. 

No, I don't object at all. It was mainly a joke, because in the creed we say, "I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church." It's not an official name, just a declaration of what the Church is.

I try to avoid using "Mormon" out of respect.

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On 1/8/2022 at 5:39 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

My father lived in Czechoslovakia under the Communists. He wasn't Czech, but he was certainly a 'Bohemian'!

I admire how freedom loving the Czechs are. There was a museum exhibit I visited that was about Prague Spring (1968) when the Czechs tried to introduce human rights and the USSR invaded. It was quite touching. So many people told me how much they hated the communists.

The history of the Velvet Revolution is quite amazing, too. How quickly communism fell when it was no longer enforced by the USSR.

I did attend a May Day celebration put on by the communist party. A huge part of my small village was there... but that's only because the communists were offering free beer, sausage, and polka music. Who could resist that? ;) 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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On 1/8/2022 at 6:08 AM, Navidad said:

I must also confess (pun intended) that I am not sure of the official name of the Catholic Church.  I believe it is "The Catholic Church" no more and no less. However, I will yield to our Catholic friends for an authoritative answer.

Yes, I was just making a joke because of the creed. Roman Catholic Church is just fine :) 

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