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The uniqueness of the LDS Church


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1 minute ago, MacGyver said:

The author is Moses in both cases. It's the same book. Genesis or the First Book of Moses.

The only difference between the two is that the Lord had Joseph Smith restore some of the plain and precious truths that where lost over time in the Joseph Smith translation.

Yes like the fact that his name was Jehovah in the Old Testament. Jehovah is not the Father of Jesus Christ. Jehovah is Jesus Christ of the Old Testament.

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1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes like the fact that his name was Jehovah in the Old Testament. Jehovah is not the Father of Jesus Christ. Jehovah is Jesus Christ of the Old Testament.

This is the oversimplified modern LDS thinking. But it doesn't hold up under a little scrutiny. 

A little investigation clearly shows that the name/title Jehovah is applied to both the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ. 

There are many examples of Jehovah having to refer to the Father of Jesus Christ and not Jesus Christ. 

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8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

There are many examples of Jehovah having to refer to the Father of Jesus Christ and not Jesus Christ. 

Or, it is Jesus Christ acting on behalf of the Father and representing the Father, as explained earlier.

John 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

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Margaret Barker:

Quote

Many of the old certainties have been destroyed by new knowledge.  What has become clear to me time and time again is that the evidence indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense that we use that word.  Many in first century Palestine retained a world view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel.  Yahweh the Lord could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel, or in the Davidic king.  It was as  a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord.

 

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10 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Or, it is Jesus Christ acting on behalf of the Father and representing the Father, as explained earlier.

John 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

What leads you to believe that this statement by the Savior means he acts on behalf of the Father, represents him, and acts like he is him? 

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1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

The Hebrew word for Lord God is Jehovah Elohim. It doesn't matter who translates it. It's the same name. 

Well technically not really. No J in Hebrew for one thing.

The actual Hebrew:    יְהֹוָה‎ Yəhōwā and אֱלֹהִים‎ (ʔ)eloˈ(h)im assuming wiki is accurate.

I think you mean the Latinization of two Hebrew names of God. 

Edited by Calm
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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Well technically not really. No J in Hebrew for one thing. 

The actual Hebrew:  יְהֹוָה Yəhōwā and אֱלֹהִים‎ 

[(ʔ)eloˈ(h)im]), 

I think you mean the Latinization of two Hebrew names of God. 

Jehovah=YHWH 

Let's not split hairs. 

When people say that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, they mean he is the YHWH of the Old Testament. 

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11 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

What leads you to believe that this statement by the Savior means he acts on behalf of the Father, represents him, and acts like he is him? 

Jesus says so explicitly:  To know Jesus is to know his Father, because Jesus does only what his Father does.   This is born out in the context:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the worksBelieve me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."  (John 14:9-11)

And lest anyone misconstrue the verses above to be teaching that Jesus is the same person as the Father, his meaning is stated in the context, that it all has to do with the works that he does (they are the Father's), and the works that his followers will do:

John 14:12  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

John 14:20  "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

These verses, combined with dozens of others, are an indication that Jesus acts on behalf of the Father and represents him:

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

John 12:49; "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,  The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

John 5:23  "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

John 5:26-27:  "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

John 5:43  "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

John 10:25  "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me".

Jesus came in his Father's name and does only the works that the Father would have him do.  He is clearly acting on behalf of and representing his Father.  It seems pretty clear to me, anyway.   And, he has done the same since the fall of Adam, as Jehovah (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

And this is one way that Jesus can rightly be called "the Father", because he completely represents his Father, even as a separate and distinct being.

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5 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Jesus says so explicitly:  To know Jesus is to know his Father, because Jesus does only what his Father does.   This is born out in the context:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the worksBelieve me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."  (John 14:9-11)

And lest anyone misconstrue the verses above to be teaching that Jesus is the same person as the Father, his meaning is stated in the context, that it all has to do with the works that he does (they are the Father's), and the works that his followers will do:

John 14:12  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

John 14:20  "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

These verses, combined with dozens of others, are an indication that Jesus acts on behalf of the Father and represents him:

John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

John 12:49; "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,  The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

John 5:23  "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

John 5:26-27:  "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

John 5:43  "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

John 10:25  "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me".

Jesus came in his Father's name and does only the works that the Father would have him do.  He is clearly acting on behalf of and representing his Father.  It seems pretty clear to me, anyway.   And, he has done the same since the fall of Adam, as Jehovah (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

And this is one way that Jesus can rightly be called "the Father", because he completely represents his Father, even as a separate and distinct being.

These are great scriptures about the relationship between the Father and the Son. Obviously Christ is doing the will of the Father and was sent by Him, but I'm still failing to see where any of these scriptures say that Christ assumed the role of the Father and pretended (for lack of a better word) to be him during the Old Testament. 

Also, if Christ is doing his works in his Father's name and Christ's name is Jehovah, doesn't that make his Father's name Jehovah?

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2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

This is the oversimplified modern LDS thinking. But it doesn't hold up under a little scrutiny. 

A little investigation clearly shows that the name/title Jehovah is applied to both the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ. 

There are many examples of Jehovah having to refer to the Father of Jesus Christ and not Jesus Christ. 

I agree.

And furthermore, there are many examples of Jehovah and Elohim being the same in the Old Testament. For example, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD..." (Psalm 33:12)  This and other verses state that Elohim (God) is Jehovah (the LORD). Elohim is the word for God, and Jehovah is the name of God. 

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5 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

These are great scriptures about the relationship between the Father and the Son. Obviously Christ is doing the will of the Father and was sent by Him, but I'm still failing to see where any of these scriptures say that Christ assumed the role of the Father

Do those verses not say that Jesus was doing only what his Father would do?  That's not merely a relationship between the Father and the Son, but an indication of his action on behalf of the Father.  In other words, if the Father was on earth, he would be doing the exact same things that Jesus was doing.  He is representing his Father and Jesus says his authority to do so came from the Father.  He is the Father's agent and spokesperson and legal representative.

9 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

and pretended (for lack of a better word) to be him during the Old Testament. 

How Jesus was the representative of the Father during the Old Testament isn't specifically indicated in those verses, but the exact same principles apply.  And Jesus himself and several New Testament writers made the connection.  (And even in the Doctrine and Covenants:  "Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am" (D&C 29:1))
 

11 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Also, if Christ is doing his works in his Father's name and Christ's name is Jehovah, doesn't that make his Father's name Jehovah?

I don't follow your logic.  If the name of God the Father was Jehovah, then don't you think Jesus would have said so in the New Testament?  Instead, he consistently refers to him as "my Father" or "the Father", and never as "Jehovah".  There's a good reason for that:  God the Father isn't Jehovah, Jesus is Jehovah and he acted on behalf of the Father in the Old Testament, the same as he did in the New.  

Jesus did say that he was making his Father's "name" known:

John 17:6  "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

And:

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept,

In Jewish thought, a "name" isn't merely what you call someone, it represents the history and character, the reputation of the being.  Jesus was perpetuating the good name (reputation and character) of his Father by doing what the Father would do in the same circumstances, by doing his will.  And he also "kept" the disciples "in [his] name" by teaching them how to follow the Father.  It's the same kind of thing we are supposed to do when we take upon us the "name" of Christ, we are to be good representatives of the Savior (who represents the Father), in our word and deeds.
 

 

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24 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do those verses not say that Jesus was doing only what his Father would do?  That's not merely a relationship between the Father and the Son, but an indication of his action on behalf of the Father.  In other words, if the Father was on earth, he would be doing the exact same things that Jesus was doing.  He is representing his Father and Jesus says his authority to do so came from the Father.  He is the Father's agent and spokesperson and legal representative.

How Jesus was the representative of the Father during the Old Testament isn't specifically indicated in those verses, but the exact same principles apply.  And Jesus himself and several New Testament writers made the connection.  (And even in the Doctrine and Covenants:  "Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am" (D&C 29:1))
 

I don't follow your logic.  If the name of God the Father was Jehovah, then don't you think Jesus would have said so in the New Testament?  Instead, he consistently refers to him as "my Father" or "the Father", and never as "Jehovah".  There's a good reason for that:  God the Father isn't Jehovah, Jesus is Jehovah and he acted on behalf of the Father in the Old Testament, the same as he did in the New.  

Jesus did say that he was making his Father's "name" known:

John 17:6  "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

And:

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept,

In Jewish thought, a "name" isn't merely what you call someone, it represents the history and character, the reputation of the being.  Jesus was perpetuating the good name (reputation and character) of his Father by doing what the Father would do in the same circumstances, by doing his will.  And he also "kept" the disciples "in [his] name" by teaching them how to follow the Father.  It's the same kind of thing we are supposed to do when we take upon us the "name" of Christ, we are to be good representatives of the Savior (who represents the Father), in our word and deeds.
 

 

Thank you. I also kind of think that may be Jehovah did not have a body until He came to dwell Among Us as Jesus Christ.

I have never been to the temple or held a Temple recommend but don't you all receive a different name for after the resurrection? A Celestial name?

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34 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do those verses not say that Jesus was doing only what his Father would do?  That's not merely a relationship between the Father and the Son, but an indication of his action on behalf of the Father.  In other words, if the Father was on earth, he would be doing the exact same things that Jesus was doing.  He is representing his Father and Jesus says his authority to do so came from the Father.  He is the Father's agent and spokesperson and legal representative.

Sure, but none of the verses you shared say that the Savior pretended to be the Father in Old Testament times. If anything they suggest that he actually is the Father. Which is where the false idea of the Holy Trinity came from.

39 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

How Jesus was the representative of the Father during the Old Testament isn't specifically indicated in those verses, but the exact same principles apply.  And Jesus himself and several New Testament writers made the connection.  (And even in the Doctrine and Covenants:  "Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am" (D&C 29:1))

Again, nothing here says that Jesus pretended to be the Father in Old Testament times. You are reading that into the text. 

 

44 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I don't follow your logic.  If the name of God the Father was Jehovah, then don't you think Jesus would have said so in the New Testament?  Instead, he consistently refers to him as "my Father" or "the Father", and never as "Jehovah". 

The name Jehovah doesn't actually appear in the New Testament, since it was written in Greek, not Hebrew. But there are several instances were Jesus and the authors of the New Testament refer to the Father as Lord (which would presumably mean Jehovah). 

Jesus also quotes several Old Testament scriptures were the name Jehovah is used and applies the name Jehovah to his Father.

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

In Jewish thought, a "name" isn't merely what you call someone, it represents the history and character, the reputation of the being.  Jesus was perpetuating the good name (reputation and character) of his Father by doing what the Father would do in the same circumstances, by doing his will.  And he also "kept" the disciples "in [his] name" by teaching them how to follow the Father.  It's the same kind of thing we are supposed to do when we take upon us the "name" of Christ, we are to be good representatives of the Savior

When we take upon us the name of Christ, we actually use the name Christ to refer to Christ and not ourselves. We also don't pretend to be Christ, either.

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55 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Thank you. I also kind of think that may be Jehovah did not have a body until He came to dwell Among Us as Jesus Christ.

I have never been to the temple or held a Temple recommend but don't you all receive a different name for after the resurrection? A Celestial name?

Yes, but please don’t use it. It is awkwardly long when people call me “Lord Abaddon the Destroyer, Prince of Locusts, Warden of the Gates of Sheol”. 

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6 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Sure, but none of the verses you shared say that the Savior pretended to be the Father in Old Testament times. If anything they suggest that he actually is the Father. Which is where the false idea of the Holy Trinity came from.

What about any of those verses would make you think Jesus "actually is the Father"?

7 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Again, nothing here says that Jesus pretended to be the Father in Old Testament times. You are reading that into the text. 

Who is "The Great I AM" in the Old Testament?

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The name Jehovah doesn't actually appear in the New Testament, since it was written in Greek, not Hebrew. But there are several instances were Jesus and the authors of the New Testament refer to the Father as Lord (which would presumably mean Jehovah). 

Can you please provide those verses so we can discuss them?

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Jesus also quotes several Old Testament scriptures were the name Jehovah is used and applies the name Jehovah to his Father.

Likewise, can you provide New Testament verses quoting the Old Testament where Jesus actually applies the name Jehovah (or "LORD" as it would appear in the Greek) to his Father?   

11 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

When we take upon us the name of Christ, we actually use the name Christ to refer to Christ and not ourselves. We also don't pretend to be Christ, either.

You keep using the word "pretend", and that indicates to me you are missing the point.  There is authority in his name and we may act in his name, as his representatives, if we are doing his will.  It's like the concept of "power of attorney", which is to act for another person in specific legal matters.  We don't "pretend" to be him, if we are called to do so we are his authorized representatives.  As Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." (John 13:20)

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1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

I have never been to the temple or held a Temple recommend but don't you all receive a different name for after the resurrection? A Celestial name?

I find the name thing interesting, since in Revelation it says for those who "overcome", Jesus will write upon them the name of his God, and his own "new name":

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."  (Revelation 3:12)
 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but please don’t use it. It is awkwardly long when people call me “Lord Abaddon the Destroyer, Prince of Locusts, Warden of the Gates of Sheol”. 

Man, no fair, mine was blah, so not me and hoping to get a do over. 

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6 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

When questioned by the Jews Jesus replied:

John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 

This almost got Him killed. 
it should put to rest some of the odd speculations on this thread. 
Trust Talmage. 

What speculation?  Jehovah didn't get identified as the premortal Christ for the first half a century of the Church.  And when Talmage publicly affixed the label he wasn't the Church President.  Basically he just got people to accept his theory, although admittedly it had been mentioned previously.  A theory not taught by the first three or more prophets of the Church.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the entire theology of the Church could be altered by the next book written by Elder Uchtdorf or Elder Bednar for example?  That's a little worrisome.

Edited by JLHPROF
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7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

When questioned by the Jews Jesus replied:

John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 

This almost got Him killed. 
it should put to rest some of the odd speculations on this thread. 
Trust Talmage. 

Yet the Lord Jesus Christ approvingly quotes David who says that the messiah (the Lord) is the Son of Jehovah (the LORD).

And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (the Messiah), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Luke 20)

I’m sure you know that the name Jehovah (or Yahweh) in the King James Bible is always rendered as LORD with all capital letters. So here we have a verse approvingly used by the Savior himself that clearly states the Lord (the Messiah) is the Son of Jehovah. In fact, when the Lord quoted this verse he would have actually said, “Jehovah said to my Lord…”

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

What speculation?  Jehovah didn't get identified as the premortal Christ for the first half a century of the Church.

It seems to me that Jesus made that connection clearly in 3 Nephi 11:14, "Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world."

Who exactly is "the God of Israel" if not Jehovah?  Psalm 41:13  "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen."

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11 hours ago, StandForever said:

there are many examples of Jehovah and Elohim being the same in the Old Testament. For example, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD..." (Psalm 33:12)  This and other verses state that Elohim (God) is Jehovah (the LORD). Elohim is the word for God, and Jehovah is the name of God. 

Yes, you are correct. In Hebrew the word elohim is the generic word for God. Elohim is frequently used in conjunction with Jehovah, like in Psalm 33:12, but it is also used in conjunction with false gods. For example:

23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods (elohim), nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

25 And ye shall serve the Lord (Jehovah) your God (Elohim), and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Exodus 23

But just because the word elohim can also be applied to false gods, this doesn't change the fact that Elohim is also a name of the true God.

 

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Yet the Lord Jesus Christ approvingly quotes David who says that the messiah (the Lord) is the Son of Jehovah (the LORD).

And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (the Messiah), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Luke 20)

I’m sure you know that the name Jehovah (or Yahweh) in the King James Bible is always rendered as LORD with all capital letters. So here we have a verse approvingly used by the Savior himself that clearly states the Lord (the Messiah) is the Son of Jehovah. In fact, when the Lord quoted this verse he would have actually said, “Jehovah said to my Lord…”

Great scripture. And there are more examples like this, where Jesus or the New Testament authors refer to the Father of Jesus Christ as Jehovah. 

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