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The uniqueness of the LDS Church


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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I take the ‘Jesus is God in the Old Testament’ only to mean that the Son was the figure that generally appeared in the rare cases of people seeing God in the Old Testament and does not mean the Father was absent.

Sounds like we have about the same understanding then.

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13 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In 1 Nephi 1, Lehi sees God the Father sitting on the throne of his power as he’s being worshipped by the hosts of heaven. The the preexistent Savior and his disciples then appear on the scene as the Savior gives Lehi a prophetic book to read that pronounces cursings on Jerusalem unless it’s inhabitants repent. Clearly, in Lehi’s first vision (a coincidence?) the Father and the Son are presented as two separate personages in human form. Later on in the Book of Mormon, in Alma 36, Alma also sees God the Father seated on a throne in the form of a man, not as an “immaterial” entity without body, parts and passions.

The Book of Mormon opens with Lehi's vision that implies the distinction of Persons between the Father and the Son. Yet it explicitly states in multiple places thereafter that the Father and the Son are the same Person. This is at best a paradox and at worst a contradiction. This makes it impossible to claim that the Book of Mormon is a source of clarity in doctrine.

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8 minutes ago, StandForever said:

The Book of Mormon opens with Lehi's vision that implies the distinction of Persons between the Father and the Son. Yet it explicitly states in multiple places thereafter that the Father and the Son are the same Person. This is at best a paradox and at worst a contradiction. This makes it impossible to claim that the Book of Mormon is a source of clarity in doctrine.

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon so you can actually understand it, or do you just snoop around it looking for things to find fault?

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14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Have you ever read the Book of Mormon so you can actually understand it, or do you just snoop around it looking for things to find fault?

I have been the gospel doctrine class teacher in my ward, which included a year of teaching the Book of Mormon. I took my calling seriously and studied the Book of Mormon diligently during that year. I have also read it and studied it many other times. 

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17 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The "royal we".

Perhaps some LDS (including you) use Yahweh/Jehovah to refer to the father, but I think you would be in the minority. Perhaps you are confused by the way Yahweh & Jehovah are referred to as the Father, but it is still Jesus in his role as father, not THE Father.

I don't believe I'm confused, but if you think so, maybe you can help me out.

Who is the Lord God (Jehovah God) in Moses 1 from this weeks' Come Follow Me reading?

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Is this Lord God (Jehovah) not the Father? Or do you believe Jesus was his own Only Begotten Son?

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22 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I don't believe I'm confused, but if you think so, maybe you can help me out.

Who is the Lord God (Jehovah God) in Moses 1 from this weeks' Come Follow Me reading?

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Is this Lord God (Jehovah) not the Father? Or do you believe Jesus was his own Only Begotten Son?

Well, it's no secret I don't hold to standard or official Church beliefs on this.

However, I will for the record state my opinion again - Jehovah in the OT is not Jesus, despite what current Church teaching holds.
In my opinion, Jehovah is an office held by resurrected Saviors.  Which is why Christ was rightly called Jehovah in D&C 110, but not prior to receiving his mortal body.

The Eloheim - council of the Gods, oversees Jehovah's (former Saviors) as they direct Michaels/Adams in creating their worlds.  The Jehovah in the Old Testament was an "only begotten" from a previous creation.
 

Christ appeared to nobody before the Brother of Jared. Ether 3:15

but

Jehovah (the Lord) appeared to Adam and Enoch.  Genesis 3:8 & Moses 7:4, D&C 107:49

 

Jehovah (the Lord) was the father of our spirits. Zech 12:1, Jeremiah 1:4-5, Isaiah 42:5, Deut 14:1

but

Christ was a spirit child like us.  Abraham 3:27

 

 

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42 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I don't believe I'm confused, but if you think so, maybe you can help me out.

Who is the Lord God (Jehovah God) in Moses 1 from this weeks' Come Follow Me reading?

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Is this Lord God (Jehovah) not the Father? Or do you believe Jesus was his own Only Begotten Son?

Um He doesn't say His name is Jehovah in those verses. I just thought I would point that out. Carry on.

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21 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Um He doesn't say His name is Jehovah in those verses. I just thought I would point that out. Carry on.

Old Testament uses "LORD" where Jehovah/Yahweh is written.
So if he says "Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty" it's saying Jehovah.

So in these verses we have basically:
"31 And behold, the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God (Jehovah) said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.


So here you have Jehovah saying that he created the worlds by his only begotten son.  Clearly this Jehovah wasn't Jesus so another explanation is needed.
As one believer of the Jesus is God of the Old Testament doctrine put it - "When it says Lord (Yaweh) it means Jesus, except when it doesn't mean Jesus but means the Father."

Edited by JLHPROF
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1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I don't believe I'm confused, but if you think so, maybe you can help me out.

Who is the Lord God (Jehovah God) in Moses 1 from this weeks' Come Follow Me reading?

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Is this Lord God (Jehovah) not the Father? Or do you believe Jesus was his own Only Begotten Son?

As Rod mentioned, these verses never refer to THE Father as Jehovah so I'm not sure what you think these verses prove.

Having said that, if there are verses or official sources that say God the Father is Jehovah I'd be interested in seeing that. I don't mind being wrong. I just don't think this post moves the needle in any way.

Also, with both God the Father and Jesus (Jehovah) using the title of FATHER at different times I don't know that it's always discernable which one is speaking. Could Jesus be speaking about himself in this passage as a messenger for the Father, using some kind of extra-divine investiture? Sure. But I don't see that it matters.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Old Testament uses "LORD" where Jehovah/Yahweh is written.
So if he says "Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty" it's saying Jehovah.

So in these verses we have basically:
"31 And behold, the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God (Jehovah) said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.


So here you have Jehovah saying that he created the worlds by his only begotten son.  Clearly this Jehovah wasn't Jesus so another explanation is needed.
As one believer of the Jesus is God of the Old Testament doctrine put it - "When it says Lord (Yaweh) it means Jesus, except when it doesn't mean Jesus but means the Father."

That's interesting. Where do we learn that?

So are you suggesting that the Book of Moses should also be considered like Old Testament scripture?

What do you think of my previous statement about Jesus using a form of divine investiture to speak on behalf of the Father about himself?

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58 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's interesting. Where do we learn that?

LORD/LORD GOD is used as translation for Jehovah or Yaweh.  That's standard Old Testament.
I'm sure Robert could elucidate better as to why and how.

Elohim (plural) is translated as God.  Because of its plurality LDS theology considers this as "the Gods" or the Council of Gods etc.
Yaweh is translated as Lord.  Current Church teaching is that this is Jesus except when it can't be then it's Heavenly Father.  I don't agree with that interpretation.

 

image.thumb.png.73e88c804e8579a5413756723eaf8a08.pngimage.png.9350e839348cc4518eb78c8619cf34c6.png

 

Quote

So are you suggesting that the Book of Moses should also be considered like Old Testament scripture?

Considering it's literally Joseph's translation and expansion of Genesis, yes, absolutely.

 

 

Edited by JLHPROF
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15 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In 1 Nephi 1, Lehi sees God the Father sitting on the throne of his power as he’s being worshipped by the hosts of heaven.

I really hate this idea that God the Father is sitting on a throne and people worship Him. I am a father, and that is the last thing I would like my children to do. I would hope that God would expect us to be busily engaged in doing good, not worshipping Him. And I understand that our positive actions can be a sign of worship, but that is definitely not what that sentence implies with the words used. 

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23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So here you have Jehovah saying that he created the worlds by his only begotten son.  Clearly this Jehovah wasn't Jesus so another explanation is needed.
As one believer of the Jesus is God of the Old Testament doctrine put it - "When it says Lord (Yaweh) it means Jesus, except when it doesn't mean Jesus but means the Father."

It is simple, really.  It's a basic principle throughout scripture, where a representative of God the Father speaks the words of God the Father in the first person.  Or a representative of Jesus Christ may do the same.  Prophets of God do this.  Angels of God do this.   So yes, Jehovah in these verses is the premortal Jesus Christ speaking the words of God the Father in the first person.  He has been the mediator between God and man since the fall.

Sometimes the words of the Father are delivered by Jesus in the first person, in very much the same way as the angel, who gave the "Revelation" to John on the Isle of Patmos, delivered the words of Jesus in the first person in some cases.  

For the Revelation example, 1:1 begins, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John".  And later we find the angel saying, "These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."  (Revelation 22:6-7)   "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" (Revelation 22:13-16). 

Here we have the angel speaking the words of Jesus in the first person and the angel references himself as "his angel" or "mine angel".  John was so caught up by this that he fell down to worship the angel on two different occasions (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9)

The concept explained above, of a messenger or mediator speaking in the first person the words of another, is exactly what is happening in Moses chapter 1, Psalm 2:7, or in Psalm 110:1,4, where Jesus (Jehovah) is speaking the words of the Father, and references himself as "my Son" and "Lord".  The doctrine that Jesus is Jehovah is totally consistent with the biblical concept of mediators and messengers delivering the words of another in the first person, and Jesus (Jehovah) is the mediator between God and man.
 

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23 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I really hate this idea that God the Father is sitting on a throne and people worship Him. I am a father, and that is the last thing I would like my children to do. I would hope that God would expect us to be busily engaged in doing good, not worshipping Him. And I understand that our positive actions can be a sign of worship, but that is definitely not what that sentence implies with the words used. 

Except it is one of the blessings of exaltation.  That our families will praise us and call us blessed.
In fact it's one of the blessings promised to those of us who receive our exaltation - blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions, and exaltations.

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42 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I really hate this idea that God the Father is sitting on a throne and people worship Him. I am a father, and that is the last thing I would like my children to do. I would hope that God would expect us to be busily engaged in doing good, not worshipping Him. And I understand that our positive actions can be a sign of worship, but that is definitely not what that sentence implies with the words used. 

But you do find joy in hearing your children tell you they love you. And what do you do in return, and what is the overall result? And teh more, the merrier. I wouldn't let ancient imagery get in the way of that.

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25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except it is one of the blessings of exaltation.  That our families will praise us and call us blessed.
In fact it's one of the blessings promised to those of us who receive our exaltation - blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions, and exaltations.

Not having any of that then.

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3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's a pretty rude opening question of a new poster. Dang, man!

Talk about assuming the worst.

Here’s a member of the Church (until his post in response to mine I presumed he was a nonmember) who was a gospel doctrine teacher, and yet is apparently unaware of one of the Book of Mormon’s most foundational and important teachings concerning the nature and salvific role of Jesus Christ; to wit that he is the Father of heaven and earth because he is the Creator, and he is also the Father of our salvation through his infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice, by which we are spiritually begotten unto him as his adopted children unto salvation. I mistakenly presumed these basic, very well known points of doctrine — so often pointed to in the Church for generations as imminently reasonable explanations for why Christ is often referred to in the Book of Mormon as a divine Father — would be known and understood by even a reasonably a knowledgeable member of the Church.

My presumption was incorrect, for which I apologize. It was presumptuous on my part to presume he was likely a nonmember troll. It’s true that I can be arrogant at times, for which I definitely need to repent. But the problem is that there are so many snide and calculated remarks regularly found on these forums that it’s all too easy to mistake a sincere inquiry for the cunning machinations of a troll. Still, this is no excuse. I’ll try harder to not jump to conclusions in the future. Sincere thanks for calling me out.

Edited by teddyaware
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41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not having any of that then.

That's an assumption.  When all is said and done, and final judgement and resurrection complete, you have no idea what your situation will be.

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3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I don't believe I'm confused, but if you think so, maybe you can help me out.

Who is the Lord God (Jehovah God) in Moses 1 from this weeks' Come Follow Me reading?

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Is this Lord God (Jehovah) not the Father? Or do you believe Jesus was his own Only Begotten Son?

Or that Jesus can speak with authority as if He is the Father and often does.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Or that Jesus can speak with authority as if He is the Father and often does.

Why would he pretend to be his own father? What purpose is there in this? Why not say he is Jesus Christ, like he had done earlier when he appeared to the Brother of Jared?

 

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5 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Why would he pretend to be his own father? What purpose is there in this? Why not say he is Jesus Christ, like he had done earlier when he appeared to the Brother of Jared?

 

"Why" is an interesting question but the idea of divine investiture or divine pretension is well-established.

Quote

Divine investiture - MormonWiki.org

Divine investiture

 

Neal A. Maxwell summarizes the concept:

"Divine investiture is defined as that condition in which --in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. ... Thus. .. Jesus Christ spoke and ministered and through the Father's name; and so far as power, authority and Godship is concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father."[1]

The concept was first explained in a 1916 First Presidency message drafted by James Talmage: "The Father and the Son': A Doctrinal Exposition of the First Presidency and the Twelve"[2]. It was "subsequently championed by Joseph Fielding Smith and, to a much greater extent, by his son-in-law."[3]

It is well known that the 1916 doctrinal exposition "came about as a response to questions about the Godhead."[4] Members were confused about conflicting views of God between the Lectures on Faith, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and later important sources of doctrine. The doctrine of divine investiture is seen by non-Mormons as an effort to account for the modalism of the Book of Mormon, wherein the person of the Father is indistinguishable from the person of the Son, as well as to account for tension heightened by the Elohim/Jehovah distinction, a convention which, like the divine investiture concept, was created in 1916[5]. That the Son, being Jehovah in the Old Testament, demands and accepts prayer and worship, would be awkward for LDS theology, since the Father is the one who is to be worshiped and prayed to.

Mormons Ari D. Bruening and David L. Paulsen (BYU professor) both admit this was a new doctrine, although both disagree that it was needed to reconcile Book of Mormon passages:

"None of these doctrines, excepting perhaps divine investiture of authority, was new at the time [1916]. Divine investiture of authority is the process by which the Father allows the Son or the Holy Ghost to speak in his name, as if the Son or the Holy Ghost were the Father. This doctrine provides an interesting explanation through which to understand the apparently modalistic verses in the Book of Mormon, but it certainly is not a necessary explanation; the Book of Mormon itself describes Christ as creator (see Mosiah 3:8) and as father of those who abide in the gospel (see Mosiah 15:10–11). Thus, the principle of divine investiture of authority was a new doctrine, but it was certainly not a doctrine needed to reconcile 'contradictory Book of Mormon passages.'"[6]

Mormon Jeffrey D. Giliam writes:

"This principle [of divine investiture] was obviously invented (at least partially) to help harmonize the doctrine that Christ is Jehovah. Thus Christ can call himself the Father whenever he wants. This doctrine has been taken to the extreme wherein we now say that all revelation since the fall of Adam has come through the Son and not the Father. If the Father wants to reveal something, He send[s] Jesus to do it (again). If the Father appears to someone, it is only to introduce Jesus and let him take over."[7]

 

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9 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Why would he pretend to be his own father? What purpose is there in this? Why not say he is Jesus Christ, like he had done earlier when he appeared to the Brother of Jared?

Just one of many issues with the "Jehovah of the OT is Jesus" doctrine.
Jehovah appeared to Adam and Enoch and probably others.  Christ said the Brother of Jared was the first time he appeared to anyone as a spirit child.

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

"Why" is an interesting question but the idea of divine investiture or divine pretension is well-established.

Is that really the best explanation when Jehovah in scripture speaks of his only begotten son?  That Jesus is speaking about himself in the 3rd person?

3ffbc14d8ade458eb854a5935dcb2d0e.jpg

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