Orthodox Christian Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 (edited) Good morning everyone, and I suppose, as it is getting close, it's reasonable to wish you all a very merry Christmas. I am interested to hear your views on repentence. In Orthodoxy, repentence plays a very big part in our walk with God, some might argue that we are overly preoccupied with it. For example, we constantly ask God for His mercy, obviously acknowledging our sinful state before Him. How do the LDS view reoentence? I hope this is posted in the right place, apologies if not. Edited December 23, 2021 by Orthodox Christian Link to comment
teddyaware Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Good morning everyone, and I suppose, as it is getting close, it's reasonable to wish you all a very merry Christmas. I am interested to hear your views on repentence. In Orthodoxy, repentence plays a very big part in our walk with God, some might argue that we are overly preoccupied with it. For example, we constantly ask God for His mercy, obviously acknowledging our sinful state before Him. How do the LDS view reoentence? I hope this is posted in the right place, apologies if not. Since the words repent and repentance appear 313 times in the Book of Mormon, it’s safe to say the principal of repentance is of utmost importance in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In fact, we frequently refer to the gospel of Jesus Christ as the ‘Gospel of Repentance.’ 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted December 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2021 (edited) Joseph Smith summarized key points in our faith when asked what the Gospel was about. Repentance is mentioned in the fourth one: Quote We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We talk about repentance a lot, though in my experience it is more focused on the positive aspects of wanting to change to be better at following God.*** Repentance is the tool that helps us repair the damage we do ourselves and our relationship with God and others. Other members may have had a different experience as some teachers and leaders may be more negative in their approach unlike my family and general experience…for which I am grateful as I look on repentance as an opportunity that brings joy more than an obligation. (I see commandments as God telling us what choices will bring us the most happiness overtime.) It is often taught as the R’s, the number and names vary a bit. The first three though are almost always the same. First recognition of the sin as a sin, then remorse, restitution as possible, relating (confession as needed, I don’t like this label, but can’t remember the R word I prefer , may change it when I remember), reformation (we need to not just stop our behaviour but replace it with good), resolution (moving on with life so to speak so we don’t get trapped by obsessing over something we have hopefully changed with the help of God)…I like to add reconciliation in there either before or after resolution with both God and those we have wounded by our sins and mistakes. But I prefer a more straightforward discussion such as this linked below as I don’t think it is all that hard to remember what we need to do to repent once we get to a sincere remorse, of course we will want to restore to others what we have taken or otherwise help them heal, for example. And we will desire to have back what we lost in our relationships as often that loss is why we recognize the sin and feel remorse in the first place. Unfortunately if we have wounded others, perhaps deeply, the last thing they may want is anything to do with us. We made need to work for years to truly restore what was lost and there are many things we won’t be able to as once faith is lost in us, trust can be very difficult to restore again and it may never actually happen. Impatience is not a part of repentance even if eagerness should be, but also persistence. If we think of repentance as an easy fix because God is loving and generous to us, we need to think again because it just isn’t God we need to pay attention to in our repentance. We need to realize just because we want to move forward with healing and are ready for it ourselves with God’s help, those we have hurt need to heal in their own time. I think one thing our church community does not that well is expecting forgiveness to come too easily to those who are hurt as we are taught by Christ to forgive and by forgiving we can heal through the Spirit, but too often we act like forgetting someone has sinned against us is all that is needed and in fact are treated as if we are doing wrong is we aren’t ready…and forgiveness definitely isn’t forgetting when dealing with mortals, especially if the sinner does not actually try to restore as much as they can to us. Truly sincere repentance, that deserves our best efforts to try and forgive but first we have to right to take the time and space we need to heal or we can’t truly forgive any more than the sinner will truly repent if they think they can skip the restitution part if they are forgiven. This part of repentance could be a major discussion in my opinion. Sometimes the approach to restitution and reconciliation is overly simplistic in the Church (not the Gospel), imo. Steps: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng Also: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/10/the-divine-gift-of-repentance?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2003/10/repentance-and-change?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/10/confession-and-forsaking-elements-of-genuine-repentance?lang=eng ***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/04/repentance-a-blessing-of-membership?lang=eng Edited December 23, 2021 by Calm 5 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 7 hours ago, teddyaware said: Since the words repent and repentance appear 313 times in the Book of Mormon, it’s safe to say the principal of repentance is of utmost importance in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In fact, we frequently refer to the gospel of Jesus Christ as the ‘Gospel of Repentance.’ Although repentance for us us a way of life, we rather think that the Good News as Christ taught it is the Gospel of Life. Link to comment
teddyaware Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Although repentance for us us a way of life, we rather think that the Good News as Christ taught it is the Gospel of Life. The Gospel of Repentance is only one of the many ways we Latter-Day Saints express our understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We too believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the light and life of the world through his infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for the sins. But as all powerful as his sacrifice for sin is, the only way it’s supernal blessings can be obtained is through faith in Christ and sincere repentance. Edited December 24, 2021 by teddyaware 1 Link to comment
SkyRock Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 Repentance isn't merely about sin. It is about change. It is about putting off the natural man and becoming a new person through Jesus. It is about changing how we think and act. Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 6 hours ago, SkyRock said: Repentance isn't merely about sin. It is about change. It is about putting off the natural man and becoming a new person through Jesus. It is about changing how we think and act. Can't give you any reputation points yet (you need 25 posts), so this will have to suffice: +1! 1 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 24, 2021 Author Share Posted December 24, 2021 7 hours ago, SkyRock said: Repentance isn't merely about sin. It is about change. It is about putting off the natural man and becoming a new person through Jesus. It is about changing how we think and act. Hi Skyrock, I absolutely agree. It isnt so much about being sorry for our sins as being sorrowful deep in our hearts for them and of course turning to God in the hope of forgiveness and His grace to help us change. The reason I asked the question is because I believe that some Christian traditions are a bit lite on repentance, rather, they prefer to emphasise the positive. However, repentance, properly understood, is a healing activity and which gives a kind of freedom. When we acknowledge our state before God and really look at ourselves we are freed from delusion, vanity and pride. It is a very liberating and positive. Link to comment
Calm Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 31 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: However, repentance, properly understood, is a healing activity and which gives a kind of freedom Freedom comes from obedience to God’s laws and that includes, since none are perfectly obedient, recognition we have sinned, understanding of the sin’s impact as best we can, and then repentance when we break God’s laws so we can be reconciled again with God through his Spirit. To me that is as positive as it gets. Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 24, 2021 Author Share Posted December 24, 2021 26 minutes ago, Calm said: Freedom comes from obedience to God’s laws and that includes, since none are perfectly obedient, recognition we have sinned, understanding of the sin’s impact as best we can, and then repentance when we break God’s laws so we can be reconciled again with God through his Spirit. To me that is as positive as it gets. Repentance is a major part of God's law, the sacrifices of the OT were about repentance, reconciliation, and thanksgiving. So it is integral to working out our salvation as Christians, but of course now we approach the Throne of Grace through our Saviour under the guidance of His Holy Spirit. Amazing isn't it? Link to comment
SkyRock Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: Hi Skyrock, I absolutely agree. It isnt so much about being sorry for our sins as being sorrowful deep in our hearts for them and of course turning to God in the hope of forgiveness and His grace to help us change. The reason I asked the question is because I believe that some Christian traditions are a bit lite on repentance, rather, they prefer to emphasise the positive. However, repentance, properly understood, is a healing activity and which gives a kind of freedom. When we acknowledge our state before God and really look at ourselves we are freed from delusion, vanity and pride. It is a very liberating and positive. As a young child, I had a negative relationship with repentance. Now, it is one of my absolutely favorite things about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is so liberating to take upon his yoke. Link to comment
Calm Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 A friend of mine happened to post this quote before hearing of Tutu’s death today (obviously edited it after hearing). I thought of this thread when I read it with reconciliation being one of my steps of repentance. Quote A quote that moved me so much I used it in gospel doctrine class: From Desmond Tutu, Archbishop and chair over the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. He passed away today at 90. “Forgiving and being reconciled to our enemies or our loved ones are not about pretending that things are other than they are. It is not about patting one another on the back and turning a blind eye to the wrong. True reconciliation exposes the awfulness, the abuse, the hurt, the truth. It could even sometimes make things worse. It is a risky undertaking but in the end it is worthwhile, because in the end only an honest confrontation with reality can bring real healing. Superficial reconciliation can bring only superficial healing.” (TRC in South Africa is not beyond reproach, nor is Tutu. But we celebrate net goods when we find them). 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 God can have my sins when I am done playing with them. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post poptart Posted December 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2021 Big mistake a lot of Protestants make, you can sin boldly and do whatever, wrong. You still have to live a good life and do good, it's proof of your repentance. The best thing I ever heard on repentance was from a Jesuit. I asked him once what if I don't feel like repenting? His response was "God loves us but he really doesn't care about your feelings. You know the rules, you broke em. God knows it and so do you. Confess, repent and knock it off. " 5 Link to comment
Calm Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) On 12/27/2021 at 6:19 PM, poptart said: Big mistake a lot of Protestants make, you can sin boldly and do whatever, wrong. You still have to live a good life and do good, it's proof of your repentance. The best thing I ever heard on repentance was from a Jesuit. I asked him once what if I don't feel like repenting? His response was "God loves us but he really doesn't care about your feelings. You know the rules, you broke em. God knows it and so do you. Confess, repent and knock it off. " I think like any good parent God appreciates people’s feelings, but he doesn’t let them change the rules where that would invalidate the results. I think he is willing to adapt when it works, such as not requiring those who have never been taught the Laws to be judged by them, but rather they are judged by the law they have known, which means imo understood. Edited December 30, 2021 by Calm 1 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 On 12/24/2021 at 10:43 AM, Orthodox Christian said: Amazing isn't it? Amazing Grace! I find it hard listening to this hymn without getting all teary-eyed. 1 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 5 hours ago, Stargazer said: Amazing Grace! I find it hard listening to this hymn without getting all teary-eyed. Somthings just getcha. 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 I love CS Lewis' description of repentance: "Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off if He chose; it is simply the description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without [repenting], you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen." And Robert L. Millet in his book Jesus Christ, The Only Sure Foundation, says: "Repentance is more than embarrassment. It is more than remorse. Repentance is a change of heart, a change of mind, a new direction, a new way of thinking and viewing the world. Such a course is both God-ordained and God-assisted; we cannot do it completely on our own. Repentance is granted and available as a free gift to man through the Atonement; through the grace and goodness of Jesus Christ, men and women are not only entitled to repent but also enabled to do so." 3 Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 (edited) On 12/28/2021 at 1:19 AM, poptart said: Big mistake a lot of Protestants make, you can sin boldly and do whatever, wrong. You still have to live a good life and do good, it's proof of your repentance. The best thing I ever heard on repentance was from a Jesuit. I asked him once what if I don't feel like repenting? His response was "God loves us but he really doesn't care about your feelings. You know the rules, you broke em. God knows it and so do you. Confess, repent and knock it off. " I love this nutshell, albeit from a very legalistic pov, I still like its straight to the point approach. Edited December 30, 2021 by Orthodox Christian Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 For me as Orthodox repentence is lifelong, not because God keeps hitting us with our imperfections but because we of our own God given free will choose repeatedly to go our own way. Pride and vanity are two of the worst sins, but I read recently that our greatest sin is to ignore God, just cut Him out of your life, or never acknowledge Him in the first place. Through our Lord Jesus Christ's saving work we are reconciled, the way is once again open to commune with and be unified with God. Forgive me, I will often refer to things I have read, but I read a lot, and forget where I have seen something, so I may not give direct quotes when referring to written works. So, I read somewhere an Orthodox theologian, probably one of the Church Fathers, wrote that in Matthew 22 1-14, the wedding garment, refers to the image of God within us. Over time, since our baptism, through sin, that garment or image becomes soiled therfore we need to repent continuously to restore the image of God within us and from there to become His likeness. When we walk with God in repentence, His Grace restores through faith and repentence and forgiveness so that He can recognise Himself in us. We become His likeness, when He looks at us he sees himself, we are no longer ourselves but Christ who is within us. So, it is a lifelong work of faith and prayer and trust in God's Grace because He is the author and finisher of His work within us, with which we cooperate. Sorry if it is longwinded, but that is pretty much what repentence means to me. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 On 12/27/2021 at 7:19 PM, poptart said: “Confess, repent and knock it off. " Done, done, and awwwww, but I am having fun….. Link to comment
Olmec Donald Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said: We become His likeness, when He looks at us he sees himself, we are no longer ourselves but Christ who is within us. "Christ within us" is a concept I don't recall seeing taught within Mormonism. I'm curious about its origins within the Orthodox Church, does the concept have a basis in scripture? And feel free to elaborate as much as you want, I'd like to learn more about this. Apologies if I'm asking about something that should be obvious. Also anyone who would like to speak to this topic from an LDS or any other perspective, please do. Thanks! * * * * On the topic of repentance, in my (unfortunately disproportionately extensive) experience, changing one's behavior is extremely difficult without changing one's thoughts, since our thoughts produce our behavior. While we cannot directly control our subconscious mind (from which most of our behavior arises), ime we can slowly re-program our subconscious mind by deliberately and consistently inputting corrective thoughts. I went to Roman Catholic schools for a while and now in retrospect I see the repetition of particular memorized prayers as perhaps a way of reprogramming the subconscious mind (among other things). Edited December 30, 2021 by Olmec Donald Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 On 12/24/2021 at 8:15 AM, SkyRock said: As a young child, I had a negative relationship with repentance. Now, it is one of my absolutely favorite things about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is so liberating to take upon his yoke. +1 (Hurry up and get those 25 posts so I can upvotecha "fer rills," as we say here in Utah! ) Link to comment
Orthodox Christian Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said: Christ within us" is a concept I don't recall seeing taught within Mormonism Hi there, I don't know about Mormonism, but it is scriptural, but as I said in my post, I am rubbish at remembering where I read stuff, so if you give me a bit I will get back to you. Link to comment
Olmec Donald Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 18 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said: Hi there, I don't know about Mormonism, but it is scriptural, but as I said in my post, I am rubbish at remembering where I read stuff, so if you give me a bit I will get back to you. Thank you. I consulted the oracle (Google) and found multiple applicable scriptures from the 15th chapter of John and from various epistles of Paul. I'm still interested in your understanding of the concept of "Christ within us", and/or the Orthodox Church's teachings on the subject, IF you feel like it. But no hurry! Link to comment
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