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Police Chief for USU Police Warns Football Team re: Sex w "Mormon Women"


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7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As both a father to a college-student daughter and a member of the Church, I am concerned that Mr. Morris previously worked at BYU-Hawaii in law enforcement.  He seems to be partial, he seems to be presumptively in favor of athletes and presumptively skeptical about allegations of sexual assault.  

I am not oblivious to the possibility of false allegations of sexual assault.  However, Mr. Morris apparently handled that issue very poorly.  His remark elicited laughter/hollering from the fooball team.  Any time a law enforcement officer is talking to young men about sexual assault and they laugh and holler in response, those remarks deserve some reconsideration.

I am curious as to whether Mr. Morris made any mention of the consequences of actual sexual assault, as opposed to just warning the football players about the possibility of false allegations of assault.  After all, it may just be that the young woman, whether or not she is a Latter-day Saint, could very well be telling the truth when reporting an allegation of assault.  

This reminds me of a friend I had back when I myself was a student at Utah State 30 years ago.

A young lady I knew, who happened to be a member of the Church, confided in me that she had had sex with somebody and didn't know if it was rape or not. She felt really bad about it and felt victimized. What apparently happened is that she was alone with her boyfriend and things started to get hot and heavy. She wanted to play a bit but not go all the way. At multiple points in the evening she put the breaks on, he slowed down, and then things sped back up, and one thing led to another, and by the time the night was over she felt she had been pressured into doing something that she hadn't fully consented to. She had told him "no" multiple times throughout the night! But she stuck around and kept making out with him! The dynamics of such things makes me think that there could be an honest misunderstanding about whether or not consent had in fact been given.   

My point is that Mr. Morris's comments need to be kept in context. He wasn't telling the kids to go out and have sex with LDS girls because if a he-said/she-said disagreement ensued he would take the athlete's side. His words to the athletes were the exact opposite, in fact. He said if there is a dispute, “the cards are stacked against [the athlete] from the moment that happens.” His point was for the males to "make sure" sex is consensual, and to be extra careful about such things if the woman involved is LDS. That advice isn't awful.

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33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

This reminds me of a friend I had back when I myself was a student at Utah State 30 years ago.

A young lady I knew, who happened to be a member of the Church, confided in me that she had had sex with somebody and didn't know if it was rape or not. She felt really bad about it and felt victimized.  What apparently happened is that she was alone with her boyfriend and things started to get hot and heavy. She wanted to play a bit but not go all the way. At multiple points in the evening she put the breaks on, he slowed down, and then things sped back up, and one thing led to another, and by the time the night was over she felt she had been pressured into doing something that she hadn't fully consented to.  She had told him "no" multiple times throughout the night! But she stuck around and kept making out with him! The dynamics of such things makes me think that there could be an honest misunderstanding about whether or not consent had in fact been given.

Not an uncommon story, this.

And a pretty good secular reason to obey the Law of Chastity.

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

My point is that Mr. Morris's comments need to be kept in context.

I agree.  I think it would be helpful if the recording were released.

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

He wasn't telling the kids to go out and have sex with LDS girls because if a he-said/she-said disagreement ensued he would take the athlete's side.

Nobody would say that overtly.  

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

His words to the athletes were the exact opposite, in fact. He said if there is a dispute, “the cards are stacked against [the athlete] from the moment that happens.”

Not the "exact opposite," I think.  He was presuming consensual sex.  He was presuming dishonesty by the girl (and, ipso facto, the innocence of the football player).

Don't get me wrong.  I think the risk of false allegations of sexual assault is real.  It's a risk inherent in the college sex scene.  But then, so is the risk of contracting (or passingon) a sexually transmitted infection.  So is the risk of getting the girl pregnant.  So is the risk of, as you put it, "an honest misunderstanding."  So is the risk of, well, actual sexual assault (whether deliberate or through impaired judgment brought about by drugs/alcohol).

All of these are real and legitimate risks.  But only one of them necessarily contemplates the girl being dishonest, and that is the one that the police chief talked about, and elicited laughing/hollering in the process.

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

His point was for the males to "make sure" sex is consensual, and to be extra careful about such things if the woman involved is LDS. That advice isn't awful.

That's quite possible.  But I think it could have been handled in a different and better way.

Thanks,

-Smac

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18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

If my daughter were a student at USU, and if she were to report an allegation of sexual assault, I would be pretty concerned about the ability of the USU police to fairly and impartially investigate the matter.  This is due to both USU's ongoing Title IX issues, and the attitude of the administration, and the attitude of the police chief.

Thanks,

-Smac

If I was a student there I would feel incredibly uncomfortable in the police chief or any other officers' presence.  

I'm hoping that someone in that meeting turned in the recording of him because they realized how inappropriate what he was saying was.

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16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It wouldn't be a big deal except that LDS girls at his school depend on him to be fair and impartial when they come to his station reporting a crime.  

First off, you're right (as is @smac97's followup to you). You concerns stand on their own.

But here's the larger thing. Police spokesbots make questionable and false statements every day (eg: kids are at meaningful risk of stranger kidnapping, cops get poisoned from casually touching fentanyl), typically to generate FUD and keep the public needlessly concerned.  99.9% of the time, their crap gets parroted by press w/o any vetting and accepted by the public w/o question.

If we (society) are going to finally start vetting public police statements before amplifying them - as a matter of course - well that would be truly awesome. If we're not, cherry picking one outrageous thing or two while leaving the endless FUD untouched is kind of depressing.

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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm less concerned with statements made to the public, which can then be vetted in some ways by anyone who wants to do so, than statements made behind closed doors that the cops would not want the public to know about.

Especially when those statements are to a group of men about rape which slanders a specific group of women the cops have some authority over.

Again you aren't wrong but the path to this kind of broken thinking is to let the rest of it go unchallenged.

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6 minutes ago, Emily said:

Should have just flat out told them to keep their mitts off the Mormon girls unless they are married to one, because that's how God likes it. Enough said.

Um. No. That’d be mixing religion in the affairs of the state and the police department ought to remain secular in its reasoning to the public.

Keep ‘your mitts off Mormon girls’ unless the girls (Mormon or otherwise) can and do consent to having sex with you. Period.

It’s not the purview of the police dept to declare the existence of any deity, let alone what a hypothetical deity wants.


  
 

 

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I wonder if the Chief has any stats to back up his opinion or even a few anecdotal situations. 

An accusation of sexual assault is extremely serious and even if proven false , will taint the accused for life

The sexual assault victim will carry the damage for life as well. 

The problem is , unless there were witnesses or good physical evidence , conviction will be difficult. 

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Best research so far Imo:

Quote

between 2 percent and 10 percent. The following studies support these findings:

A multi-site study of eight U.S. communities including 2,059 cases of sexual assault found a 7.1 percent rate of false reports (Lonsway, Archambault, & Lisak, 2009).

 A study of 136 sexual assault cases in Boston from 1998-2007 found a 5.9 percent rate
of false reports (Lisak et al., 2010).

Using qualitative and quantitative analysis, researchers studied 812 reports of sexual assault from 2000-2003 and found a 2.1 percent rate of false reports (Heenan
& Murray 2006).

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

There are two patterns for false reporting, Will look for those later though

Must sleep

Edited by Calm
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14 hours ago, bluebell said:

If that was his point he didn't make it very well.  No where did he say to be very careful it's consensual. 

I disagree. The very first sentence of the Tribune article says, "the police chief for Utah State University told each young man to make sure that when he has sex that it’s consensual — especially if he’s with a Latter-day Saint woman.

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

He told them it won't matter how consensual it is, she's going to accuse them of rape regardless. 

It's horrible that he told these men that if an LDS girl has premarital sex that she will tell her bishop it was rape so she won't feel guilty.  That's despicable.  

There is a cultural divide between the LDS world and much of the non-LDS world. I believe Mr. Morris (or is it Brother Morris?) was emphasizing this point to encourage them to steer away from LDS girls when pursuing their romantic interests. 

I can understand why an LDS woman wouldn't want to be stereotyped this way, but if if your daughter was at Utah State, would you discourage her from dating non-Mormon football players? If so, you shouldn't be that upset that non-Mormon football players are being discouraged from pursuing sexual relationships with LDS women.  

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14 hours ago, bluebell said:

It wouldn't be a big deal except that LDS girls at his school depend on him to be fair and impartial when they come to his station reporting a crime.  

By the same token, people being accused of a crime have the right to a fair and impartial investigation too, not to mention legal innocence until proven guilty.

Remember the chief also said if a football player is accused of assault, regardless of the facts of what really happened, “the cards are stacked against" the accused. 

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12 hours ago, bluebell said:

Who is saying to let the rest go unchallenged?

I'm not singling anyone out or saying this is someone's intent - certainly not yours.  I'm saying this is what we do.

I appreciate the space to rant. I'll let the focus return now.

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