smac97 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Here: Quote Juhana Pohjola wouldn’t be cast to play his own part if Hollywood made a movie about a bishop put on trial for his faith. The Finnish pastor has inherited a place in the church of Martin Luther, but it appears none of Luther’s pugnacity or vitriol. In person, Pohjola, 49, is forthright but unassuming, and gentle. Stereotypically, the Finn is thin and tall. He often pauses while speaking to carefully consider his next words. He listens attentively to others with far less impressive resumes. In more than two decades as a pastor, Pohjola has ministered to congregations as small as 30. He has spent his life building a network of faithful churches across Finland, many of which started with a few people gathered for prayer, Bible study, hymn-singing—and communion, if they can get a pastor. In an in-person interview with The Federalist, Pohjola urged fellow Christian leaders to be willing to seek out “one lost sheep” instead of crowds and acclaim. This is the man who appears to be the first in the post-Soviet Union West to be brought up on criminal charges for preaching the Christian message as it has been established for thousands of years. Also charged in the case that goes to trial on January 24 is Pohjola’s fellow Lutheran and a Finnish member of Parliament, Paivi Rasanen. Rasanen’s alleged crimes in a country that claims to guarantee freedom of speech and religion include tweeting a picture of a Bible verse. Potential penalties if they are convicted include fines and up to two years in prison. As I read this I thought "I bet it's a charge of 'hate speech' pertaining to sexual conduct." I was right: Quote Finnish Authorities: The Bible Is Hate Speech Rasanen and Pohjola are being charged with “hate speech” for respectively writing and publishing a 24-page 2004 booklet that explains basic Christian theology about sex and marriage, which reserves sex exclusively for within marriage, which can only consist of one man and one woman, for life. The Finnish prosecutor claims centuries-old Christian teachings about sex “incite hatred” and violate legal preferences for government-privileged identity groups. Writer Rod Dreher pointed out the witch hunt nature of this prosecution: “Räsänen wrote that pamphlet seven years before LGBT was added to the national hate-speech law as a protected class. She was investigated once before for the pamphlet, and cleared — but now she’s going to undergo another interrogation.” From the Dreher article: Quote ROD DREHER: You were interrogated for four hours by the police for things you have written about Christianity and homosexuality. What did they want to know? PÄIVI RÄSÄNEN: There are two separate police investigations, although they both have to do with freedom of religion and free speech. In both cases, the criminal offense I am suspected of is agitation against an ethnic group. The background of the first case is this: I was shocked when I heard that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, which I am a member of, announced its official affiliation to Helsinki LGBT Pride 2019. In June, I decided to write a tweet where I asked that how can the church’s doctrinal foundation, the Bible, be compatible with the lifting up of shame and sin as a subject of pride? The police started a criminal investigation about this tweet in August. I was then summoned to a police interrogation that was conducted November 1 at the Pasila Police Station, Helsinki. I was interrogated for almost four hours concerning this tweet. The police asked me if I agree to remove the tweet within two weeks. I answered no. I was asked about the contents of the Letter to the Romans and what I meant by saying that practicing homosexuality is a sin and a shame. I answered that all of us are sinners, but the sinfulness of practicing homosexuality is nowadays denied. The other police investigation has to do with a pamphlet I wrote 15 years ago. The investigation started in August this year. I have not yet been summoned to the interrogation concerning the pamphlet, but I have understood that it is likely to take place in December. The content of the pamphlet is quite the same as my tweet’s. ... RD: Is it effectively against the law in Finland to speak about basic Christian beliefs concerning homosexuality? PR: The law does not prohibit this, and it is legal to speak and preach about what the Bible teaches. Freedom of religion is strongly guaranteed both in our Constitution and in the International Human Rights Treaties. However, more and more so, it seems to be that expressing opinions relating to, for example, marriage belonging between one man and one woman, or the sinfulness of homosexual acts, is politically incorrect, subject to silencing, and frowned upon. My case is a precedent. The Bible is a totally legal book and our church’s doctrinal foundation, according to our law. Back to the first article: Quote Rasanen and Pohjola both have adamantly affirmed “the divinely given dignity, value, and human rights of all, including all who identify with the LGBTQ community.” Christian theology teaches that all human beings are precious, as all are made in God’s image and offered eternal life through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And yet they are still criminally charged for their beliefs. Quote In advance of the trial, Rasanen and Pohjola have been interrogated by police for hours about their theology. Pohjola told me in the interrogation police treated Christian beliefs as thought crimes. In a statement, Rasanen noted that the police publicly admitted their interpretation of Finland’s law would make publishing the Bible a hate crime. Sadly, I think there are elements of society in the U.S. that would also want to do this. "Hate crime" legislation is, I think, a bad idea. It's too susceptible to misuse. Quote “It is impossible for me to think that the classical Christian views and the doctrine of the majority of denominations would become illegal. The question here is about the core of Christian faith; how a person gets saved into unity with God and into everlasting life though the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus. Therefore, it is crucial to also talk about the nature of sin,” Rasanen told Dreher. “As we are living in a democratic country, we must be able to disagree and express our disagreement. We have to be able to cope with speech that we feel insults our feelings. Many questions are so debatable and contradictory that we have to have the possibility of discussing. Otherwise the development is towards a totalitarian system, with only one correct view.” Again, some are not interested in discussion or debate. They just want to punish and silence, and to use the force of secular law to do so. Quote Major International Implications Humans rights lawyer Paul Coleman, who spoke to The Federalist from his Alliance Defending Freedom International office in Vienna, Austria, says Pohjola and Rasanen’s cases are a “canary in the coalmine” for freedom of speech across the West. ... “Although all European countries have these hate speech laws, and these hate speech laws are increasingly being used against citizens for things that they say, this is the first time we’ve really seen Christians face criminal prosecution for explaining their biblical views,” Coleman said. “…It’s unprecedented. We’ve not seen attacks on free speech on this level in Europe, and that’s why they are extremely important cases, not just for the people of Finland and Paivi Rasanen and the bishop themselves, but for all of Europe. If this is upheld in one jurisdiction, we will no doubt see it in other jurisdictions as well.” Including in some states in the U.S., I think. I am grateful to live in the United States, and to have the ability to contest such things. Thanks, -Smac 2 Link to comment
Popular Post california boy Posted November 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2021 Excuse me if I am a bit skeptical of how a far right wing web site presents what is going on. It will be interesting to see exactly what the courts charge him with and what they say the basis of the court case is. Because not everything is adding up, since it is not against the law to speak up against gay issues. I think I will wait for more information before I get outraged over denial of religious rights until I can see exactly what this case is about. 9 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. Link to comment
Popular Post smac97 Posted November 23, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: Excuse me if I am a bit skeptical of how a far right wing web site presents what is going on. The article provides a number of links. But sure, you can summarily dismiss the entirety of the article without giving it a fair hearing. Have at it. Imagine if I immediately discounted an article solely because the author was gay. If I implied that this worldview renders its adherents inherently untrustworthy and dishonest. Meanwhile, let's see how a "gay" website treats this story: Quote Päivi Räsänen, a seventh-term member of the Finnish parliament and ex-chair of the Christian Democrats, was charged in April with three charges of incitement against a minority group for harmful statements she made about the LGBT+ community. Huh. So quoting the Bible causes "harm" to a "community." Quote Räsänen participated in Masked Singer Suomi in September as the Jaguar, with her casting drawing widespread criticism, including from one of the show’s judges. Judge Christoffer Strandberg wrote on Instagram: “The situation was personally very strange, as it undeniably felt a little strange to applaud and cheer for someone who has been at war with the rights of people like me for decades.” He said Räsänen has been “most public about her statements regarding sexual minorities” and “doesn’t regret a single deeply offensive, delusional word”. While Strandberg didn’t take a stance on the “suspicion of the crime itself”, he said it’s “high time that hate speech is dealt with properly”. The word "properly" here has a distinctily chilling ring to it. Quote “I do not believe in a cancel culture, I believe in freedom of speech and I defend the right to disagree,” Strandberg said. “But because even in Finland today you have to face bullying, discrimination, intimidation, starvation and violence if you represent a sexual minority, I want to say that words, deeds and choices are very important.” Nothing Räsänen can reasonably be construed as causing or endorsing "bullying, discrimination, intimidation, starvation and violence." Mr. "I believe in freedom of speech and the right to disagree" Strandberg sure seems to not believe in these things when he dislikes the speech and disagreement, since he is calling on the government to "properly" address Räsänen "speech." The article goes on to embrace the irony even further: Quote Journalist and influencer Mona Bling also called out the Masked Singer Suomi for including Räsänen on the programme. “Why does the Finnish media constantly give space to people who trample on human rights?” she wrote on Twitter. “Didn’t anyone think that Päivi Räsänen, who has been charged with incitement against a group of people, does not fit into the program of the whole family?” Right. Nothing says "I oppose the trampling of human rights" like siding with the government for punishing speech and religious belief. Quote Finland’s prosecutor general filed three charges of incitement against a minority group against Päivi Räsänen over statements she made regarding the gay community. Räsänen is a trained medical doctor and MP and previously held the office of minister of the interior of Finland between 2011 to 2015. Finland’s attorney general believed Räsänen’s comments “are likely to cause intolerance, contempt and hatred towards homosexuals”, according to a press release from the Prosecutor General’s office. The office said her statements “violate the equality and dignity of homosexuals so they transcend the boundaries of freedom of speech and religion”. One charge concerned Räsänen’s writings where she claimed that “gay relationship challenge the Christian conception of man” which were later published on the websites of the Luther Foundation Finland and the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland. The Prosecutor General’s office said that Räsänen presented “derogatory opinions and information about homosexuals” and claimed that “homosexuality is a scientifically proven disorder of psychosexual development”. “In addition, Räsänen has published on her Twitter and Instagram account and Facebook page an opinion that denigrates homosexuals, according to which homosexuality is a shame and a sin,” the office said. According to the Prosecutor General, Räsänen also made “derogatory statements about homosexuals” on a Yle Puhe radio programme episode titled “What did Jesus think about gays?” “In it, Räsänen has said that if homosexuality is genetic, then it is a genetic degeneration and a genetic gene that causes disease,” a press release detailed. “In Räsänen’s view, homosexuals are also not created by God like heterosexuals.” I'm not sure if these characterizations are accurate. If they are, I don't agree with some of them. But I would never endorse the government using its authority to criminally punish her for saying them. Quote Räsänen announced on her website that the “main hearing” of the charges brought against her by the prosecutor general will take place on 24 January. She said the “process” of bringing charges against her started “more than two years ago” when she “posted a tweet addressing a question to the leadership of my church that had signed up to support Pride”. The “main content” of her post was a “screenshot of verses 24-27 from the book of Romans chapter 1 from the New Testament”. The two other charges concerned a “pamphlet I had written in 2004” which said “Male and female, He created them” and statements she made on a talk show in December 2019. “In all the charges, I deny any wrongdoing,” she said. “My writings and statements under investigation are linked to the Bible’s teachings on marriage, living as a man and a woman, as well as the Apostle Paul’s teaching on homosexual acts as sin and shame.” Pretty chilling that her government is in the business of "investigating" her religious writings. 1 hour ago, california boy said: It will be interesting to see exactly what the courts charge him with and what they say the basis of the court case is. Gotta love how some folks so readily embrace censorship and punitive measures by government as soon as such things useful for silencing and/or punishing speech and thoughts they dislike. "Live and let live" my foot. Anyhoo, per this article she is charged with "three counts of ethnic agitation over online statements about homosexuals": Quote The prosecutor determined that the statements disparage and discriminate against homosexuals, violate their equality rights and human dignity, and foment intolerance, defamation and hatred. The statements thus breach the limits of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, according to a press release from the Office of the Prosecutor General. The statements. She's being criminally charged for giving voice to thoughts. The press release is in Finnish, but the article continues: Quote One of the statements was published on the website of the Luther Foundation of Finland and the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland. The two others charges, in turn, are related to statements made by the seasoned lawmaker on social media and YLE Puhe. The Prosecutor General opted not to charge her with another count of ethnic agitation for describing homosexuality as a sexual slant on Yökylä, a show on MTV. While the prosecutor ruled that the remark was disparaging, it was deemed to not warrant prosecution. Räsänen on Thursday said she is surprised, if not shocked, by the decision to bring charges. “I don’t think I’ve been guilty of threatening, slandering of disparaging any population group. These [statements] are all about what the Bible teaches about marriage and sexuality,” she responded in a public statement. There are actually people who are okay with this lady being criminally charged and punished for daring to say what she thinks. Quote The case, she analysed, boils down to whether expressing and supporting convictions that are based on teachings of the Bible and Christianity is allowed in Finland. She underscored that she is supportive of the human dignity and human rights of homosexuals and urged also others to exercise their freedom of speech and religion. It's sad that exercising these rights can incur the real risk of being criminally charged and convicted. It's further sad that there are people who are quite happy to see this sort of thing happen. 1 hour ago, california boy said: Because not everything is adding up, Well, you could read up more. 1 hour ago, california boy said: since it is not against the law to speak up against gay issues. Except . . . when it is. Here's an article from the Washington Times: Quote Christian member of Finnish Parliament faces prison for questioning support of gay pride parade Yeah, she definitely deserves criminal punishment and incarceration by the state for doing that. Quote A member of Finland’s Parliament is facing two years in prison for tweeting a message questioning the alignment of her church with a gay pride parade and for other statements expressing what she said is the Bible’s view on homosexuality. Dr. Päivi Räsänen, a physician and the country’s former interior minister, faces a potential November trial for “incitement against [an] ethnic group,” as Finnish Prosecutor General Raija Toiviainen stated in an April announcement. Ms. Toiviainen said Dr. Räsänen “violate[d] homosexuals’ equality and human dignity” by posting verses online from the New Testament book of Romans; publishing a 2004 pamphlet calling homosexuality “a scientifically proven psychosexual developmental disorder”; and speaking about homosexuality on a Finnish radio program. Prison time for . . . quoting Romans, publicly "speaking about homosexuality" and publishing a pamphlet seven years before the law was changed to include gays as a "protected class." Yeah, there's nothing for Christians to worry about. Until there is. Then the other shoe falls and the narrative becomes "Well, you had it coming anyway." "Live and let live" my foot. More: Quote “I am ready to defend free speech and freedom of religion as far as needed,” Dr. Räsänen said via email. “The purpose for my tweet was in no way to insult sexual minorities,” she said. “My criticism was aimed at the leadership of the church and their decision regarding Helsinki Pride. A citizen made a criminal complaint against me and the police started a criminal investigation about the tweet.” It is disconcerting that there are people who are actually supportive of this sort of the government punishing this sort of thing. Quote In May, a group of 10 American academics and human rights advocates published an open letter calling on the Biden administration to sanction the Finnish prosecutor under the Global Magnitsky Act, a law allowing the U.S. to punish “serious” human rights abuses. I guess, for some, Christians aren't deserving of protection from "human rights abuses." Quote Dr. Räsänen said additional criminal complaints were brought against her, the Finnish Luther Foundation and the Rev. Juhana Pohjola, who is now bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese. ... More than imprisonment, Dr. Räsänen said she feared an order to remove her social media postings or a ban on publishing her pamphlet about homosexuality. “This might open up an avenue leading to further publication bans and modern book burnings,” she said. She's not wrong to be concerned about such things. But she's a Christian who dares to say what she things, so for some she deserves whatever punishment she gets. Quote Arielle del Turco, assistant director of the Family Research Council’s Center for Religious Liberty, told The Washington Times the prosecution of Dr. Räsänen “is extremely concerning.” Ms. del Turco expressed dismay “that a Finnish member of Parliament can be charged for simply expressing a religious belief. The world is going to watch this case; they’re watching what’s going to happen and unfold in Finland. … Instead of policing religious expression, the Finnish government should be much more concerned with protecting basic freedoms.” There are some who genuinely don't want Christians to have and enjoy those "basic freedoms." Quote While she obviously hopes to win, Dr. Räsänen said she’s prepared for a negative outcome. “I think this whole chain of events is part of my calling as a Christian influencer,” Dr. Räsänen said. “A conviction based on the Christian faith is more than a [surface] opinion. The early Christians did not renounce their faith in the lion’s dens. Why should I renounce my faith in the courtrooms?” I admire her fortitude. She's willing to go to prison to defend her rights of speech and religion. See also here: U.S. academics: Sanction Finnish prosecutor for charging Christians opposing gay marriage Quote Ten academics and human rights advocates, including a former chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, called on the Biden administration Friday to sanction Finland’s top prosecutor after she filed charges against Christians who declared what they believe the Bible says about homosexuality. Finnish Prosecutor General Raija Toiviainen has committed “serious human rights abuses” by filing criminal charges against Päivi Räsänen, a former interior minister and current member of Parliament, and the Rev. Juhana Pohjola, bishop-elect of Finland’s Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese, the open letter from the group says. The letter calls on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom to seek federal sanctions on Ms. Toiviainen, including denial of entry to the United States by Secretary of State Antony Blinken under Section 7031(c), and for Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen to impose financial sanctions on Ms. Toiviainen under the Global Magnitsky Act, which can impose penalties for “serious” human rights abuses. ... The open letter, published at the RealClear Politics website, says the prosecutions send “an unmistakable message to Finns of every rank and station: no one who holds to the traditional teachings of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and several other religions on questions of marriage and sexual morality will be safe from state harassment should they, like Bishop Pohjola and Dr. Räsänen, express their moral and religious convictions.” The letter cites earlier U.S. sanctions such as a December 2020 action against Chief Huang Yuanxiong of the Xiamen Public Security Bureau Wucun Police Station in China for abusing human rights in persecuting Falun Gong practitioners. The authors said, “Prosecutor General Toiviainen’s status as a European official must not shield her from sanctions for her abuse of traditionalist Christians in Finland.” A link to the open letter is here, and is very much worth a read (how often do American academics publicly defend religious liberty?). Some key bits: Quote To the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom Dear Chair Bhargava, Vice Chair Perkins, and Commissioners Bauer, Carr, Davie, Maenza, Moore, and Turkel: The Prosecutor General of Finland has undertaken criminal prosecutions that will compel Finland’s clergy and lay religious believers to choose between prison and abandoning teachings of their various faiths. First, Prosecutor General Raija Toiviainen has charged Dr. Päivi Räsänen, a Member of the Finland’s Parliament and former Finnish Minister of the Interior, with three counts of “ethnic agitation” for peacefully expressing her views on marriage and sexuality. The charges against Dr. Räsänen stem from her authorship of a 2004 booklet entitled, Male and Female He Created Them: Homosexual Relationships Challenge the Christian Concept of Humanity, published by the Luther Foundation. In the booklet, Dr. Räsänen argues that homosexual activity should be recognized by the church as sinful based on the teachings of the Hebrew Bible and Christian scripture. Hmm. Quote Second, the Prosecutor General has charged the Bishop-Elect of the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland, Rev. Dr. Juhana Pohjola, with one count of ethnic agitation for publishing Dr. Räsänen’s booklet. Quoting Romans = "ethnic agitation." Huh. Quote The Prosecutor General’s pursuit of these charges against a prominent legislator and bishop sends an unmistakable message to Finns of every rank and station: no one who holds to the traditional teachings of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and several other religions on questions of marriage and sexual morality will be safe from state harassment should they, like Bishop Pohjola and Dr. Räsänen, express their moral and religious convictions. It sure does send that message. And there are people who are quite happy with that message. Quote These prosecutions constitute serious human rights abuses. They violate Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Article 10 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, all of which affirm the right of every human “to manifest his religion or belief in teaching.” They likewise violate multiple provisions of the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief, including its affirmation of the right “[t]o write, issue and disseminate relevant publications” expressing one’s religious beliefs. For some, a "universal declaration" doesn't necessarily apply to Christians who dare to say what they think. For some, it is an acceptable use of governmental power to criminally punish Christians who say what they think. Quote These prosecutions cannot be understood as mundane applications of a European-style “hate speech” law. No reasonable balance of the goods of public order, civil equality, and religious liberty can ever support this suppression of the right to believe and express one’s beliefs. The prosecutions are straightforward acts of oppression. For some, the punitive use of governmental power to suppress "the right to believe and express one's beliefs" is a good thing. From the Jerusalem Post: Finnish Evangelical pastor, MP under investigation over anti-LGBTQ booklet Quote The head of an Evangelical Lutheran diocese in Finland and a member of the Finnish parliament could face criminal charges after police began investigating them last week regarding the publication and distribution of an anti-LGBTQ booklet, Evangelical Focus reported. The preliminary investigation into the cases focuses on Finnish MP Päivi Räsänen – author of the 24-page booklet titled Male and Female He Created Them – Homosexual relationships challenge the Christian concept of humanity, which was published in 2004 – and Juaha Pohjola – dean of the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland, as well as the booklet's publisher. Helsinki Police questioned them for five hours as part of the investigation. ... After meeting with the police, Pohjola published a statement on the diocese's website, saying that he admits he is responsible for publishing and distributing the booklet, as he is the editor-in-chief of the publishing house. "I denied, however, being guilty of the crime of ethnic agitation," he added. "In my view, Mrs. Räsänen's text is not defamatory or insulting to homosexuals. In my answers, I showed that the booklet teaches in line with Christian anthropology that every person is precious as being created in the image of God, regardless of sexual orientation," he continued. However, Pohjola said that the LGBTQ lifestyle "is contrary to God's order of creation and a transgression against His will. If one is not allowed to teach this publicly, the message of sin and grace will be left without a foundation, and freedom of religion will decline." According to the diocese's website, Pohjola is "under suspicion for distributing this material to the public and for keeping this material available online" and is suspected of having incited hatred. Imagine "inciting hatred" as a brickbat. A blunt instrument in the hands of government. It can be used against virtually anyone for virtually anything they do or say. There are some who are apparently quite happy to let the government use this weapon to punish divergent points of view. I hope these folks reconsider that. Quote Speaking to Evangelical Focus in November 2019 regarding the initial controversy of the police investigation, Räsänen said that “It is difficult to understand what is now happening in my home country.” Sage words. I think it's reasonable to be concerned that such things can happen, or are happening, in places outside of Finland as well. 1 hour ago, california boy said: I think I will wait for more information before I get outraged over denial of religious rights until I can see exactly what this case is about. There's nothing keeping you from reading up about this. It took me two minutes to find the above items. Thanks, -Smac Edited November 23, 2021 by smac97 6 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) My sense is Finland isn't looking for outside advice on how to run their legal system. I could imagine that people in Finland could get upset about legal decisions that have happened in the US. Is the US legal system so fragile that they are amenable from a country that, my guess, is most US citizens couldn't even find on a map? Edited November 23, 2021 by Duncan Link to comment
smac97 Posted November 23, 2021 Author Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: My sense is Finland isn't looking for outside advice on how to run their legal system. Plenty of outsiders comment about American political and legal issues. For that matter, the Church isn't looking for outside advice as to how to run its programs, formulate and teach its doctrines, etc., and yet plenty of people voice their opinions about such things anyway. 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: I could imagine that people in Finland could get upset about legal decisions that have happened in the US. Is the US legal system so fragile that they are amenable from a country that, my guess, is most US citizens couldn't even find on a map? Are you familiar with the "canary in a coalmine" metaphor? Thanks, -Smac Edited November 23, 2021 by smac97 4 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Plenty of outsiders comment about American political and legal issues. For that matter, the Church isn't looking for outside advice as to how to run its programs, formulate and teach its doctrines, etc., and yet plenty of people voice their opinions about such things anyway. Are you familiar with the "canary in a coalmine" metaphor? Thanks, -Smac and you don't care about their comments so why care now? The US has enough legal problems to worry about, solve those first We aren't talking about the church, but the Finnish Legal system I am familiar with the "canary in a coalmine" metaphor, worry about your own canaries and coalmines- Are you familiar with the "whited sepulchres" metaphor? why does it bother you that other legal minds view law differently then you? Edited November 24, 2021 by Duncan 3 Link to comment
JustAnAustralian Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) We've seen similar over here. Not to the level of a lawsuit just for bible verses, but we've seen an Australian Catholic Archbishop be the subject of an antidiscrimination lawsuit for distributing a booklet (relating to same-sex marriage) created by the "Australian Catholic Bishops Conference" in Catholic schools. It ended up being dropped because neither side would give in and the person that lodged the lawsuit didn't want it drawn out for years. Then of course there was the whole Israel Folau incident which is still regularly referred to. (Rugby player paraphrased romans on twitter, got fired, took them to court) Edited November 24, 2021 by JustAnAustralian 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, smac97 said: The article provides a number of links. But sure, you can summarily dismiss the entirety of the article without giving it a fair hearing. Have at it. Imagine if I immediately discounted an article solely because the author was gay. If I implied that this worldview renders its adherents inherently untrustworthy and dishonest. Meanwhile, let's see how a "gay" website treats this story: Huh. So quoting the Bible causes "harm" to a "community." The word "properly" here has a distinctily chilling ring to it. Nothing Räsänen can reasonably be construed as causing or endorsing "bullying, discrimination, intimidation, starvation and violence." Mr. "I believe in freedom of speech and the right to disagree" Strandberg sure seems to not believe in these things when he dislikes the speech and disagreement, since he is calling on the government to "properly" address Räsänen "speech." The article goes on to embrace the irony even further: Right. Nothing says "I oppose the trampling of human rights" like siding with the government for punishing speech and religious belief. I'm not sure if these characterizations are accurate. If they are, I don't agree with some of them. But I would never endorse the government using its authority to criminally punish her for saying them. Pretty chilling that her government is in the business of "investigating" her religious writings. Gotta love how some folks so readily embrace censorship and punitive measures by government as soon as such things useful for silencing and/or punishing speech and thoughts they dislike. "Live and let live" my foot. Anyhoo, per this article she is charged with "three counts of ethnic agitation over online statements about homosexuals": The statements. She's being criminally charged for giving voice to thoughts. The press release is in Finnish, but the article continues: There are actually people who are okay with this lady being criminally charged and punished for daring to say what she thinks. It's sad that exercising these rights can incur the real risk of being criminally charged and convicted. It's further sad that there are people who are quite happy to see this sort of thing happen. Well, you could read up more. Except . . . when it is. Here's an article from the Washington Times: Yeah, she definitely deserves criminal punishment and incarceration by the state for doing that. Prison time for . . . quoting Romans, publicly "speaking about homosexuality" and publishing a pamphlet seven years before the law was changed to include gays as a "protected class." Yeah, there's nothing for Christians to worry about. Until there is. Then the other shoe falls and the narrative becomes "Well, you had it coming anyway." "Live and let live" my foot. More: It is disconcerting that there are people who are actually supportive of this sort of the government punishing this sort of thing. I guess, for some, Christians aren't deserving of protection from "human rights abuses." She's not wrong to be concerned about such things. But she's a Christian who dares to say what she things, so for some she deserves whatever punishment she gets. There are some who genuinely don't want Christians to have and enjoy those "basic freedoms." I admire her fortitude. She's willing to go to prison to defend her rights of speech and religion. See also here: U.S. academics: Sanction Finnish prosecutor for charging Christians opposing gay marriage A link to the open letter is here, and is very much worth a read (how often do American academics publicly defend religious liberty?). Some key bits: Hmm. Quoting Romans = "ethnic agitation." Huh. It sure does send that message. And there are people who are quite happy with that message. For some, a "universal declaration" doesn't necessarily apply to Christians who dare to say what they think. For some, it is an acceptable use of governmental power to criminally punish Christians who say what they think. For some, the punitive use of governmental power to suppress "the right to believe and express one's beliefs" is a good thing. From the Jerusalem Post: Finnish Evangelical pastor, MP under investigation over anti-LGBTQ booklet Imagine "inciting hatred" as a brickbat. A blunt instrument in the hands of government. It can be used against virtually anyone for virtually anything they do or say. There are some who are apparently quite happy to let the government use this weapon to punish divergent points of view. I hope these folks reconsider that. Sage words. I think it's reasonable to be concerned that such things can happen, or are happening, in places outside of Finland as well. There's nothing keeping you from reading up about this. It took me two minutes to find the above items. Thanks, -Smac You are obviously trying to get everyone worked up about this. But I am skeptical we know exactly what has been said and how it has been said. Let's say a minister starts screaming from the pulpit that black people are cursed by God and should not be allowed to be a part of society. There are plenty of scriptures the minister could use to support that point of view. And she could claim that she is doing "God's work". But if it is inciting people to do things to black people that really they have no business doing, then that could be crossing the line no matter how couched in scripture the statements are. This may be more about what the case is about. The question I would ask is, How many gays are in her congregation? If there are none, then why does she even have to bring up the "sin" of homosexuality to her congregation. Is she JUST trying to stir up hatred towards the LGBT community under the guise of religion? THIS is why I am not going to get all riled up about something that I honestly do not have enough information on. I don't know exactly what has been said or how it has been said. What I do know is that there are thousands of other ministers in Finland that evidently can talk about homosexuality without needing to take judicial action against them. There are plenty of things that we can all be outraged about on a daily basis when we actually don't know all the facts about. Too often we leap to outrage before knowing the actual facts. How about wait and see how the court case goes, and then get outraged if the court rules that what she has said has crossed the line from biblical teachings to hate speech? Besides all that, I know how you slice and dice things, taking things out of context, and making assumptions on things that I write until I barely recognize what I and others actually wrote. You are not really someone that I trust is telling the whole story of what is going on or what the real intent of what the person had to say. Edited November 24, 2021 by california boy 2 Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Duncan said: why does it bother you that other legal minds view law differently then you? Those "other legal minds" do not have merely an idle difference of taste from us. These differences of opinion, if reflected in the law, could have serious consequences. It entitles us to an opinion on them. At the risk of running afoul of the politics moratorium, northern Europe is often pushed as a model for US political action and philosophy to follow. If that model comes to contain laws like this as an attribute, then that is a problem and we should take note of it. 2 hours ago, Duncan said: Are you familiar with the "whited sepulchres" metaphor? That hardly applies. 3 Link to comment
rodheadlee Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. 🙄 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 27 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: Those "other legal minds" do not have merely an idle difference of taste from us. These differences of opinion, if reflected in the law, could have serious consequences. It entitles us to an opinion on them. At the risk of running afoul of the politics moratorium, northern Europe is often pushed as a model for US political action and philosophy to follow. If that model comes to contain laws like this as an attribute, then that is a problem and we should take note of it. That hardly applies. serious consequences-for them, unless Finnish law somehow applies to the US and vice versa It does apply Why is the US still attached to Northern Europe? Didn't you guys fight a war so that you wouldn't be? if you wanted out then be out. Not that other countries need your permission but their laws are their laws and if others disagree then they disagree. As I say are you guys so weak that your laws would be influenced by other countries? You had like 300 years since the Revolutionary War to get your own deal going, so when is that going to happen? 1 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. I recommend having a chat with the Guy who commissioned it. Maybe He forgot? 3 Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, Duncan said: Why is the US still attached to Northern Europe? Didn't you guys fight a war so that you wouldn't be? if you wanted out then be out. Not that other countries need your permission but their laws are their laws and if others disagree then they disagree. As I say are you guys so weak that your laws would be influenced by other countries? You had like 300 years since the Revolutionary War to get your own deal going, so when is that going to happen? The US is a major nation with continual interaction with the outside world. It is to be expected that we would be influenced ideologically and philosophically by goings-on in other nations. What you appear to expect from us is unreasonable in the extreme. You take considerable exception to our having opinions on what goes on in Finland. Are we not allowed to have opinions about right and wrong which are not constrained by national borders? Must our convictions end at the Rio Grande? And under what authority do you take exception to our opinions - while forbidding us to take exception to their actions? 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: The US is a major nation with continual interaction with the outside world. It is to be expected that we would be influenced ideologically and philosophically by goings-on in other nations. What you appear to expect from us is unreasonable in the extreme. You take considerable exception to our having opinions on what goes on in Finland. Are we not allowed to have opinions about right and wrong which are not constrained by national borders? Must our convictions end at the Rio Grande? And under what authority do you take exception to our opinions - while forbidding us to take exception to their actions? I think you overestimate your global importance in the making and administration of laws in other countries. I, like you and Smac have zero authority. I think it's stupid to worry about ANOTHER country's laws, of which NONE of us have any say as to what goes on. It's high ranking hypocrisy to think you should be the global boy scout and solving other countries' legal problems when you have your own going on. Why don't you worry about your own "dead man's bones" before you go painting someone else's sepulchres. I hate to tell you but people don't like Americans on a global scale. If you want to have an opinion about other countries' then they should have an opinion and sway with your country, but you guys don't have a squeeky clean record on listening to the wisdom of others. Link to comment
mgy401 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, Duncan said: I think you overestimate your global importance in the making and administration of laws in other countries. I, like you and Smac have zero authority. I think it's stupid to worry about ANOTHER country's laws, of which NONE of us have any say as to what goes on. It's high ranking hypocrisy to think you should be the global boy scout and solving other countries' legal problems when you have your own going on. Why don't you worry about your own "dead man's bones" before you go painting someone else's sepulchres. I hate to tell you but people don't like Americans on a global scale. If you want to have an opinion about other countries' then they should have an opinion and sway with your country, but you guys don't have a squeeky clean record on listening to the wisdom of others. Americans, having made a significant contribution to ending the Holocaust, think it is their eternal prerogative and destiny to stop human rights abuses anywhere they may occur. 1 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, mgy401 said: Americans, having made a significant contribution to ending the Holocaust, think it is their eternal prerogative and destiny to stop human rights abuses anywhere they may occur. And they had to be dragged into that one. On a global scale on human right abuses, homosexuality in Finland? I am going to throw it out there that gay people in Finland don't need Americans opinions to exercise their human right to their sexuality Link to comment
Calm Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Duncan said: hate to tell you but people don't like Americans on a global scale. I don’t remember specifics but it was usually about trade…pressure to change laws that protected Canadian groups iirc, but when I was living in Canada there were times I was embarrassed about the way some Americans thought they should have a right to make Canada live by the laws Americans gave to them. When in Russia in early 90s, there was a lot of disdain for the way Americans were sweeping in with all their money and resources and then demanding that the Russians use it according to how the Americans dictated. If you are giving money, you do have the.right to dictate how it is used, but to then get offended because others see such ‘aid’ as not being charitable so much, but more protecting selfinterest, trying to set it up so that benefits for yourself are top priority of another rather than them focusing on their own needs first… We have the right to be concern about how other countries’ laws might influence, it is a global world and there is an influence, but personal experience was the reverse was massively stronger the other way, the US influences laws, ideas etc elsewhere much mote than the reverse. Edited November 24, 2021 by Calm Link to comment
mgy401 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 48 minutes ago, Duncan said: And they had to be dragged into that one. On a global scale on human right abuses, homosexuality in Finland? Erm . . . free speech and free exercise of religion in Finland. 1 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Just now, mgy401 said: Erm . . . free speech and free exercise of religion in Finland. oh which, the US doesn't have that right, unless President of the US is somehow the Prime Minister of Finland as well? . We should change James 1:27 then to say "speak out against Finnish Homosexuality" Link to comment
mgy401 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Duncan said: oh which, the US doesn't have that right, unless President of the US is somehow the Prime Minister of Finland as well? Naturally. Just as the US doesn’t have the right to control what Germany does to Jews, or what China does to Uighurs, or what Iran does to gays, or how South Africa handles anti-apartheid advocates, or what Hungary or Poland do to illegal immigrants. But of course, that doesn’t prevent freedom-loving people anywhere and everywhere from pointing out troubling trends; especially those created and supported by emotionally-fragile jack-booted thugs who want to prosecute anyone who publicly disagrees with their life choices. Edited November 24, 2021 by mgy401 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mgy401 said: Naturally. Just as the US doesn’t have the right to control what Germany does to Jews, or what China does to Uighurs, or what Iran does to gays. But of course, that doesn’t prevent freedom-loving people anywhere and everywhere from pointing out troubling trends; especially those created and supported by emotionally-fragile jack-booted thugs who want to prosecute anyone who publicly disagrees with their life choices. yes, killing Jews is the same as a pastor in Finland. Talk about an "emotionally fragile jack booted thug", is that where the trend of US politics has gone? Who knew you and these others all of sudden care so much about gay people in Finland, Do you even know where Finland is? I have a solution why doesn't the US allow all the Finnish gay people to live in the US, that way all you so called "freedom loving" people can love them and take care of them and not feel threatened by a pastor in their home country. Would you help them move in to your city/town? Edited November 24, 2021 by Duncan Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I recommend having a chat with the Guy who commissioned it. Maybe He forgot? I don't know if that is true, honestly. I feel it's more a lot of different authors. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I don't know if that is true, honestly. I feel it's more a lot of different authors. I didn't write 'author' or 'authors'. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 52 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I didn't write 'author' or 'authors'. I know, I gathered that too late. But I can't believe that God believes, or accepts what a lot of men say in it. Link to comment
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