The LDS Church as a Percentage of Worldwide Christianity - Competition, Threat or ????

[MiserereNobis]

There have been many posts defending the wealth of the COJCOLDS. Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too? Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks. I’ll take the Sistine chapel over a percentage in McDonald’s any day. 

ETA: I reread this post and it is rather grumpy and sets up a me vs. you attitude. Sorry about that!

Edited November 15, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too?

It doesn't fuss me any.

Quote

Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks.

I suspect a very large part of the 'wealth' of the The Church of Jesus Christ is also in land and buildings.

Oh, and it looks like the Catholic Church has a stock portfolio as well, estimated to be worth $10 billion in 2013: 'It has holdings in such industries as banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction and real estate. It only invests in companies that operate according to Catholic morals. For example, it will not invest in a pharmaceutical company that produces birth control'.

Again, I see nothing wrong with any of that.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, 2BizE said:

How much money do you think the church has?

Much less that the Catholic Church. 

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

There have been many posts defending the wealth of the COJCOLDS. Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too? Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks. I’ll take the Sistine chapel over a percentage in McDonald’s any day. 

I don’t care how much money the Catholic Church has and I don’t care what it’s in. I was just responding to the claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the most money of all the churches.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

There have been many posts defending the wealth of the COJCOLDS. Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too? Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks. I’ll take the Sistine chapel over a percentage in McDonald’s any day. 

There is nothing inherently wrong in my view.  There is probably much art and heritage that survived because it was under the care of the RCC.  The only thing that would bother me as it would bother me to see it happening with the Restored Church and that would be acquiring money and possessions became the primary goal.

[poptart]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:38 AM, Calm said:

109 acres vs 10 acres, 400 AD vs 1850 AD (approx times they were building the Vatican vs the temple)…we have a way to go to catch up.

 

 

Does anyon know how to make images smaller on the board when copy pasting?

Something else to consider, Rome also took over management of a lot of the old pagan temples.  By the time Christianity became the official religion your average Roman was pagan in name only, while there was persecution the early church took over temples that were in sometimes iffy condition.  Not only did Rome end up managing the shell of the western empire, we can thank them for preserving and improving things.  People don't appreciate what was lost when Rome collapsed, we still can't replicate Roman cement (that I know of).  

This is the USA, especially now the culture is so far removed from old America and even more so from old world Christianity.  Something a member friend told me when I asked why Mormons don't have crosses on their buildings, the membership is the cross/crucifix, you are the proof of Christs sacrifice.  Your membership has outdone old guard Protestants for a while, now with infighting you can add Evangelicals to that list.  What's a well built building if the membership is rotten?  Plenty of beautiful churches out east that are in disrepair.  If anything, you can look at the example of others in this country like the Titanic, a great example of what not to do.  Unity is strength, unity is power.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by poptart

[poptart]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

There have been many posts defending the wealth of the COJCOLDS. Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too? Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks. I’ll take the Sistine chapel over a percentage in McDonald’s any day. 

Id wonder about that, in places like Germany they wield a lot of power.  They're one of the largest employers in the country and still have quite a bit of input in public life.  Im sure theres a lot the Vatican does with their finances we don't know about.  Tbh I'd rather both sides be well off, so far they've done some pretty neat things.  Holidays are almost here, LDS and Catholic Charities work quite well together.  Considering where bitter, ugly infighting has taken the USA id much rather see both sides be successful.  God created more than enough for everyone.  Just my thoughts.

[mfbukowski]

46 minutes ago, poptart said:

Id wonder about that, in places like Germany they wield a lot of power.  They're one of the largest employers in the country and still have quite a bit of input in public life.  Im sure theres a lot the Vatican does with their finances we don't know about.  Tbh I'd rather both sides be well off, so far they've done some pretty neat things.  Holidays are almost here, LDS and Catholic Charities work quite well together.  Considering where bitter, ugly infighting has taken the USA id much rather see both sides be successful.  God created more than enough for everyone.  Just my thoughts.

Do WASPS get to have money?

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

What both churches have in common is that all the wealth divided by the number of members isn’t really all that. 
 

Norway, for example, has a wealth fund of over a trillion dollars.  The population is less than six million. You do the math. 
 

Is LDS church  rich?  Yes, but it’s all relative. 

Relative to what?  A church that has maybe 6to 7 million active members world wide with an investment fund of $120 billion, who knows how much cash in the banks, other for profit businesses that make $$ and have going concern value as well as own other assets.  I bet of you add the land in that the Church owns it is worth well over $500 billion if not more.  That is a lot of assets and influence as compared to the size of the LDS membership.  Norway does not claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ unlike the Mormons and the Catholics.

[mrmarklin]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Relative to what?  A church that has maybe 6to 7 million active members world wide with an investment fund of $120 billion, who knows how much cash in the banks, other for profit businesses that make $$ and have going concern value as well as own other assets.  I bet of you add the land in that the Church owns it is worth well over $500 billion if not more.  That is a lot of assets and influence as compared to the size of the LDS membership.  Norway does not claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ unlike the Mormons and the Catholics.

You sound jealous. I don’t think either Norway or the LDS Church are going to give you any of their money. 

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

There have been many posts defending the wealth of the COJCOLDS. Is it ok that the Catholic Church has wealth, too? Our wealth is in art, architecture, land, history. Yours is in stocks. I’ll take the Sistine chapel over a percentage in McDonald’s any day. 

The Catholic church does not have other assets such as stock investments, cash, etc?  I highly doubt they don't.  Personally I don't think and Church claiming to be the Church of Jesus Christ should hoard massive wealth.  And a lot of your beautiful buildings, art, etc was built on the backs of many poor people who could not afford it. I understand in the modern worlds a large organization including a church's needs financial assets.  Probably to the tune of 3-5 years of operating costs is more than enough.  I don't know how the Catholic Church stands on the but the LDS Church has many more times that amount in just liquid assets alone. In fact they have enough in liquid assets to run the Church into perpetuity at current costs with only a modest return on their portfolio without ever taking in another dime from its members,

Edited November 15, 2021 by Teancum

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Much less that the Catholic Church. 

Are you sure?  How do you know this?  How about assets per capita?  And why the comparison?  Does the amount of wealth the Catholic church has have any bearing on what The Church of Jesus Christ should be doing?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Teancum

[Chum]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The Catholic church does not have other assets such as stock investments, cash, etc.  I highly doubt they don't.

To me, this is like Schrödinger's financial summary.  The below quote either supports or refutes it.

Quote

 

Historically, the Holy See invested mainly in Italian industries, spreading its portfolio between stocks and bonds, and limiting its stake in companies to less than 6%. It has invested conservatively, choosing to buy and hold proven companies in strong industries; because of this, investments in the developing world are limited.

More recent investments have been more international, however, particularly in western European currencies and bonds, with some activity in the New York Stock Exchange. The Holy See also has investments in real estate around the world, particularly in land and churches.

 

 

[Teancum]

31 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

You sound jealous. I don’t think either Norway or the LDS Church are going to give you any of their money. 

THat is a weird response.  How you picked up jealousy from that post and decided to make an ad hominem comment is beyond me.  It was pretty neutral.

[mrmarklin]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

THat is a weird response.  How you picked up jealousy from that post and decided to make an ad hominem comment is beyond me.  It was pretty neutral.

Yeah maybe it is weird. But you keep harping on the church’s money as if the church is doing something wrong, or not in accordance with your wishes. Hence, the jealousy comment. 
I don’t have any inside knowledge of church finances, but since none of the GAs live in palaces AFAIK, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt as to their wise stewardship. 
On another note, I’m half Norwegian. So when the time comes to get part of Norway’s trillions, I’m applying for citizenship. 

[kimpearson]

If we are going to talk about wealth then the real question should be what does God expect us to do with wealth including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Catholic Church.  Read your Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine Covenants.  What does God tell us to do with wealth?  There are no shortage of scriptures on the subject.  Read the talks and teachings about wealth from the leaders of both churches.  What do they say to do with wealth?

I don't think you will find a scripture that says God's church is the one with the most overall wealth, per capita wealth or best invested wealth.   I believe God expects wealth to be used to bless the lives of His Children in the work of helping each child of God become something better.  I am confident the scriptures and leaders teachings support that.

What is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doing with its wealth?

What is the Catholic Church doing with its wealth?

[Teancum]

28 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Yeah maybe it is weird. But you keep harping on the church’s money as if the church is doing something wrong, or not in accordance with your wishes. Hence, the jealousy comment. 
I don’t have any inside knowledge of church finances, but since none of the GAs live in palaces AFAIK, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt as to their wise stewardship. 
On another note, I’m half Norwegian. So when the time comes to get part of Norway’s trillions, I’m applying for citizenship. 

I don't harp.  I discuss it. Apparently there is something that bothers you about that. What the GAs make or don't has noting to do with my points.  And by the way I think a GA should be paid and paid well.  They are after all upper management of a HUGE corporation.  They should be rewarded.  And I Don't have a problem with a church having significant assets.  But it can be carried to far. Since I have probably given six figures of my lifetime earning to the LDS Church I feel I can bring up my thoughts and opinions about their msssive wealth.  After all I helped create it both with my assets and my time.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

The Catholic church does not have other assets such as stock investments, cash, etc.  I highly doubt they don't.

They don’t or they do?  I think your sentences contradict each other.

FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_the_Works_of_Religion

Quote

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians. Unlike ordinary stockholders, the Vatican pays no taxes on this income, which led the leftist Rome weekly L'Espresso last week to call it "the biggest tax evader in Italy."

http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,833509,00.html

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

On another note, I’m half Norwegian. So when the time comes to get part of Norway’s trillions, I’m applying for citizenship. 

1/4 Swedish, does that count?

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

They don’t or they do?  I think your sentences contradict each other.

Should have been a ? after the first sentence.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Should have been a ? after the first sentence.

Thank you for clarifying.

[poptart]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Do WASPS get to have money?

Not up to me.  I just state my opinions, post interesting things, at times leave people wondering with the occasional side order of headache then move on.  I'm speashul lol.

[Islander]

On 11/12/2021 at 4:26 AM, Navidad said:

As most of you know, my mind tends to go all over the place. Last night I got into bed thinking about the comment made by someone here on another thread that the offshoot groups (my term) within Mormonism are not really in competition with or a threat to the big LDS organization. I don't dispute that at all. It did make me think of a broader question - uh oh, Navidad is thinking again - that is trouble!

Is the LDS church really in competition with or a "threat" to the larger Christian community in the world? If I would suggest that there may be 400,000 folks in all the offshoot Mormon groups (including the 250,000 in The Community of Christ) and 16,000,000 in the LDS church, then the offshoot groups together represent a group that is 2.5% of the size of the LDS church. They are apparently insignificant as a competitor or threat to the "mother" church.

If there are 2,500,000,000 in the Christian world-wide community and 16,000,000 in the LDS Church, then the LDS church represents a group that is .64 or less than 1% of the size of the larger Christian community. So, is the LDS community in competition with or a threat to the larger Christian community? What does this data say about how the "onlyism" of the LDS (broad use) mindset registers within the overall Christian community? The Mormon Christian identity is such a tiny percentage of that of the whole, less than that of the offshoot groups in relation to the mother church? Do numbers correlate in some way with significance? I am not sure they do. If, however the offshoots of Mormonism are not significant to the LDS church, what does that say about LDS significance in the worldwide Christian community? Somehow it boggles my mind (not a challenging task) to think that a group that is less than 1% of the total has a truth claim of being the "only." The LeBaron and other Firstborn communities here in Mexico are a tiny group within the Mormon tradition, but they are vocal and powerful in a number of ways, far beyond what their numbers would suggest.

Does the LDS church have a sense of itself in competition with or a threat to the rest of Christianity? Certainly its exclusive truth claims would indicate that, at least they do to me. It is challenging for me to discuss this since I have so very many close friends and acquaintances in the LDS church and the broader Christian community. Is the relative size of the LDS community in relation to the rest of Christianity something that is ever discussed when Saints get together? I know in the spiritual dimension, what Christ thinks is really what matters, but there is certainly a finite human dimension to this as well, the importance of which cannot be underestimated.

I value your thoughts, especially when my mind is boggled! Help me, if possible to unboggle it! Thanks!

I suggest that the most pressing issues relate to the shrinking American church. In 50 years the American church will be less tan a 1/3 of the total worldwide membership. But even in Latin America growth is slowing significantly or even halting . Some 15 years ago I served in the Bishopric at a ward in Mexico City that doubled and split in 38 months. Today, the original ward is about 20% smaller than it was. With missionary work reduced to, more or less, a retention tool, i don't think we are competing with any body at this stage.

[Tacenda]

On 11/15/2021 at 3:14 PM, kimpearson said:

If we are going to talk about wealth then the real question should be what does God expect us to do with wealth including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Catholic Church.  Read your Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine Covenants.  What does God tell us to do with wealth?  There are no shortage of scriptures on the subject.  Read the talks and teachings about wealth from the leaders of both churches.  What do they say to do with wealth?

I don't think you will find a scripture that says God's church is the one with the most overall wealth, per capita wealth or best invested wealth.   I believe God expects wealth to be used to bless the lives of His Children in the work of helping each child of God become something better.  I am confident the scriptures and leaders teachings support that.

What is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doing with its wealth?

What is the Catholic Church doing with its wealth?

Speaking of which I saw this article today about a billionaire member that isn't happy with how the church isn't helping more people with it's wealth and he's donating 90% of his wealth before he dies and just resigned from the church. Here's a letter he wrote Pres Nelson I guess.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wealthiest-utah-native-resigns-from-the-lds-church/ar-AARZntD?ocid=msedgntp&fbclid=IwAR2554AgDMI19KoIVz81d8dskVP8SXEFduEAMs-_QTfVwjBoJdgz9ByAVOs

[JustAnAustralian]

He hasn't considered himself a member for more than a decade, and from the look of it, many of his family haven't attended for a while either.

Quote

“While I left the Mormon church more than a decade ago — not believing, attending, or practicing — I have not officially requested the removal of my records, until now.”

So although the church records may decrease by a few, much like the "mass resignations" we see, it won't actually make any difference.