Purpose of tithing settlement for temple recommend holders that is not redundant?

[Rain]

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

[Fether]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

Another reason could be to make sure the membership are doing well financially. This is a great time for the Bishop to figure out who needs help with thanksgiving and Christmas. Though this isn’t the purpose of the settlement, the timing lines up in such a way that it can be a utility.

That being said, this is a good question.

[JustAnAustralian]

Someone could easily stop paying a year into their T/R valid period, so not completely redundant.

People may not do "online stuff".

Also though as part of tithing settlement the bishop declares the current tithing status of all members of his ward back to church HQ (full, part, non, undeclared). 

 

In the past I've had tithing settlements as short as sticking my head through the bishops door, saying I'm a full tithe payer, and going home. So it's really as big or small as the Bishop decides is necessary.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Can’t say anything about purpose, but based on what I know about human nature, people are likely to pay more when they have to sit across from someone they know, look them in the eye, and declare their status (all with a statement of how much they’ve paid over the last 12 months sitting in the table), than the counter factual world where you sit down briefly with a counselor that doesn’t have any financial data for an interview that briefly mentions tithing. 

[strappinglad]

It is also an opportunity for members to chat with the Bishop especially if the Bishop is new. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

It is also an opportunity for members to chat with the Bishop especially if the Bishop is new. 

Yeh, it's kinda nice to see the guy one-on-one at least once a year.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

 

[mfbukowski]

1. A personal visit with the bishop for everyone 

2. A chance for the bishop to " look 'em in the eye" 

3. Lotsa people do not use internet.

4. The importance of the ceremony of declaring your own worthiness, not to the bishop but to the Lord, with the bishop as witness.

Probably # 4 is the most important.

Edited November 8, 2021 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Someone could easily stop paying a year into their T/R valid period, so not completely redundant.

People may not do "online stuff".

Also though as part of tithing settlement the bishop declares the current tithing status of all members of his ward back to church HQ (full, part, non, undeclared). 

 

In the past I've had tithing settlements as short as sticking my head through the bishops door, saying I'm a full tithe payer, and going home. So it's really as big or small as the Bishop decides is necessary.

I was thinking of this as well.  People only do temple recommends every two years now, so it's no longer a giving that someone has declared they were full tithe payers at some point during the calendar year already.

And I know of people who paid a full tithe long enough to get a recommend and then backslid into not paying it anymore within a few months.  It would not make sense for the bishop to just assume someone was a full tithe payer based on them having a current temple recommend.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the church starts doing it a different way.  Members complain about settlement enough (myself sometimes included) and there are quite a few that refuse to go at all, increasing the stress of the bishop and executive secretary during the Christmas season when the bishop is already stressed and busy dealing with increased welfare needs.  

I'm guessing if the church feels that God is ok with going a different route that we will do that before long.

Edited November 8, 2021 by bluebell

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Rain said:

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

I think it is part of full transparency for the individual to formally report their attestation and contributions at regular intervals, annually being the most convenient. The temple recommend question is a matter of worthiness, and the settlement a matter of stewardship, two different applications of the same principle, the first being spiritual and the other being temporal, with the bishop's witness/judgement joining of the two.

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was thinking of this as well.  People only do temple recommends every two years now, so it's no longer a giving that someone has declared they were full tithe payers at some point during the calendar year already.

And I know of people who paid a full tithe long enough to get a recommend and then backslid into not paying it anymore within a few months.  It would not make sense for the bishop to just assume someone was a full tithe payer based on them having a current temple recommend.

If that is a big enough issue to have tithing settlement then why change reccomends from 1 year to 2.  The same problem could be said about the Word of Wisdom or chastity etc.

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it is part of full transparency for the individual to formally report their attestation and contributions at regular intervals, annually being the most convenient. The temple recommend question is a matter of worthiness, and the settlement a matter of stewardship,

Speak more on the bolded please. I'm not sure how stewardship would be separate from worthiness verses falling as a category under worthiness. 

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

two different applications of the same principle, the first being spiritual and the other being temporal, with the bishop's witness/judgement joining of the two.

 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

If that is a big enough issue to have tithing settlement then why change reccomends from 1 year to 2.  The same problem could be said about the Word of Wisdom or chastity etc.

Maybe it's changed up a lot, because I don't remember getting my recommend renewed every year. I believe it was every 2.

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's changed up a lot, because I don't remember getting my recommend renewed every year. I believe it was every 2.

It was 1 for most years of my life and then changed to 2 a few years ago.

[bluebell]

Just now, Rain said:

If that is a big enough issue to have tithing settlement then why change reccomends from 1 year to 2.  The same problem could be said about the Word of Wisdom or chastity etc.

I don't know.  I haven't cared enough to contemplate it or ask the bishop for clarification.  I find tithing settlement annoying but I don't have an issue with it for any other reason, and my annoyance level hasn't reached the point where I'm going to extend extra time on the topic, so I just go do my 10 minute tithing settlement in October and then be really really happy that it's over with and I don't have to worry about it anymore for a year.   

Maybe it's like CV75 said-the difference between worthiness and stewardship.  And the difference between a person choosing to go to the temple unworthily just because they have a current temple recommend, and the stewardship the church has over tithing funds. 

Maybe it's about our stewardships in general.  The member is a steward over their worthiness to enter into the temple, and so the buck stops with the members on that to a large degree.  The church sets the standard but members are free to lie about their worthiness if they want.  If/when they do it is to their detriment, not the church's. 

The church is a steward over tithing funds though so with tithing, the buck stops with the leadership, and if tithing funds are mismanaged do to neglect of responsibility or bad practices, then it is a detriment to the church.   Maybe that's why the church requires an extra level of reporting.

Who really knows though.  

[bluebell]

Here is a podcast where bishops explain their perspective on tithing settlement. It's from 2000 so fairly old but maybe it will provide insight for those who are looking for more information.

https://leadingsaints.org/wiwik-tithing-settlement/

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Speak more on the bolded please. I'm not sure how stewardship would be separate from worthiness verses falling as a category under worthiness. 

 

I would say both fall under covenant. But a stewardship includes reconciling paperwork (matching clerk and personal records that can be handles and compared), which is not done in the temple recommend interview where the paper recommend is "matching" the individual's claims with the bishop's and stake president's concurrence without any material proof.

In the interview, a person can promise to pay tithing going forward and receive the recommend. In the settlement, a person can promise to pay tithing going forward, keep their recommend, but still be on record for that year as "part" or "not" tithe-paying.

Of course all things are spiritual, but some spiritual reconciliations require material proof (e.g., tithing settlement) and others don't (e.g., temple recommends, though these subsequently become proof for temple entrance at the recommend desk). I hope that helps!

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I would say both fall under covenant. But a stewardship includes reconciling paperwork (matching clerk and personal records that can be handles and compared), which is not done in the temple recommend interview where the paper recommend is "matching" the individual's claims with the bishop's and stake president's concurrence without any material proof.

In the interview, a person can promise to pay tithing going forward and receive the recommend. In the settlement, a person can promise to pay tithing going forward, keep their recommend, but still be on record for that year as "part" or "not" tithe-paying.

Of course all things are spiritual, but some spiritual reconciliations require material proof (e.g., tithing settlement) and others don't (e.g., temple recommends, though these subsequently become proof for temple entrance at the recommend desk).

Where do you find this?

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I hope that helps!

 

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

Where do you find this?

 

This is my observation, experience and understanding. The aspect about the importance of record-keeping and the importance of their matching with the expectation of heaven through the sealing (blinding) power is set forth in D&C 128 (which was just reviewed with regards to baptism for the dead in this week's Sunday School, but has other applications as well as suggested in the D&C sections covering consecration,  stewardships and other temporal endeavors of the saints in relation to membership in the Church). Also, walking through the paper process for recommends and settlements shows some of these differences 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

 

In the interview, a person can promise to pay tithing going forward and receive the recommend. 

 

From my experience listening to the experiences of others, this is not a given.  It really depends on the bishop, with most seeming to require a period of tithe paying before the recommend is issued.  Occasionally back tithing is required but that seems to depend on the amount that is behind (if it's only a couple hundred dollars for example), and other factors.

[2BizE]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:18 PM, Rain said:

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

I’ll be honest, tithing settlement feels and has the perception of a shake down. The church trying to extract every dollar from the member.  Do other religious/ charitable organizations do this?

[JustAnAustralian]

4 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Do other religious/ charitable organizations do this?

Other churches have credit card readers https://phys.org/news/2018-08-churches-card-readers-donations.html that seems a lot more like trying to extract money than a once a year thing that you aren't forced to attend.

Edited November 9, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I’ll be honest, tithing settlement feels and has the perception of a shake down. The church trying to extract every dollar from the member.  Do other religious/ charitable organizations do this?

Yes, watch this priest trying to get a small donation for the church’s upkeep.

 

[Maidservant]

Tithing settlement has to be one of my favorite meetings. I rarely attend Sunday services anymore, but I joyfully went to my tithing settlement. I looked forward to the bishop praying over me especially that the windows of heaven would open for me. That prayer is, for me, the main reason for the tithing settlement. and P.S. I will likely never be in a temple recommend interview again. That is more Melchizedek priesthood territory. Tithing settlement is more Aaronic priesthood and related to my baptismal, but not my temple, covenants.

[JAHS]

On 11/7/2021 at 6:18 PM, Rain said:

I was just wondering the purpose of tithing settlement.   I am seeing 2 reasons:

1. To make sure all money donated is correctly identified 

2. Declare a full tithe.

Now days I can look at the church website and see #1 easily if everything I donate is online. 

A temple recommend will already have declared themselves as full tithe players which makes settlement redundant.

 

So any other reasons for tithing settlement?

At tithing settlement we also give the member a copy of their membership record to let them see if everything is up to date or if their are any mistakes.