Sexism in Utah: How Latter-day Saints Fare

Calm · November 4, 2021

This is off topic, so no one needs to respond, but the information is worthwhile to know, so posting.

This is an interesting article on an issue in Utah I had not been aware of, difficulty of even getting recognition of majority Native American communities:

https://utahdinebikeyah.org/////wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Structural-Racism-Mapping-2-8-19.pdf

Need to find a way to compare other states on this.

Quote

Representative Kim Coleman is sponsoring a bill, HB 93 in the Utah State legislature which would allow a minority population of a county to withdraw from, and create a new county without consent of the entire county. This is a sad and discriminatory reaction to the election for the first-time of a majority Native American commission in San Juan County, Utah. The Native American majority has been disenfranchised for more than a century. Maps have erased these communities in the past, and now that they are visible, the northern communities in the county that are predominantly white are considering forming a new government. HB 93 would harm everyone in San Juan County, but most especially the Native Americans who live in the southern half of the county

Quote

While there are 8,000 Native Americans across ten communities in San Juan County, Utah, most on- reservation towns do not appear on maps, despite having hundreds more residents than the average mapped white communities in Utah. Many veiled terms are often used to justify denying services to Native Americans, and in this case, the term you hear most often is “dispersed communities.” Many Native American communities are not provided services because they have been labeled “dispersed communities” while towns that white communities live in are provided these services.
This represents one among many examples of structural racism. Invisibility on maps impacts everyday lives and this exact issue was at stake in the San Juan County redistricting court case in 2017 and 2018. Native American communities should never be disappeared.
San Juan County Native communities are not large (based on 2017 Census estimates), but we have for too long suffered the indignity of invisibility on maps. San Juan County Native communities proudly go by names such as: Aneth, Montezuma Creek, Westwater, White Mesa, White Rocks, Mexican Water, Halchita, Dennehotso, Oljato, and Navajo Mountain. However, the government in San Juan County has historically chosen to ignore the people of these places. Our needs are overlooked and ignored, and it is difficult to bring services to towns and citizens who do not appear to exist.
If you want to understand Native American Utahns better, learn where we are, who we are, and that we exist. Approximately, 40% of people in our communities lack running water and electricity. These are forms of structural racism too. The State of Utah, and the Utah Congressional delegation each has a role to play in elevating and finding solutions to these challenges. Local communities are ready to lead.
This matters because when communities cannot get the services they need through political channels, they have only one option, which is to go to the courts. On November 15th, 2017, San Juan County attorney Jesse Trentadue argued before Judge Shelby that the, “reservation is not necessarily a community of interest. Oljato and Mexican Hat, yes, but not the whole reservation.” Throughout his discourse, he seems to suggest that Native Americans do not form legally recognizable communities because people live across “dispersed areas.”

Edited November 4, 2021 by Calm

Calm · November 4, 2021

King James Version (KJV)

But let your communication be, Yes, yes; No, no: for whatever is more than these comes of evil.😉

MustardSeed · November 5, 2021

It’s really not that impossible to eliminate offensive language IMO. If so, then it is best to keep quiet.

Calm · November 5, 2021

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Then it's yes ma'am or no ma'am. Have a nice day ma'am. But now I'm told that's demeaning.

Who is telling you it is automatically demeaning or wrong for you personally to say it?

Describing our own personal reactions to the terms is not the same as telling someone else to not use them anymore than me saying I don’t like baked bean dishes is me telling others it is wrong to serve them. My discomfort if others are using them to be simply be polite is my issue, though I don’t think it is a bad idea in general for someone saying sir or ma’am to pay attention to the person’s reaction or even ask in case someone is uncomfortable being called such for whatever reason…just as it would be nice to not insist that I eat a bean dish if I say “no, thank you” (though generally I won’t unless they are suggesting I take more than the small spoonful I’ll serve myself to be polite) or to ask a guest their food preferences if they are staying for awhile.

To me, the ones who are being offensive are not the ones actually saying sir or ma’am, but rather those who insist others call them sir or ma’am while refusing to treat others in the same respectful way themselves….like a boss at a university who insists everyone who they supervise refer to them as “Doctor” or “Professor” but then calls their employees by their first names or something else that treats them as inferior.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Calm

Tacenda · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 10:44 PM, Calm said:

This is off topic, so no one needs to respond, but the information is worthwhile to know, so posting.

This is an interesting article on an issue in Utah I had not been aware of, difficulty of even getting recognition of majority Native American communities:

https://utahdinebikeyah.org/////wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Structural-Racism-Mapping-2-8-19.pdf

Need to find a way to compare other states on this.

The saddest, and I call out the pioneers and government that came in and took their lands and made it unsustainable to how they were use to living, and now in this day and age it's still happening. They are stripped of good water because of the invasion years ago, and now they still don't have the water they were stripped of, it's inhumane how we've treated them. And how it's the outside groups that are the ones doing all they can to help get them what we all take for granted.

This article mentions the race problem:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/28/indigenous-americans-drinking-water-navajo-nation

Edited November 5, 2021 by Tacenda

Amulek · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 5:42 PM, smac97 said:

Per this 2017 survey, "while women largely believe in and support the tenets of feminism — the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities — only one in three (33 percent) would go so far as to identify herself as a feminist."

I can sympathize. While I personally consider myself to be a feminist, I rarely use that term to describe myself because it carries a lot of extra baggage. I think it's probably akin to someone who supports civil rights but may not feel comfortable identifying as a BLM supporter.

Amulek · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 10:39 PM, katherine the great said:

On 11/3/2021 at 9:46 PM, rodheadlee said:

I just don't talk anymore in public. I don't want to offend anyone. My work requires minimal speech. I wanted to compliment this woman on her pantsuit but I didn't.

It’s probably good practice to not make personal comments in a work environment anyway. It’s too easy to misconstrue. I would appreciate a comment like that from a man or woman who is a friend at a social gathering though.

I think the friend part is key.

For example, I've worked with my assistant manager for 15+ years now. Over that time we have come to be pretty good friends. I'm quite confident she wouldn't misconstrue a compliment from me when I notice that she's snagged a new pair of shoes, scored a cool new outfit, or changed up her hairstyle.

And there's some reciprocity with all of that as well: she compliments me when I get a haircut, find a new geeky t-shirt, etc. But it isn't all about personal appearances either - we also notice when new family pictures go up or when we swap out our respective collections of 'kid art.' In other words we're just normal, good friends.

smac97 · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 10:44 PM, Calm said:

This is off topic, so no one needs to respond, but the information is worthwhile to know, so posting.

This is an interesting article on an issue in Utah I had not been aware of, difficulty of even getting recognition of majority Native American communities:

https://utahdinebikeyah.org/////wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Structural-Racism-Mapping-2-8-19.pdf

Need to find a way to compare other states on this.

A few thoughts:

1. The first page lists ten "towns" that are supposedly not listed on maps.utah.gov for racist reasons ("Visit maps.utah.gov to see that government departments in Utah consistently map white towns with smaller populations, and leave larger Native towns off the maps"). The website given does not work, but this one does: https://www.utah.gov/local/maps.html

As seen below, the "consistently" claim is very inaccurate. There are all sorts of unincorporated "towns" in Utah that also do not have entries on this website.

2. Of the ten Utah "towns" listed in the article, two of them, Dennehotso and Red Mesa, are in Arizona, not Utah.

3. Of the eight Utah "towns" listed in the article, two of them, Aneth and Whiterocks, have entries on the above map website.

4. Of the eight Utah "towns" listed in the article, three of them, Oljato, Halchita and Navajo Mountain, do not have a zip code.

5. Of the ten "towns" listed, all but one of them, Westwater, are actually "census-designated places" ("CDPs"), described here:

Quote

A census-designated place (CDP)^[1]^[2]^[3] is a concentration of population defined by the United States Census Bureau for statistical purposes only. CDPs have been used in each decennial census since 1980 as the counterparts of incorporated places,^[4] such as self-governing cities, towns, and villages, for the purposes of gathering and correlating statistical data. CDPs are populated areas that generally include one officially designated but currently unincorporated community, for which the CDP is named, plus surrounding inhabited countryside of varying dimensions and, occasionally, other, smaller unincorporated communities as well. CDPs include small rural communities, edge cities, colonias located along the Mexico–United States border, and unincorporated resort and retirement communities and their environs.^[5]

The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status^[1] and may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name. However, criteria established for the 2010 Census require that a CDP name "be one that is recognized and used in daily communication by the residents of the community" (not "a name developed solely for planning or other purposes") and recommend that a CDP's boundaries be mapped based on the geographic extent associated with inhabitants' regular use of the named place.^[5]

The Census Bureau states that census-designated places are not considered incorporated places...

"CDPs have been used in each decennial census since 1980 as the counterparts of incorporated places,[4] such as self-governing cities, towns, and villages, for the purposes of gathering and correlating statistical data."
"The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status..."
"The Census Bureau states that census-designated places are not considered incorporated places..."

6. The list on the first page of the article also lists supposedly "white" towns in Utah which are smaller (population-wise) than a corresponding "Native" town, but that are purportedly listed on the state maps website:

Oljato - Compared to Green River (an incorporated town, estimated population of 935 as of 2019).
Dennehotso - Compared to Huntsville (an incorporated town, estimated population of 642 as of 2019).
Aneth - Compared to Wanship (a CDP, population 400 as of 2010 census, this site shows a current population of 614).
Halchita - Compared to Eureka (an incorporated city, estimated population of 707 as of 2019).
Red Mesa - Compared to Veyo (a CDP, population 822 as of 2021).
Navajo Mtn - Compared to Springdale (an incorporated town, estimated population of 629 as of 2019).
Montezuma Creek - Compared to Scipio (an incorporated town, estimated population of 332 as of 2019).
White Mesa - Compared to Dutch John (an incorporated town, estimated population of 141 as of 2019).
White Rocks - Compared to Brian Head (an incorporated town, estimated population of 93 as of 2019).
Westwater - Compared to Ophir (a CDP, estimated population of 55 as of 2016).

As you can see, most of these seem to be an "Apples to Oranges" comparison of unincorporated CDPs to incorporated towns.

7. Per Wikipedia, there are 74 CDPs in Utah, with populations ranging from 1 (Bonanza) to 7,775 (Summit Park):

Census-Designated Places

CDP	Population^[3]	County
Aneth	501	San Juan
Avon	367	Cache
Benjamin	1,145	Utah
Benson	1,485	Cache
Beryl Junction	197	Iron
Bluebell	293	Duchesne
Bluff	258	San Juan
Bonanza	1	Uintah
Cache	38	Cache
Carbonville	1,567	Carbon
Central	613	Washington
Clear Creek	4	Carbon
Cove	460	Cache
Dammeron Valley	803	Washington
Deseret	353	Millard
Dugway	795	Tooele
Echo	56	Summit
Eden	600	Weber
Elberta	256	Utah
Enterprise	605	Morgan
Erda	4,642	Tooele
Flaming Gorge	83	Daggett
Fort Duchesne	714	Uintah
Fremont	145	Wayne
Garden	181	Rich
Granite	1,932	Salt Lake
Halchita	266	San Juan
Halls Crossing	6	San Juan
Hoytsville	607	Summit
Jensen	412	Uintah
Kenilworth	180	Carbon
La Sal	395	San Juan
Lake Shore	817	Utah
Liberty	1,257	Weber
Maeser	3,601	Uintah
Marion	685	Summit
Mexican Hat	31	San Juan
Montezuma Creek	335	San Juan
Mountain Green	2,309	Morgan
Navajo Mountain	354	San Juan
Neola	461	Duchesne
Newcastle	247	Iron
Oasis	75	Millard
Oljato–Monument Valley	674	San Juan
Palmyra	491	Utah
Peoa	253	Summit
Peter	324	Cache
Pine Valley	186	Washington
Randlett	220	Uintah
Riverside	760	Box Elder
Samak	287	Summit
Silver Summit	3,632	Summit
Snyderville	5,612	Summit
South Willard	1,571	Box Elder
Spanish Valley	491	San Juan
Spring Glen	1,126	Carbon
Spring Lake	458	Utah
Stansbury Park	5,145	Tooele
Summit	160	Iron
Summit Park	7,775	Summit
Sutherland	165	Millard
Teasdale	191	Wayne
Thatcher	789	Box Elder
Thompson Springs	39	Grand
Timber Lakes	607	Wasatch
Tselakai Dezza	109	San Juan
Veyo	483	Washington
Wanship	400	Summit
West Mountain	1,186	Utah
West Wood	844	Carbon
White Mesa	242	San Juan
Whiterocks	289	Uintah
Wolf Creek	1,336	Weber
Woodland	343	Summit

8. There does not seem to be much of a correlation between population of these CDPs and entries for them on the state map website. The following CDPs have map entries:

Aneth
Bluebell
Bonanza
Mexican Hat
Cache (aka Cache Junction)
Central
Dammeron Valley
Dugway
Echo
Eden
Elberta
Enterprise
Fort Duchesne
Jensen
Kenilworth
Mexican Hat
Neola
Newcastle
Oasis
Peoa
Pine Valley
Randlett
Riverside
Summit
Teasdale
Thompson Springs
Veyo
Whiterocks

That is 28 out of the 74 CDPs in Utah. In other words, most CDPs in Utah are not listed on the state maps website.

9. Of the remaining 46 CDPs in Utah that do not have a listing on the state maps website, many of them have sizeable populations:

Benjamin (population 1,145)
Benson (population 1,485)
Carbonville (population 1,567)
Erda (population 4,642)
Granite (population 1,932)
Liberty (population 1,257)
Maeser (population 3,601)
Mountain Green (population 2,309)
Silver Summit (population 3,632)
Snyderville (population 5,612)
South Willard (population 1,571)
Spring Glen (population 1,126)
Stansbury Park (population 5,145)
Summit Park (population 7,775)
West Mountain (population 1,186)
Wolf Creek (population 1,336)

Are these "towns" being discriminated against because they lack entries on the maps website?

10. The thesis of the article you cite is that there is "structural racism" in Utah because small "towns" in Utah that are predominantly Native American are not listed on the state maps website, whereas other smaller "towns" that are predominantly "white" are listed. Except...

A) The state maps website is very inconsistent in its entries (see above).
B) The state maps website also omits plenty of "white" "towns" that have sizeable populations over and above the "Native" ones listed.
C) The article pads its list of "Utah" "Native" "towns" by adding two that are in Arizona, and also by erroneously stating that the two of the Utah "Native" "towns" do not have entries, when in fact they do (Aneth and Whiterocks).
D) Of the eight "Native" "towns" in Utah listed as not being included on the state maps website, six of them are CDPs. As shown above, a substial majority of CDPs in Utah are also not listed on the state maps website.

11. The article complains about significant percentages of populations of the "Native" "towns" lacking "running water and electricity." The article complains about these communities being characterized as "dispersed communities" and "dispersed areas." The reasoning in the article is . . . unclear. Are the populations "dipersed" or not? If so, are there other areas in Utah where there is a lack of electricity or running water due to insufficient population density? The article merely writes it all up to "structural racism," but that's way too conclusory for me.

12. In my view, three significant factors not sufficiently addressed in the article:

A) the status of the "Native" "towns" as CDPs rather than incorporated entities;
B) the practical ramifications of population density/dispersion; and
C) whether or not these practical ramifications are reflected in other rural, unincorporated, non-"Native" areas in Utah.

13. There are no doubt ways we can improve, but the article here is too conclusory, too risible, and too bereft of substantive information/data to help clarify things.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 5, 2021 by smac97

provoman · November 5, 2021

I have first hand knowledge of a female with a PhD in a male dominated licensed field.

It is not uncommon for her to speak and be ignored; then sometime later in the same meeting a male says what she said earlier and everyone is “jolly good idea.”

She also shared about attending a professional conference in southern Utah where a male HR rep was presenting and used a stereotype about females liking a particular food and asking a female in the audience if she was on a diet.

Society can’t just “turn it off”, that is not an excuse to continue or tolerate, it is just a recognition that correcting dumb behavior takes a while

Edited November 5, 2021 by provoman

mfbukowski · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 4:37 PM, Ipod Touch said:

I'm the object of searing misandry every time I visit Provo. I can't walk 100 feet without being cat-called or whistled at. But, I guess I do like to wear racy shoes.

You should change your moniker to "Ipod Tush"

Calm · November 5, 2021

38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As you can see, most of these seem to be an "Apples to Oranges" comparison of unincorporated CDPs to incorporated towns.

So my question is why are the NA towns not incorporated. If they are not incorporated because they are neglected because of race, that would be problematic. I am not saying this is the case as you point out there are a number of other unincorporated areas, just saying it is a possibility that shouldn’t be ignored.

Quote

12. In my view, three significant factors not sufficiently addressed in the article

Thanks for looking into it deeper. I agree there appear to be problems with the article, especially Imo your “C”. That feels sloppy.

I wouldn’t dismiss the claims, but think more precision should be used for a better comparison and therefore more informed conclusion. For one thing, taking what you did a few steps further by collecting all of the CDPs in Utah, rating them by size and density of population and then seeing if there is a significant difference on the likelihood of being listed between white majority CDPs and NA ones.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Calm

webbles · November 5, 2021

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s really not that impossible to eliminate offensive language IMO. If so, then it is best to keep quiet.

For many types of offensive language, it is possible to eliminate. But I don't think it is possible to eliminate all offensive language.

One example from my life is dead-naming. For some people, it is really offensive to call them by their dead-name and I try hard to respect their wishes. But I'm terrible with remembering names. I'll forget co-worker names that I've worked with for years. I've called people by their dead-names multiple times after being told that it is a dead-name. But each time I do it, it isn't malicious on my part. I just honestly forgot the fact. But for the person that I'm dead-naming, it can be offensive and I'm sorry that I caused them pain.

Calm · November 5, 2021

33 minutes ago, provoman said:

Society can’t just “turn it off”, that is not an excuse to continue or tolerate, it is just a recognition that correcting dumb behavior takes a while

And it needs to be recognized as such first.

Nofear · November 5, 2021

13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

There are no women in my workplace unless it's a customer.

Then it's yes ma'am or no ma'am. Have a nice day ma'am. But now I'm told that's demeaning. I give up.

Peacefully · November 5, 2021

29 minutes ago, webbles said:

For many types of offensive language, it is possible to eliminate. But I don't think it is possible to eliminate all offensive language.

One example from my life is dead-naming. For some people, it is really offensive to call them by their dead-name and I try hard to respect their wishes. But I'm terrible with remembering names. I'll forget co-worker names that I've worked with for years. I've called people by their dead-names multiple times after being told that it is a dead-name. But each time I do it, it isn't malicious on my part. I just honestly forgot the fact. But for the person that I'm dead-naming, it can be offensive and I'm sorry that I caused them pain.

I had very personal reasons for using my nickname instead of my proper name after my husband passed. It wasn’t easy for my co-workers to get used to the name, so it was easier once I changed jobs. A couple of the people from the old job also changed to the new company and had a hard time using my “new” name but they finally got the hang of it. I didn’t have to correct them because they usually corrected themselves. Not the same as a dead-name but i imagine most people in those type of situations show grace as long as they know the person is not trying to offend and is trying to get it right.

Tacenda · November 5, 2021

5 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I've called people sir or ma'am in the same situations in the video. I would use it because I didn't know their names. I wouldn't want to call someone "person".

Peacefully · November 5, 2021

10 minutes ago, Nofear said:

So true, Sir!

mrmarklin · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 5:22 PM, Tacenda said:

This doesn't look good, if true:

I don't live in Utah, but I find this nonsensical.

This stuff is done with wasteful Government grants by people that need to "get a life".

mrmarklin · November 5, 2021

Re Native Americans:

We stole this land fair and square by right of conquest. Do you really want to give it back to Mexico?😉

Thinking · November 5, 2021

On 11/3/2021 at 5:22 PM, Tacenda said:

This doesn't look good, if true:

So basically some group decided that

Equality = Workplace Environment + Education & Health + Political Empowerment

Any definition can be manipulated in order to obtain the desired result - especially if the questions are worded in such a way as to create bias.

Sexism in Utah: How Latter-day Saints Fare

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

King James Version (KJV)

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Census-Designated Places

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Recently Browsing 0 members