“Wishing to be together does not make it d as so.”

[Rivers]

I’m still a bit confused about the doctrine of sealing.  I understand that sealing extends marital status into eternity.  But what is it that keeps couples apart if they are not sealed?  
 

The doctrine of sealing has to mean a lot more than simply “being together.”  There’s got to be better language to discuss this doctrine.

[Rivers]

Sorry about the duplicate.

[MustardSeed]

I think we just don’t know enough to speak on it more clearly. 

[JLHPROF]

Loved that line.  Disagreed with most of what he said about ordinances.

6 minutes ago, Rivers said:

But what is it that keeps couples apart if they are not sealed? 

Law.  It's not a proximity rule.  It's about not being united in an eternal union.

[Rivers]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Loved that line.  Disagreed with most of what he said about ordinances.

Law.  It's not a proximity rule.  It's about not being united in an eternal union.

So two people can be in proximity and not be in an eternal union?  
 

 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Rivers said:

So two people can be in proximity and not be in an eternal union?  
 

 

Sure.

No eternal increase, no unity, none of the blessings pronounced on eternally sealed couples.

Just neighbors.

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just neighbors.

I would add… Neighbors that can live together as family should they wish

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Rivers said:

The doctrine of sealing has to mean a lot more than simply “being together.”  There’s got to be better language to discuss this doctrine

Exaltation.

All God has.

Heck you can "be together" and not even be married. It's "just a piece of paper". Nope, it's a higher level of commitment to be married and sealing is a still higher commitment to your spouse and God and the "covenant path" to be sealed.

It makes a difference. All three do make a difference 

Or you could try all three and see for yourself and waste a few years if you like 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So two people can be in proximity and not be in an eternal union?  
 

 

You can make any  contract you want with anyone you want.

But is God behind it?

Who's going to stand by your contract after you're dead?

And give you all HE has?

So you can err on either side, unless the church really is false.

Pascal's Wager.

Best wishes, and I do mean wishes!

Edited October 3, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Duncan]

it isn't a guarantee that your marriage will last into the eternities, if your marriage is terrible here but you don't get divorced I highly doubt God will honor it into the next life. If you want a forever marriage there then work on it here. I know some couples that I hope to God above their temple marriage doesn't last because who wants to be miserable forever?

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it isn't a guarantee that your marriage will last into the eternities, if your marriage is terrible here but you don't get divorced I highly doubt God will honor it into the next life. If you want a forever marriage there then work on it here. I know some couples that I hope to God above their temple marriage doesn't last because who wants to be miserable forever?

The question of covenant vs agency is always an interesting one.

God won't violate agency.  But I don't believe "wishing" to break one covenant and pick a new one will necessarily be an option either. 

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Loved that line.  Disagreed with most of what he said about ordinances.

The whole time he was talking about that I was thinking to myself "I bet JLH is fit to be tied". 

[bluebell]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

The question of covenant vs agency is always an interesting one.

God won't violate agency.  But I don't believe "wishing" to break one covenant and pick a new one will necessarily be an option either. 

If the sealing was never ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise because the marriage was broken, does the covenant still exist to break?

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The whole time he was talking about that I was thinking to myself "I bet JLH is fit to be tied". 

Nah, I've made my peace with their error.  God can steer his own ship.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If the sealing was never ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise because the marriage was broken, does the covenant still exist to break?

Very good question.

Is the covenant with each other or God?  If you promise God you choose to be united eternally, breaking that isn't just about the couple involved.  There's a promise to God being broken too.

Do we think God will be more willing to allow us the opportunity to break another one?  (Recognizing that there are numerous situations where participants had no choice in the outcome).

[cinepro]

I agree the whole "being together forever" thing doesn't make sense the more you think about it.

Suppose my wife and I end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex. We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball. But no sex.

But maybe it's set up so I won't be able to be with my wife. There will be special segregated areas where people can't reunite with loved ones from Earth in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdom. So we remember what happened on Earth, but we're around different people. As eternal beings, wouldn't we just eventually...move on? I mean, I'd always remember what happened, but after a billion years, wouldn't I eventually make new friends? The doctrine of sealing and togetherness seems to imply that out of the billions of people who have lived, the one you find and choose to marry, and the few that you give birth to, are the only ones you can be happy with for the rest of eternity. It's a romantic idea, and I wouldn't show this to my wife, but I'm not sure it really makes sense. I mean, it's not even true for most people for the few decades we're on Earth (many kids and parents are more than happy to be apart, and spouses often find out within a few years or decades that they're happier not being together).

So then we get to the other stuff, like eternal increase and getting our own planets. But from what I can tell, a lot of people aren't really interested in "increase" beyond two or three, and they're not interested in managing massive projects. They just want to watch TV and hang out on the internet. If we have the same personalities in the afterlife as we do here on Earth, I'm not seeing a planet of would-be managers of planets managing eternal increase.

Edited October 3, 2021 by cinepro

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Very good question.

Is the covenant with each other or God?  If you promise God you choose to be united eternally, breaking that isn't just about the couple involved.  There's a promise to God being broken too.

Do we think God will be more willing to allow us the opportunity to break another one?  (Recognizing that there are numerous situations where participants had no choice in the outcome).

Can the covenant be with each other AND God?

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, cinepro said:

If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex. We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball. But no sex.

So then we get to the other stuff, like eternal increase and getting our own planets. But from what I can tell, a lot of people aren't really interested in "increase" beyond two or three, and they're not interested in managing massive projects. They just want to watch TV and hang out on the internet. 

Someone to hang out with, not raise a family/families with.  That describes a buddy, not a spouse. And certainly not a God.

Edited October 3, 2021 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can the covenant be with each other AND God?

Of course.  But you break a covenant with a spouse you break it with God.  You want a replacement covenant it's not just a new spouse you need to get on board with the new promise.

[mgy401]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I agree the whole "being together forever" thing doesn't make sense the more you think about it.

Suppose my wife and I end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex.  We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball.

Sure, but are you sure you’d want to?

Eternity is a long time.  Longer, if there is no real purpose or unattained goal that gives direction to your ongoing existence; and especially once your realize that your capacity and desire to be amused ultimately exceed the number of amusements that are available.  

What if the inevitable degeneration of human relationships into boredom and ennui and apathy is the rule, rather than the exception; and it’s only some qualitative aspect of exaltation and/or the sealing covenant that prevents that decay from happening?

Edited October 3, 2021 by mgy401

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Someone to hang out with, not raise a family/families with.  That describes a buddy, not a spouse. And certainly not a God.

So… if my wife is incapable of having a child, she isn’t really my spouse?

[Calm]

On 10/3/2021 at 1:09 PM, cinepro said:

I agree the whole "being together forever" think doesn't make sense the more you think about it.

Suppose my wife and I end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex. We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball. But no sex.

I haven’t listened to the talk yet, woke up a bit ago and still waiting for my stomach to settle.  It is easier to ignore discomfort when reading than when listening for me, a deeper level of concentration occurs.  So what follows may be completely off topic, my apologies if so. I may rewrite this or delete it after watching the talk later. 
 

Anyway, if I understand the point from just the comments here, for me it is about being together forever as one, one heart, one mind, even one flesh whatever that means.  I imagine it means more than just a momentary biological experience, I think it is more about acting together as one and not just for the same purpose…maybe it is something like being the perfect dance partners so that even with a brand new dance, the performance together is flawless…only this level of partnership is applied to everything in our life we do together.
 

This level of symbiotic relationship can only occur because the ability to communicate with each other, to understand the other’s needs, wants, intentions, abilities, requires a godly level of openness to each other. And I believe this quality of ability can only occur when God is part of the relationship equation. 
 

Analogy for variation in quality and depth of relationships based on kingdom…the Telestial Kingdom is like two people being together, but neither speaking the other’s language. Simple behaviours that are obvious (think pointing to a pile of dishes and handing the dish towel to your partner, need no words with that) and shared emotions are possible, but understanding the more complicated, more abstract aspects of ourselves is almost impossible.  Existence together can be a lot of fun and meaningful, but we are missing out on much that would be possible with a partner we were more aligned with, so to speak.
 

Terrestrial is each having a basic understanding of each other’s language, including a basic vocabulary knowledge so that somewhat more complicated interaction and understanding is possible. Celestial is both being very fluent in each other’s language, exaltation is being able to read each other’s minds so no words are even needed. 
 

Whatever the exaltation level of being one is, it is something I suspect few of us have experienced for very long, if at all, in mortality. So we settle for code words that hint of what is to come, like “being together forever”.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

So… if my wife is incapable of having a child, she isn’t really my spouse?

Inability and desire aren't the same thing.

God's entire work is about raising children to become Gods.  That's why D&C 132 is so clear on this subject.

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The whole time he was talking about that I was thinking to myself "I bet JLH is fit to be tied". 

Same:)

[MustardSeed]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Inability and desire aren't the same thing.

God's entire work is about raising children to become Gods.  That's why D&C 132 is so clear on this subject.

My brother is married with the choice not to have children. As is my BIL.  

IMO it’s not ok to judge what others want as less than.  We are all going to be happy where we end up.