Robert F. Smith Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: In skimming the article it appears contradictory. For example, it says that it only requires God to keep it but as the same time it says people can declare themselves outside the covenant. That make staying in conditional. The Abrahamic Covenant is quite exclusve so far as personal identification is concerned. However, even those opting out are still blessed by it (Gen 12:3 "shall all families of the earth be blessed"). God is not saying, as he does in the Nephite Covenant, that only by obedience to His commandments will they prosper in the land (conditional), but rather that He guarantees His covenant to Abraham and his descendants no matter what they do (unconditional). Indeed, God even makes it clear later that He does this not because of righteous action by His chosen people, but He does it because they are His elect (Deut 9:5, Jacob 5, Romans 11). Link to comment
CV75 Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Elder D. Todd Christofferson, in his conference address, just drew an important distinction: God’s love is unconditional, but that does not mean His blessings and salvation are unconditional. Of course, this distinction is conditional on context and semantics. I think we need to apply a couple (or 3) principles when we discuss insights shared by General Conference speakers: #1: Listen with the desire to understand the Lord's (and speaker's) intent and application rather than with the hope of finding a flaw in the statement, a discrepancy from other talks, or a hammer to hit others with. #2: Don't overlook the good to be found by rehearsing #1. #3: Enhance #1 and #2 by allowing the Lord to lead they way to spiritual discovery. I also think scholarly analysis, while a different animal altogether, is profitable and can complement spiritual discovery in a 2 Nephi 9:29 kind of way ("to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.") Edited October 2, 2021 by CV75 2 Link to comment
CV75 Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 (edited) edit Edited October 2, 2021 by CV75 Link to comment
Maidservant Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) Our living is also the fruit. If we live according to integrity, our blessing IS integrity. If we live according to love, our blessing IS love. If we live serving our family, our blessing IS our family. If we choose to cultivate a firm mind that sees what is good and God, we will be surrounded by good and God. Blessings are not meted out by someone outside of ourselves. We are given the principles and invited to participate in our own planting and our own harvest. The love and the blessings are always there--always accessible by our own recognition and preparation. Edited October 3, 2021 by Maidservant 4 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 While true I find it deeply weird that some people are so passionate about this principle and love to point it out endlessly. I am not talking about the apostles but the members who seem to find it somehow personally fulfilling or something? I admit I have some uncharitable suspicions about why they do this. 3 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I admit I have some uncharitable suspicions about why they do this. As in making a big deal that blessings are conditional and therefore they focus on ‘blessings must be earned’ or worked for or some other version of “get off the couch, you lazy git!” motivational talk? Or more of reassuring oneself that others won’t get blessings the others don’t deserve so one can feel Heaven will be Fair…not in a beauty way, but justice? Which may be a version resulting from “I know I am going to be successful, so no one will get more blessings than I do as I deserve them” which might really come from “I deserve it all because of who I am” and the rest gets added so it doesn’t come across like selfishness and greed. Or something else? Edited October 3, 2021 by Calm Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 8 hours ago, Calm said: As in making a big deal that blessings are conditional and therefore they focus on ‘blessings must be earned’ or worked for or some other version of “get off the couch, you lazy git!” motivational talk? Or more of reassuring oneself that others won’t get blessings the others don’t deserve so one can feel Heaven will be Fair…not in a beauty way, but justice? Which may be a version resulting from “I know I am going to be successful, so no one will get more blessings than I do as I deserve them” which might really come from “I deserve it all because of who I am” and the rest gets added so it doesn’t come across like selfishness and greed. Or something else? A bit of all three. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am not sure that bowing to God means being repentant I don’t see how it would be otherwise. Confessing that Jesus is Christ would of necessity entail acknowledgement that His laws and commandments are just and, to the extent that our behavior and attitudes are out of harmony with them, we need to change. Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t see how it would be otherwise. Confessing that Jesus is Christ would of necessity entail acknowledgement that His laws and commandments are just and, to the extent that our behavior and attitudes are out of harmony with them, we need to change. Knowing that Jesus is the Christ does not necessarily mean one is repentant. The devils know that Jesus is the Christ, for example. Edited October 3, 2021 by bluebell 4 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t see how it would be otherwise. Confessing that Jesus is Christ would of necessity entail acknowledgement that His laws and commandments are just and, to the extent that our behavior and attitudes are out of harmony with them, we need to change. One can acknowledge that someone has power over one, but still hate that person and desire to be free. Hate is a sin though, so I imagine the Telestial Kingdom lacks hate, but not a lot of love for God there…at least not more than a superficial type. Edited October 3, 2021 by Calm 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Knowing that Jesus is the Christ does not necessarily mean one is repentant. The devils know that Jesus is the Christ, for example. But they have not bowed the knee. The scripture said every knee shall bow AND tongue confess. I see implied here both knowledge and humility. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: One can acknowledge that someone has power over one, but still hate that person and desire to be free. Again, every knee shall bow AND tongue confess. Humility combined with knowledge. Im not persuaded that the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will not love God. Edited October 3, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: While true I find it deeply weird that some people are so passionate about this principle and love to point it out endlessly. I am not talking about the apostles but the members who seem to find it somehow personally fulfilling or something? I admit I have some uncharitable suspicions about why they do this. 19 hours ago, Calm said: As in making a big deal that blessings are conditional and therefore they focus on ‘blessings must be earned’ or worked for or some other version of “get off the couch, you lazy git!” motivational talk? Or more of reassuring oneself that others won’t get blessings the others don’t deserve so one can feel Heaven will be Fair…not in a beauty way, but justice? Which may be a version resulting from “I know I am going to be successful, so no one will get more blessings than I do as I deserve them” which might really come from “I deserve it all because of who I am” and the rest gets added so it doesn’t come across like selfishness and greed. Or something else? 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: A bit of all three. To the extent this “deeply weird” phenomenon is a thing (and I’m not altogether persuaded it is), I submit a fourth option: urgent concern for others (especially one’s own loved ones) who might harbor an erroneous and perilous conception of God’s perfect and eternal love (which some call unconditional) to the effect that they think making and keeping sacred covenants is unnecessary. Edited October 4, 2021 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t see how it would be otherwise. Confessing that Jesus is Christ would of necessity entail acknowledgement that His laws and commandments are just and, to the extent that our behavior and attitudes are out of harmony with them, we need to change. That would be the rational response. I do not see any reason humanity would all respond rationally. It would be incredibly out of character to collectively do so. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: To the extent this “deeply weird” phenomenon is a thing (and I’m not altogether persuaded it is), I submit a fourth option: urgent concern for others (especially one’s own loved ones) who might harbor an erroneous and perilous conception of God’s perfect and eternal love (which some call unconditional) to the effect that making and keeping sacred covenants is unnecessary. I have seen it a lot along with the opposite and generally more dangerous preoccupation with suggesting that God blesses all indiscriminately regardless of their desires, works, etc. While the first proposition leads some to despair the latter leads to the much more dangerous state of complacency. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: That would be the rational response. I do not see any reason humanity would all respond rationally. It would be incredibly out of character to collectively do so. If you were to qualify that by saying “mortal humanity,” I might agree with you. I don’t entertain any thought that long into the eternities, our minds and hearts will be clouded by the earthly confusion that besets us here. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: If you were to qualify that by saying “mortal humanity,” I might agree with you. I don’t entertain any thought that long into the eternities, our minds and hearts will be clouded by the earthly confusion that besets us here. I suspect that is true of the exalted. I am less sure about the disembodied spirits or resurrected in general. If being in less fallen spheres led to a unity of rationality and choice I doubt Lucifer would have gotten the traction he did way before earthly confusion would have been an issue. Edited October 3, 2021 by The Nehor 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: I suspect that is true of the exalted. I am less sure about the disembodied spirits or resurrected in general. If being in less fallen spheres led to a unity of rationality and choice I doubt Lucifer would have gotten the traction he did way before earthly confusion would have been an issue. While not exalted, those in the lower kingdoms will nonetheless be partakers of glory (hence the terminology “three degrees of glory”). I suppose this glory will bring with it an understanding of the plan of salvation and their place in it. Bear in mind that all who enter mortality have already “kept their first estate” in that they rejected Lucifer and followed Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence. I suppose that when the veil is taken from their minds they will have a bright recollection of this, and they will fully confess Christ and His gospel. There will be no more quibbling or disputations. Those belong to this mortal condition, which, at that point, will be in the past. Edited October 4, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Bear in mind that all who enter mortality have already “kept their first estate” in that they rejected Satan and followed Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence. I suppose that when the veil is taken from their minds they will have a bright recollection of this, and they will fully confess Christ and His gospel. Would not the same happen to those who are born yet become of Perdition though? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calm said: Would not the same happen to those who are born yet become of Perdition though? I think there will be very, very few of those, of whom it has been said they are of the character that they would profess at noonday that the sun is not shining. From the King Follett sermon: “All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.” Edited October 4, 2021 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
california boy Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 3:22 PM, Scott Lloyd said: While not exalted, those in the lower kingdoms will nonetheless be partakers of glory (hence the terminology “three degrees of glory”). I suppose this glory will bring with it an understanding of the plan of salvation and their place in it. Bear in mind that all who enter mortality have already “kept their first estate” in that they rejected Lucifer and followed Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence. I suppose that when the veil is taken from their minds they will have a bright recollection of this, and they will fully confess Christ and His gospel. There will be no more quibbling or disputations. Those belong to this mortal condition, which, at that point, will be in the past. It is a little scary thinking that the people living on the earth now were the best of God's children. Makes you wonder what earth would have been like if Lucifer had not led a third of the worst spirits away from earth. 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 2:30 PM, Scott Lloyd said: But they have not bowed the knee. The scripture said every knee shall bow AND tongue confess. I see implied here both knowledge and humility. It could, but I don't know that it's a given. What about the sons of perdition? Are they exempt from the "every knee shall bow" stuff? Link to comment
ksfisher Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: It could, but I don't know that it's a given. What about the sons of perdition? Are they exempt from the "every knee shall bow" stuff? I would think that they are sons of perdition because they won't acknowledge the Savior. 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 21 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I would think that they are sons of perdition because they won't acknowledge the Savior. From what I've read, they acknowledge Him as the Savior and hate Him anyway. Link to comment
rongo Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, bluebell said: It could, but I don't know that it's a given. What about the sons of perdition? Are they exempt from the "every knee shall bow" stuff? According to Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball (probably getting it from Joseph Smith, in my view), sons of perdition will have their intelligence ripped apart from their spirit matter and physical matter, and will start over at the very beginning. If this is true, then I don't think they will bow the knee. I'd like to think that some of them have reconsidered and are repentant, but I don't know if that spares them from that fate. 1 Link to comment
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