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We have had several covid threads complete with dueling studies. I considered adding to one but thought this article and up to date stats might just give good info on comparing vaccinated  vs  unvaccinated folks . Alberta has a population of about 4.5 million and is about 70% vaccinated. It is currently experiencing a surge in Delta cases which is filling ICUs etc. Politicians are scrambling to cope. The link below shows the situation up to mid Sept. and compares by age group and vax status. It is worth careful study of the numbers in all the comparison charts. Yes , I know, stats can be eye glazing but they might also cut through the , let's just say , extracurricular info we get, 

These charts show how much more often unvaccinated Albertans are being hospitalized and dying from COVID-19 (msn.com)

Edited by strappinglad
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Hospital data can be misleading as the Atlantic admitted and those hospitalized could have minor covid symptoms while being positive and the deaths could be from other conditions.  We need more data to be able to say accurately what the cause of death was.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hospitalization-numbers-can-be-misleading/620062/

Israel shows that it is better to have been exposed and recovered than getting the vaccine:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

The CDC changed the way the vaccinated are tested, lowering the test to 28 cycles or less, while keeping the higher test for the unvaccinated.  Why did it do this?  Probably to skew the numbers away from how the vaccines are performing while continuing to populate the false positives among the unvaccinated.  I wonder if this is what is affecting the Canadian numbers?

https://newsrescue.com/cdc-quietly-deletes-guidance-virally-criticized-as-double-standard-for-reporting-breakthrough-cases/

Maybe some of these Canadian cases are really the flu as the PCR test cannot distinguish between covid and the flu?  The cdc article below discussed how the PCR test will no longer be used after the end of the year because it cannot distinguish between covid and the flu.  Perhaps this is where the missing flu cases went?

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

Then there is this zoom call with hospital administrators at a N. Carolina hospital plotting to hype the numbers to scare people into getting the vaccine:

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2021/09/13/watch-video-shows-hospital-staff-plotting-to-scare-the-public-on-covid-19-n1478281

https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/icu-nurse-drops-bomb-youre-being-lied-to/

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Israel shows that it is better to have been exposed and recovered than getting the vaccine:

It is better for future immunity of survivors, not necessarily the quality of life. “Recovered”being a key term in that sentence.

First there are all those who died from the infection, next there are those who have long Covid. Then there are those crippled by medical bills or who lost jobs due to the illness. Add in those who lost family or friends to the disease. 
 

Added:  Research also shows it may be even better to be both first infected and vaccinated.  So if you are pushing for better immunity, you should still be pushing for vaccination.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.25.21256049v1

Hopefully it is true for those who were vaccinated and then infected as well  

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

The article needs to be updated or corrected. Likely it was a glitch due to updating as there is currently a page with the same title the article claims is being redirected to a different page:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html

It also appears the pdf is here (I searched on the sentence they used):

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/105217/cdc_105217_DS1.pdf

Quote

The CDC changed the way the vaccinated are tested, lowering the test to 28 cycles or less, while keeping the higher test for the unvaccinated.  Why did it do this?  Probably to skew the numbers away from how the vaccines are performing while continuing to populate the false positives among the unvaccinated. 

Possibly, but it may be for another reason. 
 

From the cdc page:

Quote

For cases with a known RT-PCR cycle threshold (Ct) value, submit only specimens with Ct value ≤28 to CDC for sequencing. (Sequencing is not feasible with higher Ct values.)

The news rescue article does not provide a screenshot or link to demonstrate there is a difference for unvaccinated testing.  Given they appear to be wrong that the changes were removed from the website and a weird redirect was put in its place, with the implication this was meant to hide the changes, I would like to see documentation that it is actually different. 

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Then there is this zoom call with hospital administrators at a N. Carolina hospital plotting to hype the numbers to scare people into getting the vaccine

Not exactly as they were talking about adding to the current Covid hospitalization stats people no longer suffering from Covid itself, but were still hospitalized due to complications from Covid (think damage to lungs, brains, blood clots, etc).  If they were clear that they had changed their counting process and identified who they were including, I think that is a reasonable stat to show impact of Covid on hospital usage. 
 

Though I do think the one doctor went way into the zone of what Juliann calls Covid porn with the suggestion:

Quote

“I think we have to be more blunt, we have to be more forceful, we have to say something coming out, ‘you know you don’t get vaccinated, you know you’re going to die.’ I mean, let’s just be really blunt to these people.”


That (no vaccination=death) is ridiculous and completely false.

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/09/10/novant-health-issues-statement-leaked-internal-discussion-covid-19-patient-numbers/

Quote

Dr. Mary Rudyk, who previously served as Chief of Medical Staff for NHRMC, responds bluntly, saying she feels the hospital’s messaging needs to be “a little bit more scary for the public.” She then proposes including patients she characterizes as “post-COVID” in the hospital’s case count – the primary source of the outrage on social media.

After sorting through an apparent misunderstanding, Rudyk further explained her point: “… I think those are important numbers – the patients that are still in the hospital, that are off the COVID floor, but are still occupying the hospital for a variety of reasons.”

Shelbourn Stevens, who earlier this year was named president of NHRMC and the Coastal market, clarified Rudyk’s request, explaining that patients who were initially hospitalized with COVID-19 but are no longer positive for the virus are considered “recovered,” and are therefore removed from the hospital’s COVID-19 patient count.

“But I do think, from our standpoint, we would still consider them a COVID patient because they’re still healing,” Stevens said. 

 

Edited by Calm
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Harry Clark, you really need to stop relying on sources without doing additional research. I found most of the above within a minute of trying. Your credibility is suffering greatly due to your lack of double checking claims. 
 

Having said that, I do agree that we need better, more precise data. 
 

Clark:

Quote

Hospital data can be misleading as the Atlantic admitted and those hospitalized could have minor covid symptoms while being positive and the deaths could be from other conditions.  We need more data to be able to say accurately what the cause of death was.

 

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Hospital data can be misleading as the Atlantic admitted and those hospitalized could have minor covid symptoms while being positive and the deaths could be from other conditions.  We need more data to be able to say accurately what the cause of death was.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hospitalization-numbers-can-be-misleading/620062/

Israel shows that it is better to have been exposed and recovered than getting the vaccine:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

The CDC changed the way the vaccinated are tested, lowering the test to 28 cycles or less, while keeping the higher test for the unvaccinated.  Why did it do this?  Probably to skew the numbers away from how the vaccines are performing while continuing to populate the false positives among the unvaccinated.  I wonder if this is what is affecting the Canadian numbers?

https://newsrescue.com/cdc-quietly-deletes-guidance-virally-criticized-as-double-standard-for-reporting-breakthrough-cases/

Maybe some of these Canadian cases are really the flu as the PCR test cannot distinguish between covid and the flu?  The cdc article below discussed how the PCR test will no longer be used after the end of the year because it cannot distinguish between covid and the flu.  Perhaps this is where the missing flu cases went?

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

Then there is this zoom call with hospital administrators at a N. Carolina hospital plotting to hype the numbers to scare people into getting the vaccine:

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2021/09/13/watch-video-shows-hospital-staff-plotting-to-scare-the-public-on-covid-19-n1478281

https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/icu-nurse-drops-bomb-youre-being-lied-to/

 

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21 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Here is an interesting video about heart problems from vaccines. What I got from it is, if giving a vaccine to kids between 12 and 18 , it seems the choice is the Pfizer and only 1 dose. I did not know that the moderna dose is 3 times more than the Pfizer. Perhaps that is why the Moderna is more effective in older adults. 

COVID Vaccine | Myocarditis Risk - YouTube

 

I would also choose Pfizer for my children.  2 doses are still recommended because immunity will wane much more rapidly with only 1 dose and it will have reduced efficacy.  According to the Canadian study discussed in this video (what was up with the cat?), case rates for myocarditis in the highest risk age group (18-24 years old) who received 2 doses of Pfizer are 37.4/million.  Case rates for Moderna are 263/million. 

Compare that to myocarditis rates from natural infection of 450/million:      

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/#:~:text=Researchers analysed the records of,450 cases per million infections.

While myocarditis can be serious, it is self-limiting - meaning there are no known long-term complications from vaccination.  Zero deaths reported.

A good risk vs benefit analysis comparing myocarditis to other risk factors from natural infection:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-06/05-COVID-Wallace-508.pdf

 

Edited by pogi
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I will delete if you would like but I've no where to turn, it's getting so bad. My nephew posted this video and said the below on FB, are there any facts to try to convince him otherwise? It all feels hopeless.  https://www.bitchute.com/video/Pz0SBTvKrDrV/?fbclid=IwAR2x7kxIOfFnYctrHQBeNtk6pJ8qsKIpRAbL8CtmYQ5kAxtazrclMxNSmUU

Everyone should take 15 minutes and watch this.. Fauci and the elite needed deaths from covid to create the pandemic. This is why China’s numbers were so much lower and why we had shutdowns. They preyed upon our elderly with a drug that was pulled from Ebola treatment because it killed more than 50% of the people who got the treatment... Fauci actually said in his own words that it was effective in treating Ebola😧🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️ Yet zero coverage in the media. We are dying to fit a fear narrative,,, And That Should Scare The **** Out Of All Of Us...

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

They preyed upon our elderly with a drug that was pulled from Ebola treatment because it killed more than 50% of the people who got the treatment

Do you have any hope that if you present him or others with studies they will be believed as factual?  Or do you just want information for your own comfort because you feel alone in your beliefs?

Remdesivir was pulled because it wasn’t as effective as two other drugs, not because it was killing people. 

Quote

A large Phase 3 study conducted in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, however, showed remdesivir to be less effective in preventing deaths from the virus than two other drugs, leaving Gilead's therapy with an uncertain future.

https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/coronavirus-remdesivir-gilead-antiviral-drug-covid-19/573261/

Are the same people in your family now trashing this drug also antivaccine or calling for permission to use ivermectin?  Iirc, in the past Fauci and others were panned for not quickly allowing Remdesivir to be widely used originally and instead insisting the proper clinical trials be performed. 

Edited by Calm
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The 50% death rate of those given Remdesivir in the clinical study was due to the 50% death rate of Ebola. Iow, the drug most likely didn’t kill them, Ebola did. If the drug killed them, the death rate would be more than 50%.

Only one participant likely died from side effects due to Remdesivir out of a likely 125 infected patients. They didn’t have a noninfected control group, but I assume death from Ebola is different from death from Remdesivir’s side effects so they could tell what the cause of death was. 

Quote

Three participants died of side effects thought to be related to treatment—two in the ZMapp group and one in the remdesivir group.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/two-drugs-reduce-risk-death-ebola

Added:  

Quote

Although in phase II it was not as effective as competitive drugs and clinical trials were terminated, remdesivir showed good safety and pharmacokinetics in both phases I and II clinical trials. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7151266/
 

If he continues to claim that Remdesivir kills 50% of its Ebola patients after you point out that Ebola kills 50% of those infected, you should ask for the clinical trials that show this to be true. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Are there any facts to try to convince him otherwise? It all feels hopeless.

Calm has once again lived up to her name and provided you with one response. I'm afraid that I just agree that it is hopeless. One of my American Facebook friends has been posting anti-vaccine stuff for weeks, possibly months. Just a few minutes ago, I saw from my Facebook news feed that her entire family now has Covid, and she is in hospital struggling to breathe even with oxygen. She said this is the sickest she's even been in her entire life, with pain she had never imagined before. And then she concluded by letting everyone know that she has zero regrets about 'exercising her right' not to be vaccinated ... :fool:

I am reminded of these verses in Mormon:

Quote

12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people.

13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.

14 And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God, and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives.

 

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you have any hope that if you present him or others with studies they will be believed as factual?  Or do you just want information for your own comfort because you feel alone in your beliefs?

Remdesivir was pulled because it wasn’t as effective as two other drugs, not because it was killing people. 

https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/coronavirus-remdesivir-gilead-antiviral-drug-covid-19/573261/

Are the same people in your family now trashing this drug who are antivaccine or calling for permission to use ivermectin?  Iirc, in the past Fauci and others were panned for not quickly allowing Remdesivir to be widely used originally and instead insisting the proper clinical trials be performed.

Not much hope and yes for myself as well, because I sometimes think I'm all alone and maybe I'm wrong and living in an alternate existence.

And @Hamba Tuhanhas it right, your answers are so helpful did calm me down. :-)

Thanks Hamba and I'm sorry for your American friend's situation and denial. :-(

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Just now, Tacenda said:

Thanks Hamba and I'm sorry for your American friend's situation and denial. 😞

Then you're a better person than I am. I find that I'm struggling to feel bad for the thousands of Americans who consciously choose this path and then seem to celebrate it -- all whilst racking up thousands and thousands of dollars in hospital expenses, both for themselves and for those with whom they share health funds.

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Tacenda, it must be exhausting to be surrounded by this irrationality.  May I ask why you just haven’t unfollowed or even blocked posts from these negative family members?  Or stay off FB completely?
 

If you have to read it to stay in touch with family, may I suggesting as soon as you see it relates to Covid or politics and not family, choose the “hide this post” option if it bothers you. You can choose one day a week or even one day a month to catch up on the latest criticisms if you believe you need to be aware of them, but reading day in and day out is going to create a sense of you being surrounded by negativity. Instead, focus on the positive stuff that goes on with your family….and if your family isn’t positive, find some friends or an interest that is positive and fun and refreshing and focus on that as much as you can to stay upbeat. 

Edited by Calm
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7 hours ago, Calm said:

Tacenda, it must be exhausting to be surrounded by this irrationality.  May I ask why you just haven’t unfollowed or even blocked posts from these negative family members?  Or stay off FB completely?
 

If you have to read it to stay in touch with family, may I suggesting as soon as you see it relates to Covid or politics and not family, choose the “hide this post” option if it bothers you. You can choose one day a week or even one day a month to catch up on the latest criticisms if you believe you need to be aware of them, but reading day in and day out is going to create a sense of you being surrounded by negativity. Instead, focus on the positive stuff that goes on with your family….and if your family isn’t positive, find some friends or an interest that is positive and fun and refreshing and focus on that as much as you can to stay upbeat. 

I wish social media didn't exist. The spreading of false information is causing so many problems. And these people will not tune into the nightly news as well. Thanks for the suggestions Calm. :)

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On 9/18/2021 at 1:36 PM, MiserereNobis said:

This is incorrect and you need to retract it. The CDC article does not say the test cannot distinguish between the two. It says that it would be best if the new testing method was able to detect Covid and the flu, to save time and resources. Wouldn’t it be great to have one test that will tell you if you have Covid, flu, or neither, rather than take two separate tests? That is what the article is about.

Stop spreading misinformation.

Here is what was said by the CDC from the alert I cited:

Quote

CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses.

The test is changing.  Why?  It would obviously be better to have a test that could differentiate between Sars and the Flu.  That is a no brainer.  However, the one used currently cannot.  It never could.

This is from the cdc guidlines on administration of the commonly and currently used test, pg. 37, last bullet point, under the "Limitations" heading: 

Quote

This test cannot rule out diseases caused by other bacterial or viral pathogens.

https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download

This isn't fake news or misinformation.  The current test simply cannot rule out disases caused by other bacterial or viral pathogens, like the flu.  So, is it a big leap to think that perhaps there were some false positives over time that were actually the flu?

People lie.  Corporation heads lie.  The media lies.  Commenters on blog posts lie.  Companies hire media influencers to attack counternarratives on social media.  Sometimes bots are used. 

Is it possible that some government officials lie?  I'm sure you will agree that Trump was certainly capable of lying and probably did a bunch.  Perhaps there are those in the CDC, currently, and other agencies that are lying on behalf of Pharma?  Is that possible or no?

I think the goal should be to get at the truth, given how untrustworthy people are, given how money can corrupt scientists and government officials alike.  The trick is to take a look at the information presented and learn how statements can be made in such a way as to mislead.  In this case, there certainly is a change in the test that couldn't eliminate the possibility that a positive test came from something other than sars-cov-2.  It says so in the very protocol instructions that the CDC put out.

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16 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

 

This isn't fake news or misinformation.  The current test simply cannot rule out disases caused by other bacterial or viral pathogens, like the flu.  So, is it a big leap to think that perhaps there were some false positives over time that were actually the flu?

 

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/08-02-2021-lab-alert-Clarifications_about_Retirement_CDC_2019_Novel_Coronavirus_1.html

That is not the current test, that is the test that received emergency use in Feb 2020, and it is still being used in some places, but multiple tests are being used that can differentiate…

it seems like an insincere question to ask why they are replacing a test when you mention the reason why it needs to be replaced with the better alternatives.

In your narrative, who is behind the COVID situation and why? 

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