Uptick in GenZ / Millennial apostasy?

[blueglass]

For my kids I had them read the book of mormon before they graduated from primary.  If they wanted a cell phone they had to read bushmans rough stone rolling and get a 80% or higher on the written exam.  I thought the key to helping them stay in the faith was a blend of inoculation and strong activity in the church.  The problem became how to correlate the fields of truth from history, science and religion.  I failed.  It hasn't gone well.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

For my kids I had them read the book of mormon before they graduated from primary.  If they wanted a cell phone they had to read bushmans rough stone rolling and get a 80% or higher on the written exam.  I thought the key to helping them stay in the faith was a blend of inoculation and strong activity in the church.  The problem became how to correlate the fields of truth from history, science and religion.  I failed.  It hasn't gone well.  

I think this is like saying the Lord's grace failed. We know it did not, and neither did you. I assume you did your best in good faith. Everyone parents differently in matters of spirituality and religion. I think the love and peace of Christ first prevents some, but heals all, wounds.

[Canadiandude]

 

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Are you saying a) that non-rational processes are metaphysical, or b) that they have no functional relationship to rational cognition? If the word "spirituality" gives you heartburn, replace it with the idea of having a concern for non-materialistic aspects of your relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning.

Why do you equate encouragement with force?

Why is deconstructing belief the only consequence of critical examination?

How can you reject a point do not see? That seems to be an irrationally based reaction.

 

I believe in methodological naturalism. That values do not require the existence of deity, spirits, angels, spirituality etc.

Ethics & Values require some measure of prioritization that require explanation & reasoning. I never said that all ultra-rationality is inappropriate, only that ethics can indeed be contended without the necessary existence of the supernatural, which you might’ve taken to mean anything beyond the rational. 
 

 

I was forced out of the closet. My parents decided to tell all of my family & friends about my sexuality without my consent, after I hooked up with a guy who became my boyfriend, and was excommunicated for my decision to not go through the repentance process.

My privacy was lost. I was not ready yet to share my relationship or church status.
 

Encouragement can be forceful, pushy, invade personal boundaries. Ex, less active & nonmembers need to be aware that ultimately people shouldn’t be pressured by us to leave the church, even if they lean that you. You can suggest that it’s an option, explain the benefits/costs in your or others’ lives, but always, always check in to make sure that you aren’t crossing personal boundaries. Figuring out those boundaries beforehand would help so as to ensure one isn’t being too pushy.

Deconstruction is a necessary element of critical thinking, not nec the entirety of critical thinking. Without re-examining one’s ontological and other assumptions, and being frank about the strengths & weaknesses of these, then it becomes difficult for others to take seriously one’s truth claims.

My own journey outside the faith was incentivized by my slow realization that as a gay man, if the church was false- then not only have I sacrificed a lot of my own happiness & sense of personal fulfillment for the comfort & dominance of a powerful & pernicious system, but also would have sustained a system that also marginalized & harmed many other individuals/groups as well.

Feelings that I (had previously) attributed to Holy Ghost just weren’t enough, and it was difficult to establish any sense of validity & reliability in terms of what these ‘meant’.

So, I decided to examine what could be tested & corroborated, historical accounts, the scientific evidence and what theories they best support so far, & consequences of the system within which I grew up and had fervently believed.

I then made my decision. And I don’t regret it. I have a much greater sense of clarity now than I had before.

 

Edit: People often don’t leave the church alone because it still seeks to undermine & marginalize a lot of the interests & values of those that leave- such as marriage equality, abortion rights, etc.

Also, to someone else’s point- why would we expect people that escape  a system they conceive as harmful, to be silent, or not seek to change such a system and hold it accountable?

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Canadiandude
Meant methodological naturalism

[Canadiandude]

This channel I found pretty helpful as I experienced my own personal crisis.

feel free (or not) to check it out.

 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCprs0DXUS-refN1i8FkQkdg

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

 

I believe in methodological naturalism. That values do not require the existence of deity, spirits, angels, spirituality etc.

Ethics & Values require some measure of prioritization that require explanation & reasoning. I never said that all ultra-rationality is inappropriate, only that ethics can indeed be contended without the necessary existence of the supernatural, which you might’ve taken to mean anything beyond the rational. 
 

 

I was forced out of the closet. My parents decided to tell all of my family & friends about my sexuality without my consent, after I hooked up with a guy who became my boyfriend, and was excommunicated for my decision to not go through the repentance process.

My privacy was lost. I was not ready yet to share my relationship or church status.
 

Encouragement can be forceful, pushy, invade personal boundaries. Ex, less active & nonmembers need to be aware that ultimately people shouldn’t be pressured by us to leave the church, even if they lean that you. You can suggest that it’s an option, explain the benefits/costs in your or others’ lives, but always, always check in to make sure that you aren’t crossing personal boundaries. Figuring out those boundaries beforehand would help so as to ensure one isn’t being too pushy.

Deconstruction is a necessary element of critical thinking, not nec the entirety of critical thinking. Without re-examining one’s ontological and other assumptions, and being frank about the strengths & weaknesses of these, then it becomes difficult for others to take seriously one’s truth claims.

My own journey outside the faith was incentivized by my slow realization that as a gay man, if the church was false- then not only have I sacrificed a lot of my own happiness & sense of personal fulfillment for the comfort & dominance of a powerful & pernicious system, but also would have sustained a system that also marginalized & harmed many other individuals/groups as well.

Feelings that I (had previously) attributed to Holy Ghost just weren’t enough, and it was difficult to establish any sense of validity & reliability in terms of what these ‘meant’.

So, I decided to examine what could be tested & corroborated, historical accounts, the scientific evidence and what theories they best support so far, & consequences of the system within which I grew up and had fervently believed.

I then made my decision. And I don’t regret it. I have a much greater sense of clarity now than I had before.

 

Edit: People often don’t leave the church alone because it still seeks to undermine & marginalize a lot of the interests & values of those that leave- such as marriage equality, abortion rights, etc.

Also, to someone else’s point- why would we expect people that escape  a system they conceive as harmful, to be silent, or not seek to change such a system and hold it accountable?

Ok, so you are defining "spiritual / spirituality" in a very specific way. How about expanding it a little to entail the idea of the non-materialistic aspects of your relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning?

Yes, deconstruction is an important a part of analysis and critical thinking but is not synonymous with destruction. Deconstruction of belief is not its destruction; often it is quite supportive.

I've not been asking people for "exit stories" since I do understand the reasons. As noted in more detail a few posts above, I am trying to get to this one simple question: "What have you found that this great enough to share?" as opposed to  "What have you found that is great enough to fight against ("not leave alone"), change and hold accountable?"

Edited September 26, 2021 by CV75

[Canadiandude]

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

Ok, so you are defining "spiritual / spirituality" in a very specific way. How about expanding it a little to entail the idea of the non-materialistic aspects of your relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning?

My thanks  for your understanding. As to the latter, I guess my question is: why?

Why should these latter considerations fall under spirituality?

I mean this not as an attack, but now that I’ve realized the good beyond the spiritual, as well as the bad that is sometimes as a result of it, I no longer feel any necessity to spirituality in my life.

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, deconstruction is an important a part of analysis and critical thinking but is not synonymous with destruction. Deconstruction of belief is not its destruction; often it is quite supportive.

What is destruction? Deconstruction? Creation or even change.

These processes that are not necessarily good nor bad. Destruction & creation are very much a part of each-another. 

To de-construct something literally means to break down & examine, its component parts: seeing the strengths and weaknesses of these parts and the kinds of evidence to support them.

We must also examine whose interests and values these also serve in the context of larger systems of power- and at whose expense.

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

I've not been asking people for "exit stories" since I do understand the reasons. As noted in more detail a few posts above, I am trying to get to this one simple question: "What have you found that this great enough to share?" as opposed to  "What have you found that is great enough to fight against ("not leave alone"), change and hold accountable?"

I’m not entirely convinced of this sorry. Furthermore, I wished to add my voice in support of the user you were questioning. Our exit stories & the reasons behind them are very much a part of those larger questions.

I’m not so certain as to why holding accountable a harmful institution & system  that one was a part of, can be divorced from the good positive things those involved in this fight have to offer instead.

institutional accountability. transparency. Gender & sexual equality. Bodily autonomy. Historical accuracy. To name a few.

We fight because muskets remain pointed & firing at our new found/forged realizations and values.

We are again in the midst of much societal upheaval and it’s been a long way coming.

Destruction; Creation; Change. 

Edit: forgive the language but this song has been on my mind today.

We are truly a glorious & Chosen Generation.
 

Though perhaps in ways unexpected by our watchmen on the tower.
 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Canadiandude
Found a clean version for this forum.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

My thanks  for your understanding. As to the latter, I guess my question is: why?

Why should these latter considerations fall under spirituality?

I mean this not as an attack, but now that I’ve realized the good beyond the spiritual, as well as the bad that is sometimes as a result of it, I no longer feel any necessity to spirituality in my life.

What is destruction? Deconstruction? Creation or even change.

These processes that are not necessarily good nor bad. Destruction & creation are very much a part of each-another. 

To de-construct something literally means to break down & examine, its component parts: seeing the strengths and weaknesses of these parts and the kinds of evidence to support them.

We must also examine whose interests and values these also serve in the context of larger systems of power- and at whose expense.

I’m not entirely convinced of this sorry. Furthermore, I wished to add my voice in support of the user you were questioning. Our exit stories & the reasons behind them are very much a part of those larger questions.

I’m not so certain as to why holding accountable a harmful institution & system  that one was a part of, can be divorced from the good positive things those involved in this fight have to offer instead.

institutional accountability. transparency. Gender & sexual equality. Bodily autonomy. Historical accuracy. To name a few.

We fight because muskets remain pointed & firing at our new found/forged realizations and values.

We are again in the midst of much societal upheaval and it’s been a long way coming.

Destruction; Creation; Change. 

Edit: forgive the language but this song has been on my mind today.

We are truly a glorious & Chosen Generation.
 

Though perhaps in ways unexpected by our watchmen on the tower.
 

 

The non-materialistic aspects of your relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning don’t have to fall under the term “spirituality.” If the terms “ethics and values” covers them, these have the same pitfalls as spirituality and are also subject to non-rational influences, biases and beliefs.

The destruction of one belief is typically replaced with another, which presumably is good, and both have presumably been deconstructed in the process.

I find it interesting that you are not convinced that I am asking this question, and that you continue repeating a narrative that falls short of answering it. While that may be  what you want, it is not what you have, unless all you have is "want."

[Analytics]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:37 AM, CV75 said:

I am trying to get to this one simple question: "What have you found that this great enough to share?" 

One of my favorite hymns is, "Oh Say, What is Truth?" Learning the actual truth about big, real, things is exhilarating and great enough to share. To that end, here are the standard works I'd place in my Quad:

The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself by Sean Carroll

Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steven Pinker

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari

The Demon-haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

 

[Teancum]

On 9/20/2021 at 4:40 PM, Maestrophil said:

I didn't choose this quote as the only one I am addressing here, but rather to just single you out to ask some real sincere questions as a member and parent who wants to be better while still maintaining my faith and membership.

To respond to the OP question - yes I have seen this trend among the generation spoken of, and those a little older and younger as well.  It makes me sad and concerned at the same time.  Especially as a parent who has over half his children in full rejection mode of the church (4 of 6), and the remaining children in a very 'slightly' LDS mode (2).  None served missions (and I never condemned them for their decisions to not go).

So what do you recommend a person like me - a GenX dad who is active and believing - can do to improve the experience for my kids and to have them either return to faith, or feel less bitter towards the church?  It's an honest question.  I express continually that I love and accept them even if they live very different standards than I do, and I honestly think none of them doubt they are loved by my wife and I.  Still - the 4 who have left activity are very demeaning and dismissive when talking about the church and even its members.

So what more can be done? Especially given that:

 - I don't think the church will ever change chastity definitions to allow for any kind of sanctioned sexual relations between homosexual individuals.

 - I won't join in with any badmouthing or condemnation of the 1st Presidency or Q12.  I can have respectable dialog about feelings and reactions to their words and policies, but will always stop short of accusing them of being racist, homophobic, or liars.

What do you suggest from your perspective?  Is there truly anything a member/parent like myself can do, or is the gulf too wide and the hatred/resentment of the church too definite?  Could your family/ward/stake have done anything different to make it so you had a better outcome and disposition towards the church - or do you think the fact that the church has the truth claims it does simply force a gulf and you would have felt disillusioned regardless?

I don't have all the solutions but when I was a believing member I had inactive kids. I just loved them. And let them know I did. I did not talk about the church to them unless they brought it up.  If they made angry or snarky remarks. I would try to acknowledge their feelings. But I also placed up some boundaries and asked them to respect my beliefs just as I was trying to respect theirs. 

It did not always work well and there were times of anger on both sides.  But it did help most of the time.  

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

One of my favorite hymns is, "Oh Say, What is Truth?" Learning the actual truth about big, real, things is exhilarating and great enough to share. To that end, here are the standard works I'd place in my Quad:

The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself by Sean Carroll

Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steven Pinker

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari

The Demon-haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

 

Hey, at least that's an answer! Thank you for sharing!

I've enjoyed a couple of these books myself, but only to the point of sharing an occasional mention or recommendation. I can't say I base the non-materialistic aspects of my relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning on them.

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Hey, at least that's an answer! Thank you for sharing!

I've enjoyed a couple of these books myself, but only to the point of sharing an occasional mention or recommendation. I can't say I base the non-materialistic aspects of my relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning on them.

You are welcome!

I'm not sure exactly what "non-materialistic aspects" of relationships, values, and purpose/meaning actually means, and I wouldn't say that I base my values on those things. What I can say is that when I finished each of these books, I felt like I really understood the nature of reality and my place in the world better than I did before. The compass of humanism and the map of science are superlative tools for navigating life.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Analytics said:

You are welcome!

I'm not sure exactly what "non-materialistic aspects" of relationships, values, and purpose/meaning actually means, and I wouldn't say that I base my values on those things. What I can say is that when I finished each of these books, I felt like I really understood the nature of reality and my place in the world better than I did before. The compass of humanism and the map of science are superlative tools for navigating life.

I agree, but of course, that depends on the brand and quality of the tools. My reference to the non-material aspects of relationships, values, and life purpose/meaning was a reference to the humanistic and scientific definitions of spirituality since that word meant something else to my interlocutor at the time.

[Maestrophil]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I don't have all the solutions but when I was a believing member I had inactive kids. I just loved them. And let them know I did. I did not talk about the church to them unless they brought it up.  If they made angry or snarky remarks. I would try to acknowledge their feelings. But I also placed up some boundaries and asked them to respect my beliefs just as I was trying to respect theirs. 

It did not always work well and there were times of anger on both sides.  But it did help most of the time.  

 

Thanks for sharing that experience.  More than anything, I want them all to know they are truly loved - and that one isn't earned or last by belief or lack thereof.  

[bOObOO]

4 hours ago, Analytics said:

One of my favorite hymns is, "Oh Say, What is Truth?" Learning the actual truth about big, real, things is exhilarating and great enough to share. To that end, here are the standard works I'd place in my Quad:

The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself by Sean Carroll

Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steven Pinker

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari

The Demon-haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

 

None of those 4 would refer to the life beyond this mortal life for each of us, though, would they?  Or the premortal life we had before we each became mortal?  Intel about those aspects of my life are the treasures God gives to me through my religion.

And a lack of intel about those aspects of my life, summing up what can be observed only from mortal life, would leave me craving the intel I value and would want the most. What I really am based on WHO I came from. And all I can become.

Edited September 27, 2021 by bOObOO

[Canadiandude]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Hey, at least that's an answer!

<raised eyebrow>
 

[Teancum]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:32 PM, rongo said:

Often, a lot of the judgment people feel coming from the Church/Church members is in their heads

Balony.

[Teancum]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:55 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

The below video showed up on my recommended list today. It's a pretty well-thought-out response to the OP and so many other comments on this thread.

Jacob has published on the psychology of polarising political movements, and his insight that people like Dehlin and his ilk are using the same methods to stir up the same kinds of fear, hatred and suspicion is powerful, in my opinion.

I thought this video was AWFUL. And the dude speaks with a creepy gooie voice. And his arguments were weak. With approaches like these its no wonder so many young people are leaving.

[Vanguard]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:13 PM, Maestrophil said:

I definitely am not saying that you haven’t experienced those things and that former members don’t experience judgment from members. I am just saying I think there is some truth to some people seeing judgment when it isn’t intended. I am sure there have been times when things I have done might’ve come across as judgmental when I didn’t intend them that way. 

That's exactly right. There are myriad reasons behind why individuals respond the way they do. Some reasons are not healthy and some are entirely understandable and without malice. IMO, many who have recently left the faith seem more prone to concluding nefarious purposes behind why others now (or seem to) avoid them. It makes sense they would conclude this considering the emotional fracture they have gone through. But simply drawing this conclusion is not sufficient to claim this is the case without stepping into the member's head and reading their thoughts and feelings. Ironically, it's quite a bit of judgmentalism coming from the former believer - a judgmentalism that they decry when they believe it is being used against them.  

[Teancum]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:07 AM, ttribe said:

I have said several times to friends and loved ones that I am not interested in trying to proselytize them out of the church.  It was an incredibly painful thing to go through.  I will answer questions, if they have them, but I won't actively try to send them down the path I went.

I pretty much take the same approach.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Balony.

Given it is common for people in general to believe others are judging them when the others are more likely obsessing about themselves, why would it be different for exmembers?

Edited September 28, 2021 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I thought this video was AWFUL.

I'm not surprised.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

I thought this video was AWFUL. And the dude speaks with a creepy gooie voice. And his arguments were weak. With approaches like these its no wonder so many young people are leaving.

I agree, especially when he mentions that we were deceived by the devil. And not once does he address the issues. And my issue with the church at the beginning was learning of Joseph's way of living polygamy or even that he lived it. And that is a known fact in the LDS church, so not a lie at all. He does show the weight on the backs of those that struggle, but many of us don't just leave ASAP, it takes years of research, prayer, fasting, even attending the temple to find answers besides the podcasts with Dehlin or ?

This Jacob may think he's helping but he's not to the faithful person that sees the video and then checks out the podcasts by Dehlin and others. It will open up the door to doubt. I didn't immediately doubt when I learned of Joseph's polygamy, I just went on Fair, don't know how I even learned of it, something popped up online, like the information of Joseph's wives. And I researched and found more things no one told me. 

I see a sadness from Jacob, feel quite sorry for the guy. I hope he can move on, like he maybe thinks others need to move on. And I'm sure he misses his friend too. But just think this guy isn't a good example of the light of Christ. And that's not good for a faithful LDS to see. 

Like I mentioned elsewhere on the board today, it isn't good for faithful leaders or members to bring up those that leave or struggle, it just brings up difficult subjects for the faithful and may start their rabbit hole. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This Jacob may think he's helping but he's not to the faithful person that sees the video and then checks out the podcasts by Dehlin and others. It will open up the door to doubt.

I think you may be projecting.

As Dr Hess points out, podcasts from Dehlin and his fellow travellers are no different in nature or desired outcome than podcasts claiming that Covid is a giant fraud. In neither case does exposure automatically result in being suckered.

[Snodgrassian]

I think it is important to remember happiness is not the same for everyone. I used to not understand why someone, especially married couples would choose to not have children. Then, when I had my first child, I knew that being a parent is not for everyone, it was the correct decision for me, but I now can fully understand and not judge people who choose a life without kids. 

Belief in God is a similar aspect of life, especially in a religion like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My current position in the church is the right one for me, but not for everyone else. My identity has never been fully intertwined with the Church. I grew up without any friends that were members, though I did a pretty dang good job living the standards. Served a mission, attended BYU, got married in the temple... I fully believed, loved reading about the Church, teaching lessons, fulfilling my callings, including leadership. I loved my singles ward experience here on the coast, it provided me with a strong foundation when i moved to the area, a thing most of my colleagues did not have and took them years to build up. 

But things change. I don't talk about many of my personally feelings or experiences with others unless i see them struggling and they need someone to talk to. The journey of a change in belief is a personal one, that is unique to the individual. I think it is an unfair statement to ask "if it is so great, why don't you openly discuss it with everyone." I did that as a missionary, that was my job at the time. But even in my strongest moments, i never forced the church as the reason for my happiness on those around me. It is not appropriate and never really is appropriate, unless someone asks. 

I have never been happier, my family is doing great, and yet I live my life in a way that is not in full sync with the gospel. My professional life is booming, my kids are constantly engaged in activities that they love. We have longterm friendships that are not based on ward boundaries. I have had the time to figure out who I am as a person and help my children learn to truly love their neighbors. It has been difficult, grandparents teach the gospel, and it truly has caused some issues, especially when issues with race and sexuality come up. But all in all, I have a much more diverse and fulfilling life, filled with peaks and valleys and I could never see myself going back to the life I had before. 

 

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not surprised.

Really it was not compelling at all and a enough lack of logic in his argument to drive a truck through.  But hey keep putting stuff like this out there and keep seeing the bleeding of the flock.