Jump to content

Idaho Bishop Released, Charged with Abuse


Recommended Posts

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

If we are accepting with this analogy that God really does exist and that He truly is "good" - then God's morality trumps yours.  He decides what is satisfactory and what is good.  Obedience to him puts you in-line with a higher morality, one which lead God to intervene and save Abraham's son.  

I think there needs to be some level of understanding about why God's incomprehensible morality (in such a case) would trump the other. What are the ethics of it? Without explanation and understanding it's just a "because I told you so" kind of situation which really doesn't work for parents once their children are able to reason.

Link to comment
57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

"Obey God" is an extremely unsatisfactory system of morality.

It's a succinct statement, not a "system of morality."  

I could say "keep the commandments" and still be easily understood.  The "commandments" are, in my view, kind of like the "Common Law" in Anglo-American jurisprudence.  That is, a body of principles that are broadly, but not perfectly, well-defined and easy to understand.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

If God commanded you to literally sacrifice one of your children on an alter would you do it? I wouldn't--I'd rather be moral than obey God.

I reject the premise, namely, that "morality" is distinguishable from obeying God.  Joseph Smith put it:

Quote

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.

Regarding Abraham's ostensible sacrifice, I think this article does a good job of summing things up.

“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”  (AoF 1:12.)  I concede that there are theoretical, extreme situations in which deliberately disobeying the law can be morally just (the classic "Jews in the Attic" conundrum being a good example).  However, the vast majority of the time obeying secular law is the way to go.

I think this situation is substantially compounded relative to obedience to God.  I think very few of us will ever need to grapple with a genuine moral condundrum, such as Abraham's test, Nephi's slaying of Laban, and so on.  I think you are trying to argue from the margins.  You are invoking an extreme and unlikely "what if" application of the rule as an argument to negate the entirety of the rule.  I don't think that works.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Personally, I could care less whether a master entrusts some of his investment portfolio to a money manager who has an investment style that is too conservative for the master. If the master doesn't make as much on his diversified portfolio as he wanted to, then so what? I'm not going to call him a hypocritical jerk.

It sounds like the way you interpret this passage is that the individual talents of money represent actual human beings. The money not being invested wisely represents actual human beings being subjected to evil and harm.

No.  I'm saying that the passage ought to be read in context.  I'm saying that the master's absence was part of the deal.  I'm saying that the servants had the choice.  And so on.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Previously, I was suggesting that the way Mormons get out of the Problem of Evil is to say that God not intervening is for the greater good--from a higher perspective, bad things happening in this realm aren't really bad--it's all just part of the test.

No, I don't think we deny that bad things happen.  Rather, we believe that "through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."  (AoF 1:3.)  See also my previous Hugh Nibley quote.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Based on your interpretation of the Parable of the Talents, it sounds like you get out of the Problem of Evil by saying God isn't omnipotent and isn't omniscient--God trusts people "according to their several ability", and if they let Him down, he doesn't have the power to intervene. 

No, I'm not saying that.  Or anything like it.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

In any event, I'm not foisting any beliefs on you.

You are attempting to foist a substantial mischaracterization of our beliefs onto us.

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Rather, I'm articulating an uncomfortable implication of Mormon belief that most latter-day saints choose to ignore.

And yet here I am, having a discussion about implications and such.

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think there needs to be some level of understanding about why God's incomprehensible morality (in such a case) would trump the other. 

He was setting up a hypothetical scenario.  The logic is in the if-then scenario.  If God is absolutely good/right, then His morality trumps all.  It is a self-evident truth. 

I agree that there needs to be some level of understanding.  It is our labor to prove the if for ourselves by planting the seed.  It is not an understanding that can be transmitted through words in an internet forum. 

Link to comment
On 9/16/2021 at 6:55 PM, The Nehor said:

Okay, I have to ask. Are there really hordes of people who are testifying about God helping them find their car keys?

I have heard a story like that once that I can remember and it was a legitimate crisis due to a woman going into labor and they couldn’t find the car keys to get her to the hospital and they lived pretty far out and no one nearby could reasonably assist in time.

I mean, maybe it the equivalent of the crazy person I knew in one ward who would bear her testimony about things like angels rearranging her bathroom mirrors and how she baptized her pet bird and would occasionally break out into song at which point the woman she lived with would stand up in front of the pulpit and apologize and say that she is crazy.

I miss that ward sometimes…….

I don't know about those hordes of people with key-find stories, but my wife and I have one. I shan't trot it out, but we were grateful for finding the darned keys, and it seemed at the time to be at least slightly miraculous. I don't know why people disparage such stories. They seem to be the kind of small miracle that lead people to learn to trust the Lord in small things, so that perhaps they will then trust the Lord in larger things.

The bird baptism reminds of a story I heard on my mission. It seems there was a man walking down a street when he spied a young boy digging two small holes in his front yard. By the time he reached the boy's yard, the boy had just finished filling one hole with water, but left the other one dry. The man asked him, "What are you doing?" To which the boy replied "I'm baptizing my cat." The man was puzzled so asked why the boy had dug two holes but filled only one with water. The answer was: "Well, first I baptize him in the water, and then in the hole he goes."

 

Edited by Stargazer
Link to comment
2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've heard it suggested before, slightly differently than what you're saying, that God lets atrocities happen so that those individuals will receive proper judgement. But for a God who "knows the heart" of each person, I don't know why he would need to let an atrocity happen to hold someone accountable. If they have a black heart, they have a black heart, whether or not they were thwarted. Do some people need to commit an atrocity so that they hit rock bottom and can then repent. Maybe...I guess. But I'd expect there are other ways people could be humbled without their jackassery being allowed to thwart someone else's agency.

In my case, I believe in limited omniscience and limited omnipotence, not TULIP absolute omniscience and omnipotence. I also favor the Skousen eternal intelligences explanation for the why of the plan of salvation (and why it couldn't be any other way, and is what has always been done before, worlds without end). For me, then, it's not enough for God to "know the heart" of each person and have that be enough. That's like law enforcement in Minority Report punishing criminals for crimes they haven't committed, but are going to commit. With the source of God's power being the honor the eternal intelligences have for Him (and absolute faith He would never do anything unjust), judging people for having a "black heart" without them doing any "black-hearted" things would be cause for complaints about unjustness. 

I don't personally believe God would put a person in a position to commit atrocities so that they could repent (say, a bishop who will abuse children). Perish the thought! 

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I find your analogy of acceptable collateral damage extremely sad. 

It is extremely sad. I've been thinking about suffering in general over the millennia --- not just modern sex crimes. It's mind-boggling how some of our brothers and sisters who kept their first estate act when the veil of forgetfulness is upon them in mortality. That could only be shown to everyone (including themselves) on the mortal stage, with the veil. I don't think any one of them would believe it if they were told that in the pre-existence. 

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So the question for me would be, why would God make it so challenging to understand him. If so much relies on the pre-existence, yet we know very little about that, why doesn't he intervene and explain? It could be done very clearly. But it's not. Why? To test loyalty and faith? We see through a glass darkly because it's dark by design. I don't know any parent who would interact with a child that way. I don't know any parent who would continually require tests of loyalty, even when the information and/or messenger are deeply flawed. 

I think we've known more about the pre-existence in the past, but we as an institutional church have jettisoned some of it in favor of ignorance and ambiguity for PR/PC reasons --- while trying to keep a lot of it to believe that we are Warriors "held in reserve," saved for Saturday. :) I also don't think He has made it challenging to understand Him --- I think modern sensibilities and philosophical trends make past explanations and philosophies harder for people to accept --- and not because the old explanations are dumb and the new ones are more enlightened and rational. Satan knows what he's doing, and is effective at trying to sandbag as many people in this time as possible. Unbelief and skepticism are the default setting in our day, and that informs age old problems like the problem of evil. 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know about those hordes of people with key-find stories, but my wife and I have one. I shan't trot it out, but we were grateful for finding the darned keys, and it seemed at the time to be at least slightly miraculous. I don't know why people disparage such stories. They seem to be the kind of small miracle that lead people to learn to trust the Lord in small things, so that perhaps they will then trust the Lord in larger things.

Trust suggests an expectation that God can be relied upon to always help in that way. That seems like a setup to disappointment.

Link to comment
9 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

hink a better analogy would be your daughter getting sick. She needs help. Take her to the doctor, help her be healed. Day after day she pleads with you. In response you say nothing. You do nothing. She dies. 

I think a better analogy is my daughter is three years old, bedridden, in constant discomfort and even severe pain at times, unable to hear or see well and her brain is unable to develop in some ways so she doesn’t understand much of what I tell her, though I am always talking to her and telling her of good times to come and giving her what comfort she can understand. I am doing all I can to ease her pain, including preparing for a way in which she can not only be healed of her pain, but for her to have a full and glorious life without limits.  If I do too much though, I will damage her body in such a way that even with the best medical treatment she will never be able to walk on her own and have the mental and emotional abilities of an adult.  I make a choice to allow her to suffer horribly for a year in order to have the rest of her life not only pain free, but unlimited instead of her being comfortable, but living a muted existence. 
 

There comes a time where she even has to stay off the medications that give her some relief, make her life bearable for a few days because they interfere with the medical procedures that will cure her.  She screams and begs me to help her, not understanding that at this time withholding the kind of help she understands is what will allow her to receive the best treatment there is. 
 

Even though I am there caring for her, holding her and comforting her at all times, she is not completely conscious or aware of what is around her.  She is hardly aware of me most of the time and at others she is completely oblivious, struggling in my arms, but I never put her down during her bad times, gently holding her, whispering words of love and comfort in her ears.  
 

If she could communicate, her description of what was going on would be very different than how I would describe it.  And she would describe her suffering as all of her life because it overpowers whatever good memories she has.  At times she is suffering so much she is screaming, begging for relief which she knows I can give her, but even though it is the hardest thing I have ever done, I refuse to give her that barely effective relief because I know that will prevent her from being prepared to receive the treatment that will cure her, it will only prolong her overall misery.

Finally the day of treatment arrives and she is given tests and IVs…more pain she can’t understand why I am standing there letting this happen to her, the last step before she is ready for her cure, but it just makes her even more fearful and more screaming to make it stop. Telling her it is only for a few minutes more means nothing to her, in that moment it feels forever for her.
 

The anesthesia takes effect and she drifts off thinking she is falling and dying and is terrified. 
 

But when she wakes up, she is cured and pain free and her half existence is no more. She still doesn’t understand why it needed to be done, but now the pain is gone, she is conscious of my presence and better understands what I tell her. Now she can run and climb and see and hear all the true beauty around her rather than the blurred muted colors and sounds she experienced before. As years go by and she grows up, her understanding of why she had to suffer grows and she tells me she is grateful I cared about her having a life she wanted rather than just making her life as easy as possible at any moment. The memories of pain are muted and eventually gone, no room left in her heart and mind for negatives her life is so full and joyful. 
 

Just in case anyone thinks I am saying abuse and other suffering my daughter goes through is the medical treatment or even that the pain of her disorder is necessary for her personal growth, I am not.  I would equate abuse and other tragedies of this world to the pain her weak and disordered body puts her through (her body is the equivalent of both our own mortal selves and the mortal world we are aware of).

This does leave the question why would such a horrific at times world be necessary. I don’t have an answer for that, my reason and my experience of God’s love and my faith and hope tells me God is not casually neglectful, he made the process of salvation and exaltation as easy as possible while still accomplishing the ultimate advancement of humankind, but there is no way I can demonstrate this to anyone else. Everyone has to find their own way to trust God and I don’t think someone is unreasonable if they see my choice of belief as foolish.  They don’t know what I have lived through and experienced that got me this far. 
 

On a side note, I have experienced my daughter at 12 years of age screaming at me, begging me to make it stop, screaming “I want to die, let me die” while my husband and I pinned her down and have her an insulin shot, having her hate us after it was over, knowing that if we gave in she would only suffer more and even eventually die. Thankfully that extreme stage of her grief and denial only lasted a few days, though resistance and hatred of her life lasted much, much longer. We moved on to days where she would be crying and screaming and her dad would carry her out while I would have to pry her fingers off the railing so we could take her to school. It would take a few hours for her to function each morning, so even with that pushing her to her limit she still didn’t get there till 10 am. That lasted about a month. 

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
1 minute ago, rongo said:

In my case, I believe in limited omniscience and limited omnipotence, not TULIP absolute omniscience and omnipotence. I also favor the Skousen eternal intelligences explanation for the why of the plan of salvation (and why it couldn't be any other way, and is what has always been done before, worlds without end). For me, then, it's not enough for God to "know the heart" of each person and have that be enough. That's like law enforcement in Minority Report punishing criminals for crimes they haven't committed, but are going to commit. With the source of God's power being the honor the eternal intelligences have for Him (and absolute faith He would never do anything unjust), judging people for having a "black heart" without them doing any "black-hearted" things would be cause for complaints about unjustness. 

I don't personally believe God would put a person in a position to commit atrocities so that they could repent (say, a bishop who will abuse children). Perish the thought! 

It is extremely sad. I've been thinking about suffering in general over the millennia --- not just modern sex crimes. It's mind-boggling how some of our brothers and sisters who kept their first estate act when the veil of forgetfulness is upon them in mortality. That could only be shown to everyone (including themselves) on the mortal stage, with the veil. I don't think any one of them would believe it if they were told that in the pre-existence. 

I think we've known more about the pre-existence in the past, but we as an institutional church have jettisoned some of it in favor of ignorance and ambiguity for PR/PC reasons --- while trying to keep a lot of it to believe that we are Warriors "held in reserve," saved for Saturday. :) I also don't think He has made it challenging to understand Him --- I think modern sensibilities and philosophical trends make past explanations and philosophies harder for people to accept --- and not because the old explanations are dumb and the new ones are more enlightened and rational. Satan knows what he's doing, and is effective at trying to sandbag as many people in this time as possible. Unbelief and skepticism are the default setting in our day, and that informs age old problems like the problem of evil. 

No, we theorized a lot about premortality. We built what we felt were logical conclusions about it based on the little we do know. Considering how little we know though those logical conclusions are almost all flawed and most of them probably dead wrong. Little of that framework came directly from the prophets and even less from scripture.

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Trust suggests an expectation that God can be relied upon to always help in that way. That seems like a setup to disappointment.

The little miracles have in part led me to trust God in the big things, so that even though I don’t expect to be rescued in mortality because I have seen enough to know that most often doesn’t happen, the healing and blessings will come eventually. 

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
13 minutes ago, Amulek said:

My wife, myself, and (now that she's old enough to participate in her medical decisions) my daughter have all chosen to suffer through the pain in order to get what can only be possible by going through it.

Those kinds of choices can really change your perspective, don’t they.

Link to comment
Just now, Calm said:

The little miracles have in part led me to trust God in the big things, so that even though I don’t expect to be rescued in mortality, the healing and blessings will come eventually. 

I envy that trust.

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think a better analogy is my daughter is three years old, bedridden, in constant discomfort and even severe pain at times, unable to hear or see well and her brain is unable to develop in some ways so she doesn’t understand much of what I tell her, though I am always talking to her and telling her of good times to come and giving her what comfort she can understand. I am doing all I can to ease her pain, including preparing for a way in which she can not only be healed of her pain, but for her to have a full and glorious life without limits.  If I do too much though, I will damage her body in such a way that even with the best medical treatment she will never be able to walk on her own and have the mental and emotional abilities of an adult.  I make a choice to allow her to suffer horribly for a year in order to have the rest of her life not only pain free, but unlimited instead of her being comfortable, but living a muted existence. 
 

There comes a time where she even has to stay off the medications that give her some relief, make her life bearable for a few days because they interfere with the medical procedures that will cure her.  She screams and begs me to help her, not understanding that at this time withholding the kind of help she understands is what will allow her to receive the best treatment there is. 
 

Even though I am there caring for her, holding her and comforting her at all times, she is not completely conscious or aware of what is around her.  She is hardly aware of me most of the time and at others she is completely oblivious, struggling in my arms, but I never put her down during her bad times, gently holding her, whispering words of love and comfort in her ears.  
 

If she could communicate, her description of what was going on would be very different than how I would describe it.  And she would describe her suffering as all of her life because it overpowers whatever good memories she has.  At times she is suffering so much she is screaming, begging for relief which she knows I can give her, but even though it is the hardest thing I have ever done, I refuse to give her that barely effective relief because I know that will prevent her from being prepared to receive the treatment that will cure her, it will only prolong her overall misery.

Finally the day of treatment arrives and she is given tests and IVs…more pain she can’t understand why I am standing there letting this happen to her, the last step before she is ready for her cure, but it just makes her even more fearful and more screaming to make it stop. Telling her it is only for a few minutes more means nothing to her, in that moment it feels forever for her.
 

The anesthesia takes effect and she drifts off thinking she is falling and dying and is terrified. 
 

But when she wakes up, she is cured and pain free and her half existence is no more. She still doesn’t understand why it needed to be done, but now the pain is gone, she is conscious of my presence and better understands what I tell her. Now she can run and climb and see and hear all the true beauty around her rather than the blurred muted colors and sounds she experienced before. As years go by and she grows up, her understanding of why she had to suffer grows and she tells me she is grateful I cared about her having a life she wanted rather than just making her life as easy as possible at any moment. The memories of pain are muted and eventually gone, no room left in her heart and mind for negatives her life is so full and joyful. 

I am not knocking the metaphor here completely. I appreciate this kind of take a lot. I am also not suggesting that metaphors have to take on all aspects of a situation.

That being said:

The flaw I find in using that kind of idea to survive mortality is that your daughter was to a large extent compelled to be healed. In a gospel context wouldn’t the correct course of action for the daughter be to trust the parent even in the times of horrific suffering and keep seeking their advice even when it seems like the parents are trying to kill her. And if she does not does the healing actually work or is all the misery for nothing?

One of C.S. Lewis’s more troubling insights is that the suffering of the virtuous seems justified by its effects on improving them. Yet the suffering of evil people doesn’t seem to correct them. Wouldn’t it logically follow that God would dish out more of the former and less of the latter?

On that note:

 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And if she does not does the healing actually work or is all the misery for nothing?

We will be judged by the law/the understanding we have.  That could mean a very different picture of justice and mercy than what we usually see in ourselves. 
 

In my belief, the time to learn to trust extends beyond death and into the next life.  I see trust and faith being part of our existence until we become truly one with God because only then will our knowledge of him be complete with no gaps that require a leap of faith to move forward.
 

I do believe God turns all things to our good (which does not mean for me abuse and such become blessings, but that God is able to remove the harm leaving only the good in our lives); we however get to choose the full buffet of his blessings or just some of them rather than him making the choices for us, thus some good that he has made accessible to us (likely by healing the damage that abuse, etc does to us) may not end up on our plate.
 

I don’t believe anyone has a full enough understanding or experience in life to make a ‘free’ choice between accepting God’s love fully and aligning our wills with his and placing limits on our existence because the cost of personal growth is too high for us.  There are other things more important to some (and these can be good things, I don’t assume those who choose less than exaltation are inherently weak or anything, it might amount to something similar to the difference between wanting to be an explorer and wanting to be a homebody).

Perhaps for those of Perdition, the misery will end up being for nothing. My belief is for all others it will be worth it. They are kingdoms of glory, after all. 
 

Hope this makes sense, fog continues rolling in over the hills of my brain. 

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
51 minutes ago, rongo said:

 I also don't think He has made it challenging to understand Him

I find it hubris to think we limited mortal beings can have more than a hint of what an eternal, perfect existence would be like and the type of beings that life would create. 
 

So perhaps no, God did not make it challenging to know him anymore than a parent is challenging their infant to understand what being an adult and having adult abilities and responsibilities is like.  But that doesn’t mean the infant is capable of understanding. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Trust suggests an expectation that God can be relied upon to always help in that way. That seems like a setup to disappointment.

Maybe. It depends upon the outlook of the person, I suppose. I don't expect the Lord to intervene in every situation -- He does have his own agenda. I've learned a few things about when to trouble Him and when not to, but He still has His own will in all things. 

ETA: Well, I said I wouldn't trot it out, but here I am doing it anyway. It turns out it had to be told.

In this particular instance, the key ring contained important keys and were definitely needed. We had thoroughly searched everywhere all the likely places the keys might have found their way to, to no avail. Before going off to work that day, we knelt down and prayed for help in finding them. I expected that one of us would possibly get some inspiration that would lead to finding them, but that's about all I expected -- I was also willing to accept that the Lord considered it our problem, not His. Well, having prayed, we left for our places of work, locking the bedroom and locking the house. I didn't think about the keys at all that day, but I got home first that day, and when I went upstairs to our bedroom, there they were, sitting dead in the middle on top of the made bed. I had helped make the bed that day, and the keys had not been there when we were finished. I don't know why the Lord decided to intervene in this case, but He did, and we were grateful. I know we didn't lose them on the bed, and how they got there I don't know. But there they were.

I have two other cases, both from my mission, with one being the finding of something lost and the other an answer to fasting and prayer, both by investigators.

The mission president's Assistants had an investigator who happened to be a high officer in a major German firm. They had been teaching him for a few weeks, and he was nearing the point of committing to baptism. Having been taught that the Lord answers prayers, he decided to pray about a problem they were having with some important missing documents. He locked his office, and knelt down and asked the Lord for assistance in locating those documents. Some time went by, and then suddenly his secretary burst into his office triumphantly holding a paper file folder, crying "I found it!" I don't remember every detail of the story, but she found the documents in a completely unaccustomed place where they weren't supposed to be. Did the Lord intervene in this case? I have no idea, but he certainly thought He did. He was baptized in the end, and just a few years later served as the bishop of the ward.

The other story is rather closer to me, since they were my investigators. The husband had acquired a testimony of the gospel and wanted to be baptized, but didn't want to go into the water without his wife. But she was on the fence about it, not objecting, but not enthusiastic, and things were on hold. I don't remember us teaching him about fasting and prayer, but we might have, or he might have gotten it from the scriptures or Sunday School. In any case, one morning as he prepared for work, he told his wife that he wasn't hungry enough to eat breakfast, and though he took the lunch she made for him, he didn't eat it. He was fasting and praying for her to see the light, as it were, and consent to be baptized, but he didn't tell her that. When he got home that day, she told him that while she had been doing housework that day, the thought came to her, "Why not get baptized?" And she said she was ready. Now, was she going to make that decision anyway, regardless of him fasting and praying about it? I have no idea, but he certainly thought so. And so they were baptized and became a huge source of strength in both their branch and their stake. Incidentally, he was not long thereafter called into the branch presidency (as a priest, no less), and then later into the stake presidency. Just before he passed away, in 2016, he had just recently been released after five years as the bishop of his ward. 

These two brothers took seriously what the missionaries had been teaching them, and relied upon the Lord for help when they needed it. Their reward was nothing flashy, but they did get evidence that the Lord was looking out for them. This led them to greater faith and service. I guess I have to cite Alma 32 on this, because the principles found therein are what they were using, even if they didn't know that chapter like perhaps you and I do.

I'm also reminded of Luke 11:11-13 - 

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Maybe the Lord wants us to solve our own problems, and will only step in from time to time. As for me, I will accept gratefully what the Lord chooses to give me. And not fuss that he doesn't want to make me into a millionaire.

Edited by Stargazer
Link to comment

Here's another one:
Former LDS Bishop in Utah Charged With Abusing Teen at Girls Church Camp

A former Latter-day Saint bishop in Utah has been charged after a 15-year-old told police that he assaulted her at a church camp for girls in Duchesne County. James Douglas Robinson, 63, was charged with forcible sexual abuse after the girl told authorities that he pinned her to a kitchen counter at Reid Ranch on June 16, and touched her body over her clothes. Police said that Robinson was released as bishop and moved to Idaho after the assault. A warrant has been issued for his arrest.

A spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said in a statement that the allegations had been quickly reported to law enforcement and that Robinson was “immediately released from his leadership position to allow him to focus on his legal defense.” The church “has zero-tolerance for abuse of any kind,” the spokesman said.

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know about those hordes of people with key-find stories, but my wife and I have one. I shan't trot it out, but we were grateful for finding the darned keys, and it seemed at the time to be at least slightly miraculous. I don't know why people disparage such stories. They seem to be the kind of small miracle that lead people to learn to trust the Lord in small things, so that perhaps they will then trust the Lord in larger things.

The bird baptism reminds of a story I heard on my mission. It seems there was a man walking down a street when he spied a young boy digging two small holes in his front yard. By the time he reached the boy's yard, the boy had just finished filling one hole with water, but left the other one dry. The man asked him, "What are you doing?" To which the boy replied "I'm baptizing my cat." The man was puzzled so asked why the boy had dug two holes but filled only one with water. The answer was: "Well, first I baptize him in the water, and then in the hole he goes."

 

I believe you're right Stargazer. I have prayed over them, and a few others. I shouldn't have disparaged.

Link to comment
6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I envy that trust.

It has been a great blessing and I hope my skeptic side never manages to suppress/rewrite my memory of my experiences enough to allow me to doubt it. I know without those memories, it would be easy to talk myself into agnosticism as it is, imo, reasonable to see the world and life as independent of the divine if I didn’t believe I have experienced it. 

Link to comment
31 minutes ago, Calm said:

It has been a great blessing and I hope my skeptic side never manages to suppress/rewrite my memory of my experiences enough to allow me to doubt it. I know without those memories, it would be easy to talk myself into agnosticism as it is, imo, reasonable to see the world and life as independent of the divine if I didn’t believe I have experienced it. 

My experiences with the divine are solid and I don’t think I can turn of them. If I fall I suspect it will be more along the lines of still believing there is a God but not trusting him or wanting anything to do with him.

I doubt that is enough to get my perdition ticket punched but who knows?

Link to comment
29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

My experiences with the divine are solid and I don’t think I can turn of them. If I fall I suspect it will be more along the lines of still believing there is a God but not trusting him or wanting anything to do with him.

I doubt that is enough to get my perdition ticket punched but who knows?

I don’t see a lack of trust as being perdition quality. Rather I would see having full trust in God as in believing, knowing he will bless as promised and yet still aggressively rejecting and working against him, denying him and his ability to bless to others knowing you lie because you want them to turn against God. 
 

It is more imo than distrust or anger against God because life has been difficult as I think such feelings are very understandable and God would get why we go there…we were hurt; perdition is likely more being ungrateful for significant and obvious blessings, selfish, demanding, and malicious hatred. It is an unreasonable reaction to God’s Grace because it is rooted in selfishness and pride. 

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
On 9/17/2021 at 9:19 AM, smac97 said:

the individual was immediately released from his leadership position to allow him to focus on his legal defense

To be clear, smac didn’t say this, he was quoting the LDS spokesperson.

This sure have could have been worded better. He should not have been released to focus on his defense, but should have been released because of the allegations. It sounds like the release was to help him, rather than to protect others.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

To be clear, smac didn’t say this, he was quoting the LDS spokesperson.

This sure have could have been worded better. He should not have been released to focus on his defense, but should have been released because of the allegations. It sounds like the release was to help him, rather than to protect others.

 I suspect that this comment was was a bit of editorializing by the reporter, rather than a statement from the church. The church the church does a pretty good job of of distancing itself from rendering a judgment for or against or against an accused person in these circumstances. Yeah circumstances. Either way yesterday's weather whether he is innocent or guilty of the charges, it is not appropriate or feasible for him to function as a Bishop during the period under which he is facing legal scrutiny.

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

suspect that this comment was was a bit of editorializing by the reporter, rather than a statement from the church.

It was a quote, but we don’t know, I believe, if it was from a prepared statement or response to a question that referenced perhaps whether the Church would help with his legal defense or not or something else that would make attaching that part reasonable. I don’t remember seeing anything like it before.  
 

Smac, you preoccupied or something?  Lots of typos (repetitions and such), which is unusual for you…

Edited by Calm
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...