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Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope."


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My husband's coworker is saying LDS members must be vaccinated before attending church and this is a new thing, I highly doubt this is correct. And he said he believes in a prophet but that he doesn't believe it came from God.

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I think you meant that it is the unvaccinated who are keeping the pandemic alive.

Mea cupla.  Fixed it.

 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I still disagree that those who do not want it should be forced to be vaccinated

So you would say that the rights of the individual trump the good of the community, if I understand you right. 

 

"Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

Jacobson v Mass (1905)

Edited by ksfisher
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13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Mea cupla.  Fixed it.

 

So you would say that the rights of the individual trump the good of the community, if I understand you right. 

In some cases, yes. In others, no.

Does the good of the community always override the rights of the individual? I say "No."  In the conversation between Spock and Kirk after Spock saved the Enterprise by repairing the damaged warp core despite the danger of radiation, which led to Spock's death, the following dialogue occurred:

Spock: "Ship? Out of danger?"
Kirk: "Yes!"
Spock: [nods] "Don't grieve, Admiral. It's logical. The needs of the many, outweigh..." [falters]
Kirk: "...the needs of the few."
Spock: "...or the one. [pauses] I never took the Kobayashi Maru Test, till now. What do you think of my solution?"
Kirk: "Spock?"
Spock: [sinks to his knees] "I have been, and always shall be, your friend." [makes Vulcan salute against the protective shield wall] "Live long, and prosper."
Kirk: [returns the salute against the shield]
Spock: [collapses and dies]

We honor those who go beyond the call of duty to accomplish great deeds of valor; we award them the highest of medals. In each of these cases, the one has placed his or her life in danger in order to prosper the cause for which he or she fights, or to save the lives of their many. There are stories of Soldiers and Marines who leapt upon live grenades in order to shield with their body their comrades from likely death, and a number of Medals of Honor were conferred as a result. We rightly celebrate the deeds of these men.

But have any Medals of Honor been awarded to the men who might have tossed their fellow soldier upon the grenade in order to preserve lives? Haven't heard of any, to be honest. Was there valor or glory to be had if Scotty had tossed Spock into the danger area to force him to fix the warp drive? Perhaps to Spock if the fix had worked, but Scotty would probably have been vilified. Because it would have been wrong for him to do it. Despite the danger to the ship and crew. 

Before you protest the obvious overreach, let me make clear that it's definitely ridiculous to seriously compare tossing someone upon a live grenade to forcibly inoculating someone who doesn't want the shot. What danger do they stand in danger of by having the shot against their will? Virtually and probably literally none. But just how dangerous to society is it if we begin to so disregard the free will of its members in fear of this disease when in reality the survival rate from infection is extremely high? The most recent numbers I have seen, on a global level, is a 98% survival rate. And as more are vaccinated (in train as we argue) that number will get better. I fear we are letting ourselves be turned into something we really don't want to be. For example, The Nehor is willing to commit violence upon those who are unwilling to be inoculated. He is most certainly not alone. And where do we stop when the next perceived public danger arrives? 

I don't know what else to say. But I do remember Ben Franklin's famous saying: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

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8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Spock: "Ship? Out of danger?"
Kirk: "Yes!"
Spock: [nods] "Don't grieve, Admiral. It's logical. The needs of the many, outweigh..." [falters]
Kirk: "...the needs of the few."
Spock: "...or the one. [pauses] I never took the Kobayashi Maru Test, till now. What do you think of my solution?"
Kirk: "Spock?"
Spock: [sinks to his knees] "I have been, and always shall be, your friend." [makes Vulcan salute against the protective shield wall] "Live long, and prosper."
Kirk: [returns the salute against the shield]
Spock: [collapses and dies]

I think this quote expresses the idea better:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.

38 This is the first and great acommandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.

(Matthew 22)

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52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Does it need to be "destroyed" before we intervene?  I can't speak for England, but the feared overload is happening across America.  It certainly is in Utah with ICU's beyond functional capacity and elective surgeries being halted.  I just read that Idaho is now implementing crisis care standards in the largest hospital system, and it has already implemented that standard of care in Northern parts of the state weeks ago.  This means rationing of care - as in people who need critical care are not going to get it. 

Of course it doesn't need to be destroyed. We've had rationing over here, too. Routine care is now more available, however. It gets better, and then it gets worse, and then it gets better. It goes in waves, and the government re-panics itself each time, with the Opposition parties getting all hot under the collar as if they would have done any better.

I just had a look at Utah's statistics. OMG. Case counts etc. What's the percentage of Utahns who refuse vaccination? I looked at the stats just now and I see there have been a total of 487,439 confirmed cases of Covid and 2,764 deaths thus far in the pandemic. The percentage of fatalities is thus 0.6% of confirmed cases, and the bulk of them would have occurred before vaccination became available. Today the Trib reported:

"Another 1,885 Utahns tested positive for COVID-19 in the past day, and 15 more have died of the coronavirus. Since Aug. 1, there have been 300 coronavirus deaths in Utah — 11% of the total deaths since the pandemic began."

How many of the 1,885 refused to be vaccinated? All of them? Will 0.6% or 11 of those new cases die? The colored maps and charts makes Utah look like a war zone. Is nobody vaccinated over there? 

November through January was far worse in deaths than the way September is shaping up, though. The chart seems to show a falling off as September progresses.  Back then there was no vaccine available. And you say that it's overloaded now, when there are fewer cases than eight months ago? Since then there have been nearly 2 million people vaccinated, and the numbers are NOW going up again? If the number of cases is rising like this, in spite of vaccinations, do you still think forcible vaccination is going to help? 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think this quote expresses the idea better:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.

38 This is the first and great acommandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.

(Matthew 22)

And vaccinate him whether he wants it or not. Right?

I agree that it does show love to your neighbor to get vaccinated.

But why does every one of you who want to argue with me about this show up with a proverb or parable expressing the importance of voluntary love, care, and concern, and then equate it to pinning your neighbor to the ground while someone injects him with a medicinal potion? I suppose this is the same thing as the Savior asking us to help those in need by donating from our surplus, and then someone else pulls out a gun, robs someone, gives to the needy, and then claims to be doing God's work?

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13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If the number of cases is rising like this, in spite of vaccinations, do you still think forcible vaccination is going to help? 

Since the majority of the serious Covid illnesses are unvaccinated, then yes, mandated vaccinations should help lighten the load. 

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30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course it doesn't need to be destroyed. We've had rationing over here, too. Routine care is now more available, however. It gets better, and then it gets worse, and then it gets better. It goes in waves, and the government re-panics itself each time, with the Opposition parties getting all hot under the collar as if they would have done any better.

I just had a look at Utah's statistics. OMG. Case counts etc. What's the percentage of Utahns who refuse vaccination? I looked at the stats just now and I see there have been a total of 487,439 confirmed cases of Covid and 2,764 deaths thus far in the pandemic. The percentage of fatalities is thus 0.6% of confirmed cases, and the bulk of them would have occurred before vaccination became available. Today the Trib reported:

"Another 1,885 Utahns tested positive for COVID-19 in the past day, and 15 more have died of the coronavirus. Since Aug. 1, there have been 300 coronavirus deaths in Utah — 11% of the total deaths since the pandemic began."

How many of the 1,885 refused to be vaccinated? All of them? Will 0.6% or 11 of those new cases die? The colored maps and charts makes Utah look like a war zone. Is nobody vaccinated over there? 

November through January was far worse in deaths than the way September is shaping up, though. The chart seems to show a falling off as September progresses.  Back then there was no vaccine available. And you say that it's overloaded now, when there are fewer cases than eight months ago? Since then there have been nearly 2 million people vaccinated, and the numbers are NOW going up again? If the number of cases is rising like this, in spite of vaccinations, do you still think forcible vaccination is going to help? 

About 49% of Utahn's are fully vaccinated.  Yet the vast majority of all positive cases, hospitalizations, and deaths related to covid are not vaccinated.  In other words, 51% of the population is creating 90+% of the problem. 

Quote

 

During April 4–July 17, a total of 569,142 (92%) COVID-19 cases, 34,972 (92%) hospitalizations, and 6,132 (91%) COVID-19–associated deaths were reported among persons not fully vaccinated, and 46,312 (8%) cases, 2,976 (8%) hospitalizations, and 616 (9%) deaths were reported among fully vaccinated persons in the 13 jurisdictions (Table)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm

 

Do I think forcible vaccination is going to help?  How could it not?  


 

 

Edited by pogi
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16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And vaccinate him whether he wants it or not. Right?

I agree that it does show love to your neighbor to get vaccinated.

But why does every one of you who want to argue with me about this show up with a proverb or parable expressing the importance of voluntary love, care, and concern, and then equate it to pinning your neighbor to the ground while someone injects him with a medicinal potion? I suppose this is the same thing as the Savior asking us to help those in need by donating from our surplus, and then someone else pulls out a gun, robs someone, gives to the needy, and then claims to be doing God's work?

I think it's unfortunate that the government would have to even consider mandating vaccinations.  Unless there is a legitimate medical reason for someone not to be, why would anyone not?  Why are people choosing to die on the hill of individual rights when there is a way out of the current crisis? 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/politics/covid-19-deaths-conservative-radio/index.html

The story of Wallace, who leaves behind a wife and three children with a fourth on the way in a month or so -- is particularly devastating. As the San Angelo (Texas) Standard-Times wrote of Wallace:
"At first, Caleb refused to get tested for COVID-19, or go to the hospital.
"'He was so hard-headed,' Jessica [his wife] said. "'He didn't want to see a doctor, because he didn't want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests.'
"'Caleb instead began taking tablets of ivermectin (an anti-parasitic medicine the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has since urged people not to take for COVID-19), high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin, and an inhaler. By July 30, however, Caleb was taken by a relative to the emergency room at Shannon Medical Center.'"
 
Do you think now Caleb Wallace is talking about how during his time on earth he stuck up for his individual rights or about how he left behind is wife and four children?

The supreme court has had to rule before that the state can mandate vaccination, and I'm guessing it will have to do it again.

 

 

Edited by ksfisher
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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree that they should go hand in hand.  At what point is it not "overreach" but reasonable intervention?   Is mandating seatbelt "overreach"?  Is prohibiting smoking in public areas "overreach"?  Is mandating vaccines in schools "overreach"?  Was mandating the smallpox vaccine "overarch"?  We are in a crisis in a pandemic.  How much worse does it need to get?

How bad is it NOW? Looking at "Cumulative COVID-19 Cases with Estimated Recoveries" it looks like the worst was back around the year-end, before vaccinations started coming online. Our vaccinations began sometime around the beginning of February (with healthcare workers first), and if that's when it started for Utah, it looks like the vaccination results began to take hold around the same time as they did here. Why has there been this recent increase of infections, I wonder? There have been nearly 2 million people vaccinated at this point, at least a first dose. Seems like 2nd doses isn't tracking as well as 1st. Wouldn't vaccination refusers come down with Covid at the same rate as those who are willing but haven't been able to get it? Or are the refusers less likely to catch it? 

2021-09-16-23-40-14.png

 

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since the majority of the serious Covid illnesses are unvaccinated, then yes, mandated vaccinations should help lighten the load. 

I think it's a given that the unvaccinated are more likely to catch it than the vaccinated, but what percentage of those unvaxxed but now infected were refusers, and what percentage were those who just hadn't yet had the opportunity to get the vaccine? And what of the vaxxed but who got infected anyway? Are there many people who haven't yet been vaccinated, but only due to unavailabilty? The question here revolves around the refusers, not the unlucky. Weren't those most in danger of Covid the ones offered early access to the vaccine? That's how they did it here, and I assume that's how they'd do it in Utah. So the ones who were willing but were in groups considered less "at risk" have not yet been vaccinated, but only because others had higher priority. Or?

Does everyone believe that those not yet vaccinated are refusing vaccination? Utah's population is 3.2 million, which leaves over 1.2 million who have not yet been vaccinated. Does that mean that ONE THIRD of the state is refusing vaccination? How many are refusing, and how many just haven't been given the opportunity? Because if ONE THIRD of the state is refusing vaccination, The Nehor is going to be one busy guy trying to pin them all down to give them their medicine. 

The page of charts at the Utah state coronavirus site (https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/) is quite informative, but there's not one iota of information about refusers. Not that anyone is doing a survey to get the numbers -- or are they working on it?

 

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30 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think it's unfortunate that the government would have to even consider mandating vaccinations.  Unless there is a legitimate medical reason for someone not to be, why would anyone not?  Why are people choosing to die on the hill of individual rights when there is a way out of the current crisis? 

Some people believe the earth is flat, others believe that the moon-landings were fake, and yet others believe that taxing corporations is robbing the filthy rich.

30 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/politics/covid-19-deaths-conservative-radio/index.html

The story of Wallace, who leaves behind a wife and three children with a fourth on the way in a month or so -- is particularly devastating. As the San Angelo (Texas) Standard-Times wrote of Wallace:
"At first, Caleb refused to get tested for COVID-19, or go to the hospital.
"'He was so hard-headed,' Jessica [his wife] said. "'He didn't want to see a doctor, because he didn't want to be part of the statistics with COVID tests.'
"'Caleb instead began taking tablets of ivermectin (an anti-parasitic medicine the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has since urged people not to take for COVID-19), high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin, and an inhaler. By July 30, however, Caleb was taken by a relative to the emergency room at Shannon Medical Center.'"

The supreme court has had to rule before that the state can mandate vaccination, and I'm guessing it will have to do it again.

Wallace was a prize idiot. But he isn't the first man to avoid going to the doctor because he didn't want to admit he was vulnerable. You know how it is, right? Men have an unfortunate tendency to whistle past the graveyard when it comes to health. It's nothing new. But it's still stupid.

In the supreme court case you refer to, the plaintiff got fined $5 for refusal to get a smallpox vaccination, and tried to get the courts to absolve him of the fine. They said "No dice." And he had to pay the fine. What they didn't do was drag him to the doctor's office and jab him while he fought them tooth and nail to avoid the needle. At least as far as I'm aware, anyway.

 

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44 minutes ago, pogi said:

About 49% of Utahn's are fully vaccinated.  Yet the vast majority of all positive cases, hospitalizations, and deaths related to covid are not vaccinated.  In other words, 51% of the population is creating 90+% of the problem. 

Do I think forcible vaccination is going to help?  How could it not?  

I asked this of Calm, but I don't know if she knows the answer. Are 51% of the unvaccinated population unvaccinated because they are refusing to be vaccinated? Or is there a significant portion of that 51% that hasn't yet had the opportunity but would be willing?

By the way, the stats seem to say that only 1/3 of Utahns haven't yet been vaccinated. Not half.

The problem with the claim that forcible vaccination is going to help is all bound up with that number of those who are not refusing but who have just not yet been able to get vaccinated. 

I find it very hard to believe that 1/3 of Utahns are that stupid. But I don't live there, so what do I know?

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OK, I'm past my bedtime, and I think I've collected enough downvotes today to satisfy any reasonable curmudgeon. 

The funny thing is, a few weeks ago when I got my first downvote I was rather dismayed. But since it was from someone with whom I regularly disagree with, it was kind of a badge of honor. Now that I've collected a few from people I rather like and usually agree with, I've decided that it's still a badge of honor that those fine folks would like me enough to be honest about their feelings if we cross metaphorical sabers over something once in awhile.

I wish all of you, regardless of whether you disagree with me in this topic, a fine day, week, month, and year. May you be safe from Covid!

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My soon-to-be 40-year-old daughter, a labor-and-delivery nurse with 15 years of experience, has been granted an exemption from getting the COVID-19 vaccine, based on nominally religious grounds. She contracted the virus last December, when she was about 7 months pregnant with twins. She has had symptoms of pre-eclamptic diabetes with all three of her pregnancies, and in that context she became very ill with the virus. She had to deliver her babies five weeks early by emergency c-section, and all the anxiety she felt even caused her to suffer some congestive heart failure (“broken heart syndrome”). She and her babies survived, but the experience left her with the abiding feeling that she did not want the vaccine. 
 

What I fail to understand is why church leaders would not take into consideration individual circumstances and a person’s sincere belief that the Holy Ghost has communicated to her that the vaccine isn’t a good idea and that her natural immunity from having had a sh*tload of the virus is enough to protect her and those around her. Hasn’t COVID been politicized enough without becoming totally dogmatic about the vaccine?

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7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And vaccinate him whether he wants it or not. Right?

I agree that it does show love to your neighbor to get vaccinated.

But why does every one of you who want to argue with me about this show up with a proverb or parable expressing the importance of voluntary love, care, and concern, and then equate it to pinning your neighbor to the ground while someone injects him with a medicinal potion?

I think you are the only one talking about 'forcibly" pinning people down to give them the vaccine.  I know Nehor said he would or something along those lines, but he is Nehor.

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I suppose this is the same thing as the Savior asking us to help those in need by donating from our surplus, and then someone else pulls out a gun, robs someone, gives to the needy, and then claims to be doing God's work?

 

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10 hours ago, esodije said:

What I fail to understand is why church leaders would not take into consideration individual circumstances and a person’s sincere belief

They did.

"Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs."

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-leaders-covid-19-vaccine

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15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I asked this of Calm, but I don't know if she knows the answer. Are 51% of the unvaccinated population unvaccinated because they are refusing to be vaccinated? Or is there a significant portion of that 51% that hasn't yet had the opportunity but would be willing?

By the way, the stats seem to say that only 1/3 of Utahns haven't yet been vaccinated. Not half.

I am looking at the most reliable source of data.  It looks like the percentage of "fully vaccinated in Utah is now at 51%.   58.1% are partially vaccinated.  That means that 41.9% of the population have not received a single vaccine and 7.1% are partially vaccinated.

https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/vaccines.html

Quote

The problem with the claim that forcible vaccination is going to help is all bound up with that number of those who are not refusing but who have just not yet been able to get vaccinated. 

I guarantee that number is exceptionally low.  If someone is not vaccinated who wants to be vaccinated, it is not as likely that it is not available to them, it is that they have not made it a priority.  It is clear to see that those who REALLY want it (the high risk population - older and sicker) make themselves available to it in proportions much higher than the rest of the population, despite the extra burden of being older and sicker.  It is also very clear that there is a political divide.  As of July 23, 75% of democrats are vaccinated while only 41% of republicans are.  That can't be explained away by vaccine availability issues.  

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2021-07-23/coronavirus-vaccines-highlight-a-deadly-political-divide

BY FAR the largest population who says that they are "definitely not going to be vaccinated" are white and republican according to polls.  This bears true when you compare red and blue state vaccination rates and even county vaccination data.  High republican counties are always less vaccinated than democratic counties, despite ease of access in Utah County, for example. 

https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_unvaccinated-americans-whiter-more-republican-vaccinated/6207698.html

https://data.news-leader.com/covid-19-vaccine-tracker/utah/49/

Quote

I find it very hard to believe that 1/3 of Utahns are that stupid. But I don't live there, so what do I know?

I didn't say it.  They would argue that they are not stupid, they are "lions not sheep" - that's what I see on social media anyway. 

The vaccine is readily available in every county for anyone who wants it.  You would have to be completely disabled and without assistance or have no transportation for the vaccine to not be available.  Even then, county health departments and home-health agencies have been bringing the vaccine to the homes of the disadvantaged.   There is literally no excuse, or at least not one to justify 41.9% of the population not being vaccinated.

The vast majority of people not getting vaccinated are young, white, and republican.  Inability to get vaccinated is not really a significant issue for this population. 

One USU study made this observation:

Quote

"From the beginning of the pandemic, Democrats were much more likely than Republicans to take the threat of the virus seriously and to support efforts to control virus spread, whereas Republicans expressed greater concern for the economic and other impacts of health safety policies," according to the study.

Machine-learning data analysis "found that political views were the most important variable explaining per capita COVID-19 cases, while measures of disadvantage were the best predictors of COVID-19 deaths. Counties with high proportions of Trump voters had higher per capita cases, and in nonmetro areas, these counties had higher death rates," researchers wrote.

"This article makes it clear that during a pandemic, political views have consequences. This past summer, failure to follow the advice of medical experts has resulted in a surge of people unnecessarily becoming ill, pushing hospitals and their staffs to their breaking point. Despite new medications that provide some relief for the severely ill, death still takes a daily toll in the United States," Albrecht said in a news release.

"I hope that recognition of the role of political views as well as the continued need to provide adequate medical care will help elected officials make appropriate policies and individuals make better choices," he added.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50242296/usu-study-shows-political-leanings-impact-community-covid-rates-as-utah-confirms-1885-new-cases

I suspect that this downplay of the virus and perception that it is not a serious threat plays a significant role in lower republican vaccination rates.  It also plays a significant role in resistance against vaccine mandates.  Unfortunately it also plays a significant role in lower vaccine rates in that population and thus higher hospitalizations/deaths.  Not taking the virus seriously coupled with a strong distrust in government is much more likely to explain low vaccination rates in Utah than availability of vaccine.  

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27 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am looking at the most reliable source of data.  It looks like the percentage of "fully vaccinated in Utah is now at 51%.   58.1% are partially vaccinated.  That means that 41.9% of the population have not received a single vaccine and 7.1% are partially vaccinated.

Does the 42% unvaccinated include children not eligible yet?

Edited by ksfisher
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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Does the 42% unvaccinated include children not eligible yet?

Good catch.

I assumed it was for 12+ but in looking at the data closer it looks like the percentages are higher for those 12+ and eligible for the vaccine:

63.2% of those 12+ are fully vaccinated in Utah.  That means 36.8% are not fully vaccinated.  Another 8.7% are partially vaccinated. 

It is really a testament to how nasty the Delta variant is when only 36.8% of the population is causing such problems for hospitals.  

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