esodije Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) On 9/19/2021 at 8:46 AM, BlueDreams said: So she could seek out a 2nd opinion from another cardiologist, but again I wouldn’t expect much difference in opinion on this. beyond that, it may be time for her to re-evaluate her decision and the information she’s used to bolster it. It ain’t happening, and quite a few nurses in America would do as my daughter would have done, had she not been granted an exemption, and quit their jobs. By the way, my wife and I both had the Pfizer vaccine back in March, and there is no general “anti-vax” feeling in our family. I, however, never felt like I needed it or would have run a huge risk without it. Edited September 23, 2021 by esodije -1 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) On 9/22/2021 at 8:02 PM, esodije said: When a majority of church members reflexively believe that whatever their political leaders Is this your guess or do you see it as more of a fact? If the latter, I would be interested in seeing some documentation for this claim as it tends to be the reverse of what I have seen, except maybe for one strange case and that group is not a majority. From my own experience, I believe church members tend to be distrustful of the government, though this varies greatly depending on what country they live in. Russian members had very high distrust, saw the government as completely corrupt; Canadians saw the government as more there for their benefit in my experience…would be interested to hear how Canadians think of their own general views; Americans in my experience tend to be very skeptical of the government and politicians in general. American members in my experience generally talk about politicians in negative ways or treat someone as the best of a generally at least milquetoast if not bad lot. On occasion I have seen enthusiasm for a candidate, but enthusiasm usually wanes as the politician once elected has to make compromises or puts their foot in their mouth a few times. Edited September 24, 2021 by Calm 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, esodije said: It ain’t happening, and quite a few nurses in America would do as my daughter would have done, had she not been granted an exemption, and quit their jobs. Some people have threatened to quit over vaccine requirements. When the hammer started coming down most of them did get vaccinated. Quote By the way, my wife and I both had the Pfizer vaccine back in March, and there is no general “anti-vax” feeling in our family. I, however, never felt like I needed it or would have run a huge risk without it. Why should your feelings matter at all in the decision? Edited September 23, 2021 by The Nehor Link to comment
CelestialSeething Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 20 hours ago, The Nehor said: 23 hours ago, esodije said: It ain’t happening, and quite a few nurses in America would do as my daughter would have done, had she not been granted an exemption, and quit their jobs. Some people have threatened to quit over vaccine requirements. When the hammer started coming down most of them did get vaccinated. Nurses around the country are quitting instead of getting vaxxed. I wonder why that is? It's almost as if thier frontline experience is suggesting somethign to them? Ah well, we'll force them to get vaxxed and then balme the shortage of nurses on the unvaccinated. Force is usually the right way to go. Link to comment
CelestialSeething Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 4:47 PM, MustardSeed said: Frankly I'm annoyed that anyone would ask their bishop for such a thing. To put a bishop in that position is wrong. It's not like anyone has ever heard of the church preaching against vaccs - unless someone knew their bishop was personally anti vaccination and hoped to get around something by requesting a wink wink letter. You know the covid vaccines are different than other vaccines, right? Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted September 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, CelestialSeething said: Nurses around the country are quitting instead of getting vaxxed. I wonder why that is? It's almost as if thier frontline experience is suggesting somethign to them? Ah well, we'll force them to get vaxxed and then balme the shortage of nurses on the unvaccinated. Force is usually the right way to go. So your hypothesis is that healthcare workers have some secret insight through their job that vaccines are unhelpful and/or dangerous and yet they still get vaccinated at a rate higher than the general population. That is just nonsensical enough to be a good conspiracy theory. Make sure to work in George Soros, maybe the Deep State, and type it in ALL CAPS next time to show you are serious. The reason we have a nursing shortage in ER and ICU departments throughout the nation is that they are underpaid, overworked, and they have to deal with idiot patients and their idiot families demanding parasite medication and other quackery to treat a virus and are being threatened, insulted, and disparaged for not going with whatever lame brain plan these quacks last read about on the internet. These nurses have been physically attacked, denied basic human dignity, screamed at and threatened as they enter and leave where they work and yes, many are quitting. We are going to have a health care crisis after the pandemic is contained because many of them aren’t going to come back. So yes, they are blaming the unvaccinated themselves. Edited September 24, 2021 by The Nehor 8 Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted September 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 24, 2021 2 hours ago, CelestialSeething said: You know the covid vaccines are different than other vaccines, right? Yeah, they are safer. They don’t risk damage to DNA as the current vaccines cannot get to the nucleus. They don’t require cell cultures or a process to deactivate anything in the vaccine which reduces the risk of toxins inadvertently getting into the vaccine. The material in the vaccine is flushed completely out of the body within days so there is virtually no risk of long-term side effects. They can be mass produced, altered to deal with variants in a virus relatively easily, and have a multitude of uses. And these are the first mRNA vaccines to see wide use. This is their infancy. We may be able to vaccinate against or even cure HIV with this technology. With development we may be able to come up with a universal flu vaccine or a universal coronavirus vaccine. With the right development this kind of vaccine could possibly train a patient’s body to destroy some kinds of cancer cells on its own. You don’t know what you are talking about. 13 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, CelestialSeething said: Nurses around the country are quitting instead of getting vaxxed. I wonder why that is? It's almost as if thier frontline experience is suggesting somethign to them? Except hesitancy is mirroring the general population, it isn’t something that has been found to be a unique experience with frontline workers. Iow, it looks like they are living in the same world as the rest of us and are influenced in the same ways. Quote Even if the data is flawed, the vaccination rates from hospitals mirror the general population. A May Gallup poll, for example, found 24% of Americans said they definitely won't get the vaccine. Another 12% say they plan to get it but are waiting. The data also align with recent studies. A review of 35 studies by researchers at New Mexico State University that assessed hesitancy in more than 76,000 health care workers around the world found about 23% of them were reluctant to get the shots. In fact, the more educated a health care worker is, the more likely they are to be vaccinated. It is almost as if being more knowledgeable and likely more familiar with how to critique data is suggesting something to them…to get vaccinated. This was from June, so vaccination rates could be significantly up since then due to education or incentive programs as well as mandates. Quote It revealed a spectrum of hesitancy among health care workers corresponding to income and education, ranging from a low of 9% among pharmacists to highs of 20%-23% among nursing aides and emergency medical technicians. About 12% of registered nurses and doctors admitted to being hesitant to get a shot…. “Health care workers are not monolithic," says study author Jagdish Khubchandani, professor of public health sciences at New Mexico State University. "There's a big divide between males, doctoral degree holders, older people, and the younger low-income, low-education frontline, female health care workers. They are the most hesitant," he says. Support staff typically outnumber doctors at hospitals about 3 to 1. https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers I wish there was data on different responses between those who actually care directly for the more serious Covid patients as opposed to those who might have incidental contact (frontline healthcare workers include anyone who may come in contact with a Covid patient or their bodily fluids), the ones who observe firsthand deterioration and death from the disease as opposed to those who see them once or have brief contact. Edited September 24, 2021 by Calm 3 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/09/us-nurses-vaccinated-vaccine-hesitant Quote It can be startling to read reports of disparate vaccination rates among health workers. In the south or the borough of Staten Island in New York City, for example, there are pockets of health workers who are strongly opposed to vaccination. Vaccine hesitancy tends to be more common among the staff of long-term care facilities, where only 60% of staff is vaccinated. A CDC report in July found the lowest vaccination rate of health workers was among aides, including certified nursing assistants, nurse aides and medication aides and assistants, at 45.6% – but that figure was as of March, and it’s likely that rate has risen since. (Nursing aides or assistants usually undergo a four- to 12-week training course, while registered nurses receive two- or four-year degrees and must pass a licensing test.) In contrast, 88% of nurses and 96% of physicians in the US have already gotten vaccinated or plan to do so, according to surveys by the American Nurses Association and the American Medical Association.Yes Contrast 4-12 weeks training vs 2-4 years training. Who would you assume understands a disease and the issues of infection and prevention better? Edited September 24, 2021 by Calm 3 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 I thought this video might be appropriate for this topic. Despite the title of the video, it is not some anti-vax or anti-mask polemic. It is filled with good information. Link to comment
Urloony Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 4:22 PM, JLHPROF said: Utah offers the same religious exemption option. But I don't think it requires a minister of the Church to sign. Isn't personal religious belief sufficient without official Church doctrine to back it? This is currently the case in CT. The religious exemption is limited to "sincerely held religious or spiritual belief." The only signer is the person submitting the paperwork. Link to comment
Danzo Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: The reason we have a nursing shortage in ER and ICU departments throughout the nation is that they are underpaid, overworked, and they have to deal with idiot patients and their idiot families demanding parasite medication and other quackery to treat a virus and are being threatened, insulted, and disparaged for not going with whatever lame brain plan these quacks last read about on the internet. I do alot of taxes for nurses, and, compared to other professions, I really don't think they are underpaid. Perhaps they are overworked (they tend to work long hours) and dealing with Idiot patients might have more to do with it. I have always felt that too much unecessary schooling might also play a part in the shortage of medical staff. I have never understood how a degree in history would prepare someone to be a medical doctor. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 5 hours ago, Danzo said: I do alot of taxes for nurses, and, compared to other professions, I really don't think they are underpaid. Perhaps they are overworked (they tend to work long hours) and dealing with Idiot patients might have more to do with it. I have always felt that too much unecessary schooling might also play a part in the shortage of medical staff. I have never understood how a degree in history would prepare someone to be a medical doctor. Only through the study of history can we recover the lost art of leech medicine. Link to comment
MustardSeed Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 9/23/2021 at 10:04 PM, CelestialSeething said: You know the covid vaccines are different than other vaccines, right? Yes of course. ? 1 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 9/22/2021 at 8:18 PM, esodije said: It ain’t happening, and quite a few nurses in America would do as my daughter would have done, had she not been granted an exemption, and quit their jobs. So why did you ask? If she got an exemption some other way, it’s a moot point what her cardiologist is saying. It’s at that point advice/recommendations that she can actively choose to ignore. She can’t choose though for the doctor to pretend there’s no need to give said advice. On 9/22/2021 at 8:18 PM, esodije said: By the way, my wife and I both had the Pfizer vaccine back in March, and there is no general “anti-vax” feeling in our family. I, however, never felt like I needed it or would have run a huge risk without it. I’m not sure what feelings have to do with anything on assessing actual risk from covid. I also never assumed there was a generalized anti-vax feeling. Most covid vax resistant/hesitant don’t fit into the category of generally anti-vax crowd of yesteryear. With luV, BD 2 Link to comment
Urloony Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 On 9/16/2021 at 12:09 PM, The Nehor said: This comes down to “vaccine not 100% perfect, therefore huge disappointment and not worth a mandate”. I am glad we didn’t have that reaction to the polio vaccine and the measles vaccine. If COVID ever approaches these numbers a mandate might have some validity. Polio and Measles are both false equivalencies to COVID. Polio 1 in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis. Among those paralyzed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/poliomyelitis Measles Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every 2–3 years and measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Urloony said: If COVID ever approaches these numbers a mandate might have some validity. Polio and Measles are both false equivalencies to COVID. Polio 1 in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis. Among those paralyzed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized. These data are correct. And as I previously posted on this topic: Quote A study published in JAMA in January this year used CDC seroprevalence data to estimate actual (i.e. underreported) infection rates in the US through November 2020. It found that Covid at that point had an actual hospitalisation rate of 2.04 per cent and an infection fatality rate of 0.65 per cent. (This is considerably lower than the estimated 2 per cent case fatality rate, which only considers diagnosed cases.) If accurate, these data mean that Covid-19 has an infection fatality rate 21.6 times greater than poliovirus. It also means that Covid has been killing 1.38 times more Americans than polio leaves with long-term health impacts. So yes, you are right that it is not apt to compare polio to Covid ... but not for the reason you think. Covid is actually 'vastly more potentially dangerous'. Edited October 3, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 6 Link to comment
Popular Post sheilauk Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 12 hours ago, Urloony said: If COVID ever approaches these numbers a mandate might have some validity. Polio and Measles are both false equivalencies to COVID. Polio 1 in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis. Among those paralyzed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/poliomyelitis Measles Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every 2–3 years and measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles The figure for measles is worldwide. So far COVID-19 is said to have caused 4.8 million deaths worldwide. Even if you think that’s exaggerated due to how it’s counted, at half the number, it’s close to the measles figure and Covid-19 is still going. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/ millions are sick and dying worldwide. Countries in Africa and Asia are desperate for the vaccine and privileged westerners, with easy access to the vaccine, healthcare and other prevention measures are whining about them. I don’t understand it. None of it is any harder or more demanding than wearing a seatbelt or getting a flu shot. And by failing to take simple steps, the pandemic rages on and is prolonged. 13 Link to comment
Popular Post pogi Posted October 4, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 4, 2021 On 10/2/2021 at 7:51 PM, Urloony said: If COVID ever approaches these numbers a mandate might have some validity. Polio and Measles are both false equivalencies to COVID. Polio 1 in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis. Among those paralyzed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/poliomyelitis Measles Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every 2–3 years and measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles Hamba did a great job in addressed polio. Let me compare Covid to measles. Quote In the first decade of reporting, an average of 6,000 measles-related deaths were reported each year. In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/history.html Your 2.6 million figure are global numbers. At it's peak, 6,000 deaths from measles were reported annually in the US. With Covid, we just topped 700,000 deaths in 1.5 years. 48,000 hospitalizations annually from measles. With Covid we are at over 3 MILLION! hospitalizations in 1.5 years. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html You are right, it is a false equivalence. Covid is responsible for FAR more annual death and hospitalizations than measles ever was. 6 Link to comment
pogi Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 8:24 AM, sheilauk said: The figure for measles is worldwide. So far COVID-19 is said to have caused 4.8 million deaths worldwide. Even if you think that’s exaggerated due to how it’s counted, at half the number, it’s close to the measles figure and Covid-19 is still going. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/ millions are sick and dying worldwide. Countries in Africa and Asia are desperate for the vaccine and privileged westerners, with easy access to the vaccine, healthcare and other prevention measures are whining about them. I don’t understand it. None of it is any harder or more demanding than wearing a seatbelt or getting a flu shot. And by failing to take simple steps, the pandemic rages on and is prolonged. Thanks, I missed this somehow. 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 9/23/2021 at 8:04 PM, CelestialSeething said: You know the covid vaccines are different than other vaccines, right? How? Link to comment
Popular Post pogi Posted October 5, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: How? It is the only MRNA vaccine on the market. People like to try and create doubt/fear in the vaccine by trying to make it sound like there is only 1 type of vaccine and Covid is not that type of vaccine I wonder if these people realize that the tetanus/diphtheria vaccine (the only toxoid vaccine on the market) is different from other vaccines too. So what? Types of vaccines: Inactivated Live attenuated Subunit Recombinant Polysaccharide Conjugate Toxoid Viral vector MRNA And there is also the brand new and world's first DNA vaccine https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02385-x Very promising for future DNA vaccine development! I don't remember the same doubt/fear in the public when these other novel vaccine technologies were developed. No one was decrying, "but it's different from other vaccines!" after they were proven to be safe and effective. Edited October 5, 2021 by pogi 7 Link to comment
poptart Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 9/22/2021 at 9:54 PM, Calm said: Is this your guess or do you see it as more of a fact? If the latter, I would be interested in seeing some documentation for this claim as it tends to be the reverse of what I have seen, except maybe for one strange case and that group is not a majority. From my own experience, I believe church members tend to be distrustful of the government, though this varies greatly depending on what country they live in. Russian members had very high distrust, saw the government as completely corrupt; Canadians saw the government as more there for their benefit in my experience…would be interested to hear how Canadians think of their own general views; Americans in my experience tend to be very skeptical of the government and politicians in general. American members in my experience generally talk about politicians in negative ways or treat someone as the best of a generally at least milquetoast if not bad lot. On occasion I have seen enthusiasm for a candidate, but enthusiasm usually wanes as the politician once elected has to make compromises or puts their foot in their mouth a few times. I've always found LDS members opinions of the US gov't interesting, on paper they tend to go the Republican route but get to know some of them and well..... Case in point, one of my good friends who is LDS is about as liberal as I am and big surprise, love the direction the LDS church is going in regards to racism, social justice and those who are LGBTQ. The rest of the membership? Interesting to observe from afar. The one side I have where pretty much half of em are Members do like I do, smile, nod and appreciate them for who they are while just keeping our mouths shut, at least the ones I talk to. Granted, the ones I talk to are quite a bit older and only know me through my father/grandparents, I'm the oddity esp. since moms not from the mainland. Needless to say, their kids can be a different matter, covid/vax included. Anymore I find the traditional Christian way of doing things so practical, smile, nod and when need be be a bit vague. Something I've grown to love about Christianity, especially as it is in the USA, it can be so passive aggressive, once you figure that out wow it's so practical. Best part, you can really irritate people while looking as clean as freshly fallen snow. (sarcasm, i'm not serious!) This kind of sums up how I feel about a lot of the whole covid thing, I love Franciscans, between them, Dominicans and Jesuits I can't pic a fav. This guy gives them just enough brownie points from me to almost be #1. 1 Link to comment
poptart Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 On 9/22/2021 at 8:08 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: Sorry, I don't follow half of what you wrote above, and beyond that, I'm just not willing to take the bait. I sat in a meeting with Pres Hinckley once where he told us that people who prophesied 'doom and gloom' (his words) regarding the US simply do not understand the nation's established/promised role as protector and defender of the Church's headquarters. Call me naïve, but I trust his grasp of the matter more than yours. >Nation's established/promised role as protector and defender of the Church's headquarters. Mind expanding on that a bit for me? I'd appreciate it. Link to comment
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