Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope."

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, Rain said:

I think you are the only one talking about 'forcibly" pinning people down to give them the vaccine.  I know Nehor said he would or something along those lines, but he is Nehor.

 

Yes, I'm really riding The Nehor horse hard. Part of the reason for this is to try to tease him to come out and play. But he forbears participation in my tease, so I shall give it up.

 

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I suspect that this downplay of the virus and perception that it is not a serious threat plays a significant role in lower republican vaccination rates.  It also plays a significant role in resistance against vaccine mandates.  Unfortunately it also plays a significant role in lower vaccine rates in that population and thus higher hospitalizations/deaths.  Not taking the virus seriously coupled with a strong distrust in government is much more likely to explain low vaccination rates in Utah than availability of vaccine.  

I'm very annoyed at all this. It doesn't make sense. And it is bloody stupid <- that's my inner Brit coming out to play.

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm very annoyed at all this. It doesn't make sense. And it is bloody stupid <- that's my inner Brit coming out to play.

Just to clarify, is this directed at my comment, or the downplaying of the virus/resistance to vaccines?

[pogi]

Not sure where to post this, but here is an interesting poll in Utah:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50243473/poll-results-should-politicians-or-public-health-officials-make-the-call-on-mask-mandates

Quote

In March of this year, the Utah Legislature passed a law restricting local governments' powers to enact mask mandates.  Do you approve/disapprove of this law?

31% strongly approve, and 31% strongly disapprove.
13% somewhat approve, and 12% somewhat disapprove.
12% not sure

Almost a perfect split right down the middle.  But when asked a different question, we see something very interesting:

Quote

53% of Utahns believe public health departments should control whether or not face coverings are required — 26% say that authority should rest with the Utah Department of Health and 27%, with the state's local health departments.

Just 8% want to see the Utah Legislature have control over whether or not to enact a mask mandate, while another 8% chose the governor; 14%, local elected officials; and 18% weren't sure

My question is, why the inconsistency with those who approve of the law?  Clearly the vast majority in Utah think that health departments should control whether or not to enact a mask mandate while only a tiny fraction think that the Utah Legislature should.  Why the inconsistency?  Are people just deferring to their political loyalty in support of the law with the first question? 

Edited September 17, 2021 by pogi

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

Just to clarify, is this directed at my comment, or the downplaying of the virus/resistance to vaccines?

Sorry. I'm annoyed at Utah Republicans and whatever they've been drinking/smoking/shooting.

Thank goodness I am a Libertarian. But I tend to vote Republican, since there's no Libertarians with a snowball's chance of winning any office. And half of the ones who do run have no sense of direction when it comes to making political pronouncements. 

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not sure where to post this, but here is an interesting poll in Utah:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50243473/poll-results-should-politicians-or-public-health-officials-make-the-call-on-mask-mandates

Almost a perfect split right down the middle.  But when asked a different question, we see something very interesting:

My question is, why the inconsistency with those who approve of the law?  Clearly the vast majority in Utah think that health departments should control whether or not to enact a mask mandate while only a tiny fraction think that the Utah Legislature should.  Why the inconsistency?  Are people just deferring to their political loyalty in support of the law with the first question? 

I have no idea what to think about this.

For me, I comply with mask mandates just because it's socially acceptable -- I don't have any confidence that the masks people commonly wear provide any protection worth a darn. Those cloth masks have a weave that is basically transparent to virus particles, because the viruses are like a quadcopter flying under the Golden Gate Bridge. I flew from the UK to the US and back in July, and both ways I had to take a Covid test and test negative, and despite the fact that everyone on the flipping plane tested negative, they made us all wear masks for the entire flight. Maybe someone who tested negative had just that morning inhaled a virus particle and was going to test negative in day or two -- what's the incubation period with Covid, I have no idea -- but presumably even that person wasn't chugging out virus particles yet.

I feel that the mask mandate is nothing more than show-and-tell or eye-wash -- it looks good, but that's all it's worth.

Has anyone published a study showing that those cloth masks work? Doesn't matter, I'll just keep wearing the things.

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I have no idea what to think about this.

For me, I comply with mask mandates just because it's socially acceptable -- I don't have any confidence that the masks people commonly wear provide any protection worth a darn. Those cloth masks have a weave that is basically transparent to virus particles, because the viruses are like a quadcopter flying under the Golden Gate Bridge. I flew from the UK to the US and back in July, and both ways I had to take a Covid test and test negative, and despite the fact that everyone on the flipping plane tested negative, they made us all wear masks for the entire flight. Maybe someone who tested negative had just that morning inhaled a virus particle and was going to test negative in day or two -- what's the incubation period with Covid, I have no idea -- but presumably even that person wasn't chugging out virus particles yet.

I feel that the mask mandate is nothing more than show-and-tell or eye-wash -- it looks good, but that's all it's worth.

Has anyone published a study showing that those cloth masks work? Doesn't matter, I'll just keep wearing the things.

Many, many studies have been posted on these forums showing the efficacy of different types of masks (including different fabrics) and also showing the efficacy of mask mandates.  They don't stop aerosols super good, but dropplets are the primary mode of transmission, and they do stop them at varying degrees of efficacy.  Even with aerosols though, they do help a little, especially in reducing the distance that they travel.  

The incubation period for Covid is between 2 and 14 days.  Another reason that they likely make you mask anyway on the plane is because false negative tests are not terribly uncommon.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, I'm really riding The Nehor horse hard. Part of the reason for this is to try to tease him to come out and play. But he forbears participation in my tease, so I shall give it up.

 

Sorry, I have been busy being a degenerate deviant.

Though I am pretty sure the ‘pin down and force vaccinate’ someone scenario was created by you.

Don’t worry. I am not into kink shaming.

[Stargazer]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Sorry, I have been busy being a degenerate deviant.

No problem. We all have to have our hobbies.

Just now, The Nehor said:

Though I am pretty sure the ‘pin down and force vaccinate’ someone scenario was created by you.

Don’t worry. I am not into kink shaming.

Sure, I created the scenario, but you were agreeable and said you'd do it. Thanks for playing! Maybe we could use it as a threat for all those twits who refuse vaccination for stupid reasons. "If you don't get the shot, we will send The Nehor!" You never know, it might scare them into acting rationally.

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

No problem. We all have to have our hobbies.

Sure, I created the scenario, but you were agreeable and said you'd do it. Thanks for playing! Maybe we could use it as a threat for all those twits who refuse vaccination for stupid reasons. "If you don't get the shot, we will send The Nehor!" You never know, it might scare them into acting rationally.

 

If it works I will play the part. Should I wear the rubber supervillain suit or the Sith robe to the photo shoot? Or both? Let me know.

Edit: I will leave it up to the reader to decide whether I actually have both of those. 😎

Edited September 18, 2021 by The Nehor

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If it works I will play the part. Should I wear the rubber supervillain suit or the Sith robe to the photo shoot? Or both? Let me know.

Edit: I will leave it up to the reader to decide whether I actually have both of those. 😎

Definitely wear the Sith robe!

[Peacefully]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dallasnews.com/news/2021/09/17/first-baptists-robert-jeffress-there-is-no-credible-religious-argument-against-the-vaccines/%3FoutputType%3Damp

We even got a mention in the article:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not provide religious exemptions for vaccines for members, according to church spokesman Eric Hawkins. Leaders of the Utah-based faith have made pleas for members to get vaccinated even as doctrine acknowledges it’s up to individual choice.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Peacefully

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dallasnews.com/news/2021/09/17/first-baptists-robert-jeffress-there-is-no-credible-religious-argument-against-the-vaccines/%3FoutputType%3Damp

Interesting comment. I wonder if it is accurate. Maybe will check. 
 

Quote

There is no credible religious argument against the vaccines,” the downtown megachurch’s senior pastor told The Associated Press in an email. “Christians who are troubled by the use of a fetal cell line for the testing of the vaccines would also have to abstain from the use of Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Ibuprofen, and other products that used the same cell line if they are sincere in their objection.”

Added:  looks like it is true (I am assuming the hospital did its homework):

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/prove-it-hospital-asks-unvaccinated-employees-claiming-religious-exemption.html

Edited September 18, 2021 by Calm

[esodije]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:39 AM, ksfisher said:

They did.

"Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs."

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-leaders-covid-19-vaccine

And what is my daughter supposed to do if her cardiologist won’t support her decision not to take the vaccine? Most doctors and practitioners nowadays continually follow the path of least perceived exposure to malpractice liability—they sure as heck aren’t following anything approximating the Spirit.

[provoman]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Interesting comment. I wonder if it is accurate. Maybe will check. 
 

Added:  looks like it is true (I am assuming the hospital did its homework):

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/prove-it-hospital-asks-unvaccinated-employees-claiming-religious-exemption.html

I found that interesting and funny that people specified exact reason for the religious exemption.

I would have gone something like "my choices are between me and my God", and not try and give such a specific reason. 

[esodije]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:33 PM, JustAnAustralian said:

Nothing about the church's statement is political.

It’s all political in the U.S., simply because half the country doesn’t trust the motives of the other half, especially regarding public-health measures that have huge economic implications, not to mention their impact on individual liberties and primary/secondary education. For the church to take any official position, effectively affirming what America’s execrable political class (including all the public-health apparatchiks) is trying to compel us to do, is bound to raise the hackles of more than a few church members. The First Presidency knows this, but they aren’t about to give anyone an excuse to believe that they’re bucking the orthodoxy or encouraging their members to do so.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, esodije said:

It’s all political in the U.S. ... For the church to take any official position, effectively affirming what America’s execrable political class (including all the public-health apparatchiks) is trying to compel us to do, is bound to raise the hackles of more than a few church members.

It's not the Church's problem if people in a certain nation politicise things that aren't inherently political. Many people live in nations where simply preaching Christ has political implications. Prophets don't let that stop them standing up for truth either.

[BlueDreams]

13 hours ago, esodije said:

And what is my daughter supposed to do if her cardiologist won’t support her decision not to take the vaccine? Most doctors and practitioners nowadays continually follow the path of least perceived exposure to malpractice liability—they sure as heck aren’t following anything approximating the Spirit.

That you’re asking about a cardiologist who won’t support that decision, it should be fairly obvious why. Covid caries far more risks to the heart and cardiovascular system than the vaccine. It‘s not liability that’s a concern but her actual health and giving sound medical advice, which I assume if she’s seeing a cardiologist is already somewhat compromised. At best I would assume all that would change from most cardiologists about the vaccine is delivery, not the medical consultation.

personally, with my daughter’s team of medical professionals, I’m not expecting them to be seeking out the Spirit in their recommendations for medical treatment. They’re not an ecclesiastical leader, they may not even be of my faith. It’s not their job or stewardship. What is their job is for them to direct me in medical knowledge that I likely don’t have because I haven’t been trained in said field. Our religious leaders have already given us guidance from a spiritual stance, both by example, unofficial, and official statements….all of which strongly encourage both trusting/talking to your doctors and getting vaccinated. 

 

So she could seek out a 2nd opinion from another cardiologist, but again I wouldn’t expect much difference in opinion on this. beyond that, it may be time for her to re-evaluate her decision and the information she’s used to bolster it. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited September 19, 2021 by BlueDreams

[CA Steve]

What would be really cool is if God had the foresight to arrange it so his current mouthpiece on earth just happened to be a doctor who could provide divine and informed medical advice simultaneously to His children. 

[Tacenda]

On 9/17/2021 at 4:11 PM, Stargazer said:

I have no idea what to think about this.

For me, I comply with mask mandates just because it's socially acceptable -- I don't have any confidence that the masks people commonly wear provide any protection worth a darn. Those cloth masks have a weave that is basically transparent to virus particles, because the viruses are like a quadcopter flying under the Golden Gate Bridge. I flew from the UK to the US and back in July, and both ways I had to take a Covid test and test negative, and despite the fact that everyone on the flipping plane tested negative, they made us all wear masks for the entire flight. Maybe someone who tested negative had just that morning inhaled a virus particle and was going to test negative in day or two -- what's the incubation period with Covid, I have no idea -- but presumably even that person wasn't chugging out virus particles yet.

I feel that the mask mandate is nothing more than show-and-tell or eye-wash -- it looks good, but that's all it's worth.

Has anyone published a study showing that those cloth masks work? Doesn't matter, I'll just keep wearing the things.

Did you catch my comment, or maybe I made it on FB, not sure, that a school I worked at recently, has had more covid cases than all of last year when it was a mask mandate and we've only been in school for about a month? I was in an elementary school. Does this change my bolded statement in your comments? 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[CelestialSeething]

On 9/10/2021 at 3:49 PM, smac97 said:

Assertions that belief in agency provide “a valid religious objection” to government mandates, the letter says, “have never been supported by the church.”

Good thing my relationship with the Savior is personal.

I have a religious exemption and I don't need anyone in the church to approve it. 

Agency is not the valid religious objection. 

Autonomy, components of the vaccines, negative side effects, etc. are some of the reasons. 

If the US was patterned after what CA does, we'd be more lost than we arleady are.

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, CelestialSeething said:

Good thing my relationship with the Savior is personal.

I have a religious exemption and I don't need anyone in the church to approve it. 

Agency is not the valid religious objection. 

Autonomy, components of the vaccines, negative side effects, etc. are some of the reasons. 

If the US was patterned after what CA does, we'd be more lost than we arleady are.

Welcome to the board!

Are you LDS?

[Stargazer]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:11 PM, Tacenda said:

Did you catch my comment, or maybe I made it on FB, not sure, that a school I worked at recently, has had more covid cases than all of last year when it was a mask mandate and we've only been in school for about a month? I was in an elementary school. Does this change my bolded statement in your comments? 

Don't remember seeing it here, but no matter. My mind is changed on this now. Earlier @pogi gave some stats about it all, responding to the same sentence you've responded to here.

I'm not the type to resist actual data, just because I cannot admit I am wrong. 

But even masked and vaccinated, we're still not out of the woods. My stepdaughter and her husband, fully vaccinated, caught Covid from their kids as soon as the government here in the UK allowed schools to open.

[esodije]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:05 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's not the Church's problem if people in a certain nation politicise things that aren't inherently political. Many people live in nations where simply preaching Christ has political implications. Prophets don't let that stop them standing up for truth either.

When a majority of church members reflexively believe that whatever their political leaders (and the latter’s public-health chupamedias) say is “truth,” I guess we’ll know for sure that LDS is no longer an “American” denomination. I personally believe the US is ripe for a catastrophic breakup (sooner rather than later, if the rest of the world decides to stop propping up the US dollar), so…HQ in Canada? Mexico?

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, esodije said:

I personally believe the US is ripe for a catastrophic breakup (sooner rather than later, if the rest of the world decides to stop propping up the US dollar), so…HQ in Canada? Mexico?

Sorry, I don't follow half of what you wrote above, and beyond that, I'm just not willing to take the bait. I sat in a meeting with Pres Hinckley once where he told us that people who prophesied 'doom and gloom' (his words) regarding the US simply do not understand the nation's established/promised role as protector and defender of the Church's headquarters. Call me naïve, but I trust his grasp of the matter more than yours.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan