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AP article on Church/Covid/vaccine’s dividing members


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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Real world stories show otherwise. I would love to find US numbers on this but they are very hard to find. 

 

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312538

Yeah, I read the study summary and the few others I could find. The research is limited because the time frame is limited to have the long term studies needed...so what you're going to find is a lot of individual studies at best (I think I could find 3-4) all of them (including the israel study) with limitations. The israel study focused on pfizer and likely disproportionately had people with symptomatic infections and focused on people several months after infection/vaccination. Which is part of the reason the US decided to open up boosters. It also still stated that receiving a vaccine after infection increased immune response even further and that there were indications of waning immunity in the infected (if I read it right....the wording was a little weird). This also then has to be placed in line other like studies, studying varying aspects of reinfection questions. I haven't found one that really covers all of my questions all at once.  

What you still get is that one can still reduce the infection rate even further by being vaxxed an appropriate amount of time after infection. On the individual level this may not be huge difference. But on a large scale with a substantial part of the population that can't be vaccinated (12 unders), this little edge can add up. It's still about seeing the society and efforts on the effects of the whole and weighing what would be best for the larger population. That balance isn't easy for me to fully come to by myself. I don't have the education and training needed to fully assess, so I have to rely on those that do. And those currently have the consensus to vaccinate all the population, previous infection or no, for the better good of the whole 

 

If you're wondering how I judge them, specifically....I still judge it as not the best reasoning. My closest cousin for a while fell into this camp for a little bit. But she's also intellectually oriented. So when more research started to trickle in that indicated there were benefits from vaccinating even after infection, she got the vax. There is reason why to get it even after infection, I don't get the reasons why not. 

Quote

The vaccines lose their potency faster than natural immunity

Yes, but one also has farrrr less of a chance of "complications"  from a vaccine than an infection. Not that I think you're suggesting one hope for natural infections.

 

With luv,

BD

 

Edited by BlueDreams
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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Meidastouch did a short video on the people who are the primary source for all all the hysteria about the vaccine not being safe.

In short they are unqualified and they lie a lot.

I think we need to be careful about using words such as "hysteria".  It  doesn't help us listen to each other just like I need to do work to get past my personal annoyance of when some call people like me "terrified." It's just one more thing that gets in the way of good communication.

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For those of you who like podcasts (for some strange reason), a friend of mine sent me the following:

        https://www.thechurchnews.com/podcast/2021-08-17/episode-44-podcast-historian-richard-turley-vaccinations-face-masks-222519

I didn't know the church news had a podcast. Weird, right?

Anyway, I was going to ignore it completely (like I usually do with podcasts) but I went ahead and checked the link just to see how long it was (34:13, btw)...

When what to my wondrous eyes did appear, but a transcript below so please click without fear!

 

Edited by Amulek
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2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

how is the advice he has given any different than countless other private and public health officials?

It isn't. That's what makes Pres Nelson's directions+examples awesome.

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4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Although numbers vary, most articles say that about 90% of people hospitalized with covid are unvaccinated . Some hospitals are now at capacity for ICU beds etc. what happens if a bus has a bad accident in that hospital's zone and 20 ICU beds are needed ASAP? Do they unhook the covid patients to make room? 

they ship them off to other provinces, or hallway medicine-that's where we are at. 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

fhvpuceobmk71.png?width=651&auto=webp&s=

My recommendation was to use the kpop people who drowned out Proud Boy communications during the height of the BLM protests by overrunning every channel they tried to use with kpop stuff.

This works too though.

Well, that answers the "What is the horse porn good for?" question. Box checked.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

We just had Stake Conference with Elder Clayton(an anesthesiologist) presiding.  The email the Stake Presidency sent to the stake read as follows:

"We want you to know that we will livestream all sessions except for the special youth session Sunday morning.  So if you would rather stay home and watch from there (and not have to wear a mask), you're welcome to do so. "

It later reads...

"If you would like to attend in person...please plan to wear a mask if social distancing is not possible."

I watched from home.  There were probably only 1/3 of the members wearing masks...if that.  Not even the chorister and many others on the stand were wearing masks. 

Never in my life...  What is happening? 

After reading the unfiltered sentiment on boards such as LDSfreedomforum, I wonder if the division over this issue wasn't supposed to happen.  

The brazen serpent has been raised.

I live in Salt Lake County with far more than 8 cases and 11,000 people.   

I gotta hand it to God. I did not see ‘taking precautions to avoid a deadly plague’ being a wheat and chaff issue. I often believe I am chaff but I like to think that my reasons are at least a little better than whatever the reason here is.

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2 hours ago, Amulek said:

For those of you who like podcasts (for some strange reason), a friend of mine sent me the following:

        https://www.thechurchnews.com/podcast/2021-08-17/episode-44-podcast-historian-richard-turley-vaccinations-face-masks-222519

I didn't know the church news had a podcast. Weird, right?

Anyway, I was going to ignore it completely (like I usually do with podcasts) but I went ahead and checked the link just to see how long it was (34:13, btw)...

When what to my wondrous eyes did appear, but a transcript below so please click without fear!

 

This so great, thanks for sharing!

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3 hours ago, Amulek said:

For those of you who like podcasts (for some strange reason), a friend of mine sent me the following:

        https://www.thechurchnews.com/podcast/2021-08-17/episode-44-podcast-historian-richard-turley-vaccinations-face-masks-222519

I didn't know the church news had a podcast. Weird, right?

Anyway, I was going to ignore it completely (like I usually do with podcasts) but I went ahead and checked the link just to see how long it was (34:13, btw)...

When what to my wondrous eyes did appear, but a transcript below so please click without fear!

 

Thanks for sharing and mentioning the transcript.  It was good. 

Have to laugh at this line though, "If you go to the Church’s website and just Google “malaria,” you might be surprised what you learn about the disease."

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10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

They already had covid. They have natural immunity. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed.

What studies?  From the reports I have heard, natural immunity is not as strong as the immunity with the vaccine and its less effective against variants. 

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I gotta hand it to God. I did not see ‘taking precautions to avoid a deadly plague’ being a wheat and chaff issue.

I have to admit that I'm repeatedly confused by what makes disciples go back 'and walk no more with him'.

Metaphorical teachings about Jesus being the bread of life? Check.

The Church refusing to adopt and normalise late 19th-century social constructions of gender and sexuality that go against everything God has ever taught on the topic? Check.

Being encouraged to take universally accepted public health measures during the worst pandemic in over a century? Check.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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On 8/31/2021 at 10:04 AM, bsjkki said:

I know people on both sides of this issue. Some feel personally targeted because they are not vaccinated and feel their faith is being questioned. They have natural immunity even and feel they are being told they are not ‘following the prophet.’ One was told by their doctor not to get the vaccine. 
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-health-religion-coronavirus-pandemic-f42772097cf7557086f12b549e03b18a
 

Others feel, not getting vaccinated or wearing a mask is a selfish, unfaithful decision. Even after the letter, the wards I have been to, wear masks in a very limited way.

It’s an interesting article.

The letter from the First Presidency was, IMHO, opinion, counsel, not doctrine. 

One letter, to me, does not equal a concert of clarity (Elder Bednar, Oct 2020 General COnf: "The consistency of prophetic counsel over time creates a powerful concert of clarity and a warning volume far louder than solo performances can ever produce.")

Their letter to me seems more like PR / Public Affiars material that can be used as an exhibit or addendum in a breifing submitted to BIden or Romney about efforts the Church has made to comply w/ the only "approved" treatment, when the tax status of the Church is examined by our benevolent IRS.

I seem to recall Elder Ballard - maybe others - in General COnference encouraging members to seek professinal medical advice and healthcare from licensed physicians. So, no I don't think the FIrst Presidency wants people to ignore their doctors' recommendations. 

The effectiveness of masks:https://rationalground.com/mask-charts/ 

I'm not getting vaccinated and have no problem w/ my faith. If other do, that is their decision not mine.

 

Relatedly:

 

 

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8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

What studies?  From the reports I have heard, natural immunity is not as strong as the immunity with the vaccine and its less effective against variants. 

A large Israeli study shows that getting the Wuhan Flu and recovering confers “durable immunity,” thirteen times better than the vaccine. The National Institutes of Health leans on a modeling study to say that the vaccine is better. But both can’t be true. So the critical thinker must ask why the results conflict. The NIH funded study looked at mechanisms, but the Israeli study looked at people. Mechanisms don’t get sick, people do. So the NIH proclamation doesn’t fit with the facts on the ground. Another government agency has lied to us. How long have they been lying? And about what subjects?

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21 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Although numbers vary, most articles say that about 90% of people hospitalized with covid are unvaccinated . Some hospitals are now at capacity for ICU beds etc. what happens if a bus has a bad accident in that hospital's zone and 20 ICU beds are needed ASAP? Do they unhook the covid patients to make room? 

No. They will ensure the media blames the unvaccinated

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https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/2021/8/18/22628734/delta-variant-covid-vaccine-israel-does-it-work

The above article shows that the current vaccines might not be the solution.  I know a lot of people here automatically discount anything non-vaccine related.  However, history has shown that sometimes medical science makes mistakes on the way to finding the correct remedy.  Perhaps more should be done in the area of repurposed drugs?  In any event, I don't think I will be getting my kids vaccinated against covid any time soon.  They don't have that much of a risk and it looks like the vaccines aren't as effective as advertised.

Thankfully, the chances of death from covid among children is really small.

 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.08.21260210v1.full.pdf

Quote

For persons 0-19 years, the median IFR was one death per 37,000 persons with COVID-19
infection, followed by estimates of 1:7100 in ages 20-29, 1:3200 in ages 30-39, and 1:1200 in ages
40-49. The Imperial College study (52) has 5-10 times higher estimates for persons 0-19 years and
20-29 years old; otherwise estimates in age groups <50 years are fairly consistent across previous (4,
5) and current analyses despite methodological differences. Thus, they may be used for assessing
risk-benefits, e.g. with specific vaccines (54) in young populations.

 

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48 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I know a lot of people here automatically discount anything non-vaccine related. 

Not at all. Masking and social distancing are widely accepted among folks, who trust consensus of qualified experts.

 

50 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

However, history has shown that sometimes medical science makes mistakes on the way to finding the correct remedy.  Perhaps more should be done in the area of repurposed drugs?

Repurposing drugs like horse dewormer for Covid - those are indeed mistakes. Fortunately, medical science isn't responsible for that misinformation. The horse dewormer calls to poison control centers resulted from folks who listened to discredited, manipulative outliers, who convinced them to mistrust the broad consensus of credible, qualified experts.

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18 minutes ago, stelf said:

Hi everyone I have been lurking for years and have almost never posted.  However, I came across this from a coworker (I work in clinical research as a biostatistician) and found it interesting and related to the discussion.

https://salthillstatistics.com/posts/109

This addresses the claims about the effectiveness of vaccines and a phenomenon called Simpson's paradox (a pretty fascinating topic in and of itself if you want my nerdy opinion).

I wonder how many of the severely affected/hospitalized have other health problems and/or are obese?  The simpson paradox data/discussion didn't mention this.  https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html

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