Jump to content

Is Investment Income earned on Tithing still Tithing Funds?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think interest earned is the same thing as a donation, whether tithing, fast offering, whatever. However, I think the point the OP is trying to make is it is very difficult, if not impossible, to separate the funds if they are all held in common in the same account(s). I don't know if the church separates actual donated funds from any investment income. If it all happens to sit in an account together and then the church writes a check for $30 million for a mall or some other real estate investment I'm not sure how anyone would know whether or not tithing funds were used.

I think I could easily do it on the budgeting software that I use.  I have to think that the program the church uses could do it. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems pretty simple.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Just to clarify I decided my argument did not have merit.  Earnings on tithing is not tithing.

Okay.  Thank you for the clarification.

I think the key defining features of a tithe, a charitable contribution, are the source, purpose and destination of the money.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

What Is a Charitable Donation?

A charitable donation is a gift of cash or property made to a nonprofit organization to help it accomplish its goals for which the donor receives nothing of value in return.

And here:

Quote

Charitable Contributions

By FindLaw Staff | Reviewed by Maddy Teka, Esq. | Last updated February 16, 2021
 

Charitable contributions, also known as charitable donations, are gifts made to qualified organizations that have obtained 501(c)(3) tax status, such as educational institutions, religious organizations, government entities, and other charities. Qualified organizations typically receive most of their funding and support from gifts, grants, and contributions from the public.

And here:

Quote

The Technical IRS Definition

A charitable contribution is when you donate money (including securities or business ownership interests), goods or services to an organization and deduct the market value of the contribution on your income tax return. The IRS elaborates:

“Contributions must be made to qualified organizations to be deductible. You cannot deduct contributions made to specific individuals, political organizations and candidates.”

Here, “qualified organizations” is the phrase to pay attention to. The IRS does not allow you to “donate” money to your Uncle Bob up the road or the pizza shop downtown and deduct it from your income taxes. Generally, the only charitable donation deductions you can take are donations made to not for profit 501(c)(3) charitable organizations, but not all nonprofits qualify. More specifically, an organization must have a religious, educational, literary, charitable, or scientific purpose and 501(c)(3) status from the IRS. If you are unsure whether an organization qualifies, use this IRS search tool to figure it out.

And here:

Quote

charitable contribution

n. in taxation, a contribution to an organization which is officially created for charitable, religious, educational, scientific, artistic, literary, or other good works. Such contributions are deductible from gross income, and thus lower the taxes paid.

So far I have not found any legal source supporting the - in my view - kooky idea that "charitable contribution" includes . . . any revenues, profits, interests, etc. derived from the donee's investment of the contribution.

And so far the proponents of this idea (Analytics et al.) have failed to present any supporting authority for it.  They have their speculative say-so, and that's it.

-Smac

Edited by smac97
Link to comment
4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  Thank you for the clarification.

I think the key defining features of a tithe, a charitable contribution, are the source, purpose and destination of of the money.  See, e.g., here:

And here:

And here:

And here:

So far I have not found any legal source supporting the - in my view - kooky idea that "charitable contribution" includes . . . any revenues, profits, interests, etc. derived from the donee's investment of the contribution.

And so far the proponents of this idea (Analytics et al.) have failed to present any supporting authority for it.  They have their speculative say-so, and that's it.

-Smac

All well and good, but let's be clear that not all charitable contributions are tithe payments.  Tithing is always only 10% of a person's income and it is payment of a commandment that we should give/donate 10% of our income/increase in money to the Lord through the Lord's representatives who are responsible for being the stewards of that money, as the Lord helps them to know what to do with that money.

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

All well and good, but let's be clear that not all charitable contributions are tithe payments. 

True.  But I think it's fair to say that all tithe payments are charitable contributions.  The former is a subset of the latter (like "all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs").

11 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Tithing is always only 10% of a person's income and it is payment of a commandment that we should give/donate 10% of our income/increase in money to the Lord through the Lord's representatives who are responsible for being the stewards of that money, as the Lord helps them to know what to do with that money.

That's the religious definition.  The secular / legal / technical / accounting definition can be quite complex, but it hews toward those I provided.

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

True.  But I think it's fair to say that all tithe payments are charitable contributions.  The former is a subset of the latter (like "all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs").

That's the religious definition.  The secular / legal / technical / accounting definition can be quite complex, but it hews toward those I provided.

Thanks,

-Smac

Tithing is a religious thing.  Charitable contributions include tithing but there are many other types of charitable contributions other than tithing and those others are not tithe payments.  Even in our own Church, the Lord's church, there are many other types of charitable contributions, other than tithing payments.  Such as charitable contributions to the Church humanitarian aid fund, and perpetual education fund, and the general missionary fund, and the ward missionary fund, and the fast offering fund, all of which are not tithe payments and hence those charitable contributions do not go into the tithing fund.

Edited by bOObOO
Link to comment
1 hour ago, smac97 said:

That's not all they are, though.  The source is different.  I am the source of "tithing," but not the source of "investment income."

If I donate $1,000 to the Church, and if the Church then turns around and invests $250 of that and generates profits of an additional $250, then the Church now has $1,000 from me and my charitable contribution and $250 from an investment in a farm, a mutual fund, or whatever.

Of course. But if the Church then spends $100, it would be misleading to say the $100 was from interest and not from principal. The money is all fungible on the balance sheet.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And now you're saying there is no such thing as "tithing" or "investment income."

No, I said those were items on the income statement, not on the balance sheet.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Right.

I'm sure the IRS would agree.

Absolutely they would agree with me. The IRS understands the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet.

Link to comment

The way I parse this is that no earned interest on tithing is not tithing (since it doesn't involve the people who gave it, and it is immediately and fully the Lords upon deposit into the bishop's hands.   But absolutely yes, the church should treat it every bit as sacredly as tithing funds are treated.

Link to comment
19 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Tithing is a religious thing. 

I agree.  But it's also a secular thing.  It has secular dimensions and definitions.  For taxes, accounting, etc.

19 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Charitable contributions include tithing but there are many other types of charitable contributions other than tithing and those others are not tithe payments.  Even in our own Church, the Lord's church, there are many other types of charitable contributions, other than tithing payments.  Such as charitable contributions to the Church humanitarian aid fund, and perpetual education fund, and the general missionary fund, and the ward missionary fund, and the fast offering fund, all of which are not tithe payments and hence those charitable contributions do not go into the tithing fund.

Agreed.

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I agree.  But it's also a secular thing.  It has secular dimensions and definitions.  For taxes, accounting, etc.

You're saying tithing is a secular thing, as well as a religious thing?  I have never heard that before.  Where did you get that idea?  Everyone I've ever heard of who pays tithing believes they are paying that money to God through men who represent him.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Analytics said:
Quote

That's not all they are, though.  The source is different.  I am the source of "tithing," but not the source of "investment income."

If I donate $1,000 to the Church, and if the Church then turns around and invests $250 of that and generates profits of an additional $250, then the Church now has $1,000 from me and my charitable contribution and $250 from an investment in a farm, a mutual fund, or whatever.

Of course. But if the Church then spends $100, it would be misleading to say the $100 was from interest and not from principal. The money is all fungible on the balance sheet.

Meh.  You're just making this up as you go along.

If the Church receives $1,000, and then invests $250 of that donation and generates profits of an additional $250, then the Church has $1,250.  If the Church thereafter spends $100, and refuses to authorize any expenditure that would take the balance of the accumulated money below $1,001, then the principal remains untouched.

The "it would be misleading" stuff is a contrivance.  I reject it.

1 hour ago, Analytics said:
Quote

And now you're saying there is no such thing as "tithing" or "investment income."

No, I said those were items on the income statement, not on the balance sheet.

You said:

Quote

Here is the problem. "Tithing" and "investment income" are items on an income statement. In contrast, "EPA's asset portfolio," and "the Church's treasury account" are items on a balance sheet. Strictly speaking, Hinckley was correct when he said "tithing money" wasn't used, because none of the Church's money is "tithing money." Likewise, none of the money is investment income. The Church can say, "Let's sell $50 million of stock in Apple, transfer that to Property Reserve, and use it to buy a ranch." But it can't say, "Let's spend $50 million of "tithing money on the ranch." That is because there isn't an asset called "tithing money."

I think a primary reason your thinking on this is so muddled is because you don't understand the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet. 

First you conflate tithing with profits generated from tithes as being indistinguishable from each other.  This despite the fact that the IRS certainly doesn't view the two things and interchangeable.  One comes from a donor, the other does not.  One comes from an investment in a farm or stock or piece of real estate or whatever, the other does not.  One is a charitable donation, the other is not.  

Then, you come along and say "none of the Church's money is 'tithing money' ... {and} none none of the money is investment income" "there isn't an asset called 'tithing money.'"

I'm not an accountant, and certainly no expert in tax law.  But your various statements on this issue are A) barebones, and B) facially nonsensical.  They only become coherent if and when their utility as brickbats against the Church are kept in view.

1 hour ago, Analytics said:
Quote

I'm sure the IRS would agree.

Absolutely they would agree with me. The IRS understands the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet.

The IRS also understands the difference between a charitable donation and profits realized by the donee's subsequent investment of the donation.

You, on the other hand, treat these as being 1 to 1 identical.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
Link to comment
2 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

You're saying tithing is a secular thing, as well as a religious thing?  I have never heard that before.  Where did you get that idea?  Everyone I've ever heard of who pays tithing believes they are paying that money to God through men who represent him.

As long as the money you're using to pay tithing was printed at the US Mint (or wherever other countries print their money) there is a secular component. 

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

You're saying tithing is a secular thing, as well as a religious thing?  I have never heard that before.  Where did you get that idea?  Everyone I've ever heard of who pays tithing believes they are paying that money to God through men who represent him.

Yes.  But most people who pay tithing also claim it as a deduction on their income taxes.  Tithing is a religious exercise, but it also has secular meaning and dimensions.

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  But most people who pay tithing also claim it as a deduction on their income taxes.  Tithing is a religious exercise, but it also has secular meaning and dimensions.

Thanks,

-Smac

Ah, I think I see what you meant now.  Tithing is a secular thing as well as a religious thing because in the secular world tithing (10% of payment income/increase to God) is considered a charitable contribution. I think I agree now.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Of course. But if the Church then spends $100, it would be misleading to say the $100 was from interest and not from principal. The money is all fungible on the balance sheet.

No, I said those were items on the income statement, not on the balance sheet.

Absolutely they would agree with me. The IRS understands the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet.

Uh.  The IRS knows that non profits don't use an income statement they use a statement of revenue and a statment of functional expenses. (see form 990 page 9 and page 10)

Income statements are used for businessses, non profits have no need to have a profit and loss statement because they are non profit.

In an organization that uses funds based accounting, the money on the balance sheet is not fungible.   Try thinking like that while working for a government organization and you might end up in jail. 

Edited by Danzo
Link to comment

I am convinced that income earned on tithing is not tithing.

Therefore I will tell my bishop I intend to pay my tithing completely when I die. I will just keep track of what I owe in tithing using an accounting program and have those funds sent to the church upon my death. Meanwhile I will keep the profits from my tithing account for myself since it isn't tithing.

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I am convinced that income earned on tithing is not tithing.

Therefore I will tell my bishop I intend to pay my tithing completely when I die. I will just keep track of what I owe in tithing using an accounting program and have those funds sent to the church upon my death. Meanwhile I will keep the profits from my tithing account for myself since it isn't tithing.

I know people who only pay tithing once a year for a similar reason.  

My issue with withholding tithing until you die is that it annoys me when people take advantage of the 'perks' of being a part of a community without being willing to give back to that community.  And using up all the physical resources that the church provides--like buildings, temples, programs, heat, etc.--without contributing to that expense (when you otherwise would have been in a situation to do so) so that you can profit off of not contributing would be really self-centered to me (and thus, I would find that kind of a person very annoying).

But that's just me.  I'm not saying God would view it the same.

As far as the church is concerned, I don't think you would probably be considered a full tithe payer if you ended a year without being able to declare that you were.  Because being a full tithe payer requires the "paying" part to happen at some point during the two years between temple recommend interviews, but who really knows. 

Link to comment
8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Your logic is specious.

If my employer pays me for my labor, I might put a certain amount of it into my savings account. The amount I earned from my labor and put into the account is my labor-derived income, but if the bank uses it to earn investment income (which is the reason they offer the account) and then shares some of it with me, that investment share is not my labor-derived income. I didn't earn it, its source is not my labor. By the same token, the money earned by investment of tithing is not sourced from a tithe-payer, and cannot be called tithing.

If it could be called tithing, then an analogous scenario would be the case of my rich uncle investing a million dollars in my business. If I went on to earn a second million from my business operations, he could claim that that second million was part of the original avuncular investment, and therefore it belongs to him, too.  This is absurd. My uncle cannot claim that now I owe him $2 million, even if his initial million made it possible for me earn that second million. There might be a profit sharing agreement between us, in which I have to pay him back his original investment along with a portion of my profit, but otherwise he has no claim on the second million. The investment and the return on investment are not the same thing.

In saying that the money earned from investing tithing is itself tithing, you are claiming that the return on investment is the investment. That is absurd. 

Was the money earned from investing tithes paid by a tithe-payer? No it wasn't. It is, therefore, not tithing.

You are tying yourself into knots trying to fault the Church (and President Hinckley). 

Then why have the fund managers referred to the money( derived from tithing) that they invest in stocks and bonds, the widows mite?

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, ksfisher said:

If you give me $10 which I put in the bank, and at the end of the year I have $11, is the entire $11 part of your gift? 

So tithing once invested is no longer tithing? 

$10k invested in Apple stock in 1980 is now worth $4,000,000 so only $10k is tithing and the rest is not sacred funds and can be used for any commercial endeavor?

 

Edited by Fair Dinkum
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So tithing once invested is no longer tithing? 

The principle is tithing, the interest gained from it isn't.

If the investment matures (and made a profit), you still have your tithing principle, as well as extra money that wasn't in that initial tithing donation.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Then why have the fund managers referred to the money( derived from tithing) that they invest in stocks and bonds, the widows mite?

Just spitballing: The fund managers feel that some of the money they are investing is well and truly "the Widow's Mite," such that managing investment of those funds, and managing the interest/profits/ROI are, for them, an important responsibility.

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment

To me the real problem here is transparency.  If the church was up front with its members, this probably wouldn't even be a problem.  But, its hasn't been up front. The Church is not transparent.  So when a whistle blower comes out with information on 100 billion dollar stock portfolio which among other things bought a mall and bailed out Beneficial Life, some members saw this as less than full honesty.  To many the church comes across as a secretive multi-billion dollar real estate corporation. 

Hinkley said no tithing money was used to buy the mall.  My mother believed this.  She defended the decision.  Then when the whistle blower info came out, she was devastated. Her 87 year old TBM brain did not make a distinction between original tithing donations and interest from tithing. If such a difference really exists or not, we really don't know. Who's to say that how much of that 100 billion stock portfolio is tithing money or hot.

Edited by sunstoned
Link to comment
On 8/31/2021 at 3:09 PM, sunstoned said:

bought

Bought the buildings, and heavily renovated.

On 8/31/2021 at 3:09 PM, sunstoned said:

bailed out

ensured their own company could pay out their policies

 

On 8/31/2021 at 3:09 PM, sunstoned said:

Who's to say that how much of that 100 billion stock portfolio is tithing money or hot.

Well you can look at the SEC reports to see which shares were owned in recent quarters. If the price of an individual share went up from one quarter to the next, it doesn't magically mean that more tithing was given to the church.

Edited by JustAnAustralian
Link to comment
12 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Then why have the fund managers referred to the money( derived from tithing) that they invest in stocks and bonds, the widows mite?

Beats me. And is that your argument?

I named my cat Sir Thomas More. Can you derive a theory from that?

Non sequitur much?

Edited by Stargazer
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...