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What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church


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2 hours ago, Chum said:

I've never known anyone excommunicated for adultery nor has anyone I know ever mentioned they heard of it.

I have twice, one a good friend, but one was a former bishop and a YW leader and the other was a bishop who had an affair with a single woman he was counseling. 
 

These were over twenty years ago, 30 for the second. 

Edited by Calm
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55 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

As I tried to hint, though, prayer and inspiration seem rather unreliable on this issue. There are a lot of people claiming that they have prayed about LGBT issues and felt inspired by God to believe/do something quite different from what our prophets and apostles are telling us. When I need to choose, should I choose to follow what I think God is trying to tell me, or should I choose to follow the prophets against my personal inspiration?

I agree that the Church won't budge without direct revelation. One reaction I had to the "If, no" part of your comment looks like this. As starkly as a reversal on this issue would shine the spotlight on prophetic fallibility, is the Church even able to receive such a revelation? Whether SSM is a sin or not, maybe the Church CANNOT receive such a revelation because it doesn't have the stomach to deal with prophetic fallibility.

I do not accept that fear of prophetic fallibility is a barrier for Church leaders to overcome in seeking revelation, or speaking out on (as with their recent urging to vaccinate, etc.) on any topic. Such fear (or other bias) typically manifests as denial or avoidance of the topic, and a stronger barrier would be a lack of awareness of the topic. But Church leaders have been quite deliberate and forthright in addressing LGBTQ issues. Their fallibility, according to the complaints, is over how they express themselves, manage situations and roll out decisions and policies.

I might add that fear of prophetic fallibility is at the root of individuals receiving contrary revelation: if someone wants something bad enough, and feels that fallibility prevents Church leaders from agreeing to it, they may well receive what they deem to be revelation. I would never tell someone to not believe or act on such personal revelation. They are fallible too, but I still have confidence that as they move forward in good faith, the Lord will steer them along the right path. It would be nice for them to extend the same confidence to our leaders.

On the whole, what can we do but follow our net personal inspiration? This gets to how someone within the covenant community of saints behaves and acts when they receive such precious personal revelation that contradicts the prophets. This does not render their prayer and inspiration unreliable; it just renders them fallible.

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5 hours ago, smac97 said:

A fair question.  I think we know what Dan Reynolds wants the Church to do, per the above article: The church's "platitudes are empty words" until and unless it changes its doctrine to accommodate gay marriage and homosexual sex.

I'm just curious how widespread his expecation/demand is amongst those criticizing the Church.  I look forward to reading responses.

Thanks,

I don't expect the church to change its position on marriage and homosexual marriage.  There is way to much doctrine tied to heterosexual  marriage-eternal marriage, eternal procreation, eternal plural marriage.  Just does not work.  The church could stop kicking out gay couple who marry. Or who live together without marriage. How often to they kick out heterosexual couples living together outside of marriage these days?  They could allow then to be in full fellowship.  Just not do a temple marriage.  Not sure how that could  work without major doctrinal changes.  But hey they did away with polygamy which used to be required for exaltation and they did away with the priesthood ban. Stranger things have happened.  But I don't see it.

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16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't expect the church to change its position on marriage and homosexual marriage. 

I'm glad to hear that.  Truly.  It's clarifying.

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There is way to much doctrine tied to heterosexual  marriage-eternal marriage, eternal procreation, eternal plural marriage.  Just does not work. 

Agreed.

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The church could stop kicking out gay couple who marry. 

Is this happening?

Also, what are your thoughts about the Church's practice of excommunicating members who enter into polygamy?  Do you think the Church should stop that, too?

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Or who live together without marriage. 

Is this happening?

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How often to they kick out heterosexual couples living together outside of marriage these days? 

I don't think that happens.

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

They could allow then to be in full fellowship. 

Could you explain this?  How can they be in full fellowship while violating the Law of Chastity?

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Just not do a temple marriage.  Not sure how that could  work without major doctrinal changes. 

So you are expecting a change in doctrine after all?  

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But hey they did away with polygamy

Via revelation, yes.

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

which used to be required for exaltation

Well, no.

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

and they did away with the priesthood ban.

Via revelation, yes.  And it lacked any revelatory provenance to begin with, so...

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Stranger things have happened.  But I don't see it.

I don't see full fellowship happening for people who are violating the Law of Chastity.

Thanks,

-Smac

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But one could also argue if you are consciously choosing to continue in an action then that's basically the same thing as open rebellion.

A single impulsive act does not a rebellion make. Or something.

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That's probably a more positive way of phrasing things.  But it's true.  Mindset matters more than actions when it comes to repentance.

But one could also argue if you are consciously choosing to continue in an action then that's basically the same thing as open rebellion.

Rebellion against what, or who?  We're all in a state of open rebellion every minute of every day.  Either rebelling against God or rebelling against Satan and his evil empire.

Don't forget that we Americans rebelled against Britain when we declared our independence from them, at least those of us who had ancestors who did.  Star Wars rebels are some of my favorite fictional rebels.

Lessons from the Rebel Alliance on the 40th Anniversary of Star Wars | by  Chris Crass | Medium

 

 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

I have twice, one a good friend, but one was a former bishop and a YW leader and the other was a bishop who had an affair with a single woman he was counseling. 
 

These were over twenty years ago, 30 for the second. 

I know several in the past 5 years.  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I am going to try and answer your question as sincerely as I possibly can.  I first want to say, that I don't speak for the LGBT community.  There is no consensus on ANYTHING in that community.  We all come from different places and have different views and experiences on most issues.  But I am a member of that community, and I have been a member of the Church since birth and most of my adult life. I make these comments solely for the purpose of those that REALLY want to understand how a lot of gay people feel about the Church.  I am just one voice.

I don't think I need to rehash all of the things the Church has done against the LGBT community.  But compounded together, there is a lot of resentment against the Mormon Church in our community.  It seems to be periodically exacerbated on a regular basis.  Bluebell is right.  It is like tender skin that has been badly burnt.  Just when it starts to heal, there is another perceived attack.  But honestly, the vast majority of the LGBT community has written off the Mormon church and couldn't care less what it does.  Members and former members are much more sensitive to what the Church does and how it treats LGBT people.  When these firestorms routinely show up, most just roll their eyes and say "what do you expect from the Mormon Church?"

With that in mind, I want to be clear that I am not trying to dictate what the Church needs to do.  But I do have some answers to your question.

I personally don't believe that the Church is ever going to allow temple gay marriages.  I might be wrong, but I am highly doubtful.  So lets talk about what the Church could possibly do.

How about treat gay members just like straight members.  Allow them to attend BYU.  Let them hold hands, kiss, hug and yeah go on dates.  (Nothing immoral about that). Prohibit sex outside of marriage, but treat all students and faculty with the same measuring rod. 

If a gay person has sex, (either inside or outside of marriage)  treat them the same as a straight person.  Have some consistency.  My ex sister in law had an affair for over a year.  Nothing happened to her.  She is still a member in good standing.  I can think of numerous youth and many other married people who were not excommunicated for having sex outside of marriage.  

There is NOTHING immoral or wrong about coming out as gay.  If it is ok to talk about your wife or husband or boyfriend in Church or at BYU, then a person should be allowed to announce they are gaay.  Especially if that person is not having sex outside of marriage to someone of the opposite sex. Don't assume just because someone says they are gay that they are having sex.  You wouldn't assume a straight person was having sex just because they want to marry someday. Attacking that person just because they are gay is wrong and makes us feel like there is no acceptance over an issue we have no control over.

Allow us to live our own lives.  Let GOD judge us and worry about our sins unless the Church is willing to kick out every single member that is or has committed an immoral act.  We always feel like we have a target on our backs just because we are gay.  The Church does not have to accept or approve our our marriage. But don't attack our relationship unless they are willing to attack every single other relationship.

There should never be an LGBT policy.  There should be one policy for all members.  No need to single out someone who is gay.

NONE of this requires a change in doctrine.  If the Church wants to continue its belief that gay marriage is not approved of by God then fine.  But like other situations the Church finds itself in (like women marrying more than one man), let God sort it out.  Perhaps the most important mission of the Church is to lead people to God.  Teach the commandments.  Set good examples.  But in the end, each person has to find their own way back to God.  

There is no question that this issue is causing many members a lot of stress and feelings of animosity towards the Church.  I believe it is because they see a double standard in the Church.  They can clearly see that the Church has targeted the LGBT community in ways that are completely unnecessary.  As long as the Church continues on this path, more will feel like it is a Church they can not support. To many, it doesn't feel like it is the way Christ taught us how to treat sinners..  The Church really needs to figure out what it can allow and what it can't.  It would be helpful if they looked at this issues of morality in a more universally applied way instead of having two separate standards.  Just think if Elder Holland had addressed his comments more towards the entire student body rather than targeting the valedictorian gay speaker.   What he and the Church seem most upset with is the student body wanting the LGBT community to have a voice at BYU.  Can the Church not see why so many at BYU feel that the LGBT community needs to feel like they are just as much a part of the student body as anyone else?

And NO, I don't want a sentence by sentence dissection argument of everything I am writing.  I am telling you about how the LGBT community and I feel about things). Just listen.  You may agree or not.  But the question has been asked.  I have answered the OP's question the best way I know how.  I do not intend to DEFEND any of my statements.  I am however more than happy to clarify any point I have brought up.

This!

Also, this came out in the SLTribune from Matt Easton: 

During your speech, you mentioned your disapproval over certain events at the university, including a “student commandeer[ing] a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas in order to announce his personal sexual orientation.”

While you didn’t name me specifically, I am the only BYU valedictorian to come out as gay during commencement, so I think it’s safe to say you were referring to me.

You mentioned your heartache at receiving discouraging letters from members who feel confused and betrayed by BYU faculty showing support for LGBTQ+ students. I understand the pain that comes from knowing people are hurting, although I am glad to hear that you “don’t get many of those letters.”

I, too, have received many letters and messages, though I am not fortunate enough to say they are few and far between.

Within days of giving my 2019 graduation speech, I received hundreds of letters and private messages from members across the globe who were feeling lost and afraid.

One came from a young gay student at BYU-Idaho. I was the first person he ever came out to; he was terrified of his roommates finding out about his sexual orientation and facing possible retaliation, ridicule, and even violence from them.

Another was penned by a faithful member in Peru, a woman struggling deeply with her sexuality and faith, who expressed hope for the first time in seeing that it might be possible to embrace both a belief in God and an acceptance of self.

This past Monday, I experienced another flood of messages. Within an hour of your remarks, three current BYU students expressed to me how unsafe and scared they felt knowing that church leaders instructed the university’s faculty to use metaphorical “musket fire” to defend the “doctrine of the family” and push back against LGBTQ+ inclusion.

I don’t personally know most of the people who have reached out to me, but I do know what it feels like to be in their shoes.

During my freshman year, the first openly gay person I met was a boy in my class named Harry Fisher. He was in his final semester when he opened up about his sexuality. Within weeks of doing so, he took his own life.

As an impressionable young student, I felt like I was witnessing the only future I would ever have. I felt so alone and fearful of how my community would react if I ever followed suit and shared that I was gay. It’s hard to reconcile feeling like the only place for you in the world is one in which you no longer exist.

Harry is just one of thousands of LGBTQ+ individuals struggling with acceptance of their sexual identity. According to a 2021 survey by the Trevor Project, 42% of LGBTQ+ youth have contemplated suicide in the last twelve months. In Utah, approximately half of all LGBTQ+ teens experience suicidal ideation, with self-harm leading as the number one cause for death among ages 10-17. This is an issue affecting all parts of our community both in and outside of BYU.

I chose to acknowledge my sexual orientation in my graduation speech because I wanted other LGBTQ+ students to know they are not alone. That they can succeed, and can be proud of who they are while doing it.

My sexuality is not antithetical to my divine identity — in fact, it is an essential characteristic of it. Would you hold the same fear of students “push[ing] individual license over institutional dignity” if a valedictorian shared information about his or her heterosexuality? Unfortunately, I am hesitant to believe that acknowledging someone as a straight son or daughter of God would garner the same chastisement, even though it is the same principle.

Our variety of life experiences is what makes BYU so wonderful. Let me be clear — diversity is not the same as divisiveness. I imagine that is what the administrators who pre-approved my words understood as well.

While some might fear a future where more valedictorians share things like their sexual identity in their speeches, I think we should instead fear a future in which they don’t.

Celebrating our own differences not only fosters belonging but also enables us to more clearly see our similarities. If unity is what we are after, I believe it will come from offering all perspectives a seat at the table. Every voice is needed for the gospel choir.

In good faith,

Matt Easton

Matt Easton is the 2019 Brigham Young University valedictorian who came out as gay. He lives in Berkeley, California, where he is pursuing his Ph.D. in political science.

By Matt Easton | Special to The Tribune

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3 hours ago, california boy said:

I am going to try and answer your question as sincerely as I possibly can.  I first want to say, that I don't speak for the LGBT community.  There is no consensus on ANYTHING in that community.  We all come from different places and have different views and experiences on most issues.  But I am a member of that community, and I have been a member of the Church since birth and most of my adult life. I make these comments solely for the purpose of those that REALLY want to understand how a lot of gay people feel about the Church.  I am just one voice.

I don't think I need to rehash all of the things the Church has done against the LGBT community.  But compounded together, there is a lot of resentment against the Mormon Church in our community.  It seems to be periodically exacerbated on a regular basis.  Bluebell is right.  It is like tender skin that has been badly burnt.  Just when it starts to heal, there is another perceived attack.  But honestly, the vast majority of the LGBT community has written off the Mormon church and couldn't care less what it does.  Members and former members are much more sensitive to what the Church does and how it treats LGBT people.  When these firestorms routinely show up, most just roll their eyes and say "what do you expect from the Mormon Church?"

With that in mind, I want to be clear that I am not trying to dictate what the Church needs to do.  But I do have some answers to your question.

I personally don't believe that the Church is ever going to allow temple gay marriages.  I might be wrong, but I am highly doubtful.  So lets talk about what the Church could possibly do.

How about treat gay members just like straight members.  Allow them to attend BYU.  Let them hold hands, kiss, hug and yeah go on dates.  (Nothing immoral about that). Prohibit sex outside of marriage, but treat all students and faculty with the same measuring rod. 

If a gay person has sex, (either inside or outside of marriage)  treat them the same as a straight person.  Have some consistency.  My ex sister in law had an affair for over a year.  Nothing happened to her.  She is still a member in good standing.  I can think of numerous youth and many other married people who were not excommunicated for having sex outside of marriage.  

There is NOTHING immoral or wrong about coming out as gay.  If it is ok to talk about your wife or husband or boyfriend in Church or at BYU, then a person should be allowed to announce they are gaay.  Especially if that person is not having sex outside of marriage to someone of the opposite sex. Don't assume just because someone says they are gay that they are having sex.  You wouldn't assume a straight person was having sex just because they want to marry someday. Attacking that person just because they are gay is wrong and makes us feel like there is no acceptance over an issue we have no control over.

Allow us to live our own lives.  Let GOD judge us and worry about our sins unless the Church is willing to kick out every single member that is or has committed an immoral act.  We always feel like we have a target on our backs just because we are gay.  The Church does not have to accept or approve our our marriage. But don't attack our relationship unless they are willing to attack every single other relationship.

There should never be an LGBT policy.  There should be one policy for all members.  No need to single out someone who is gay.

NONE of this requires a change in doctrine.  If the Church wants to continue its belief that gay marriage is not approved of by God then fine.  But like other situations the Church finds itself in (like women marrying more than one man), let God sort it out.  Perhaps the most important mission of the Church is to lead people to God.  Teach the commandments.  Set good examples.  But in the end, each person has to find their own way back to God.  

There is no question that this issue is causing many members a lot of stress and feelings of animosity towards the Church.  I believe it is because they see a double standard in the Church.  They can clearly see that the Church has targeted the LGBT community in ways that are completely unnecessary.  As long as the Church continues on this path, more will feel like it is a Church they can not support. To many, it doesn't feel like it is the way Christ taught us how to treat sinners..  The Church really needs to figure out what it can allow and what it can't.  It would be helpful if they looked at this issues of morality in a more universally applied way instead of having two separate standards.  Just think if Elder Holland had addressed his comments more towards the entire student body rather than targeting the valedictorian gay speaker.   What he and the Church seem most upset with is the student body wanting the LGBT community to have a voice at BYU.  Can the Church not see why so many at BYU feel that the LGBT community needs to feel like they are just as much a part of the student body as anyone else?

And NO, I don't want a sentence by sentence dissection argument of everything I am writing.  I am telling you about how the LGBT community and I feel about things). Just listen.  You may agree or not.  But the question has been asked.  I have answered the OP's question the best way I know how.  I do not intend to DEFEND any of my statements.  I am however more than happy to clarify any point I have brought up.

Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. Before I even read the bolded part, I was thinking I hope this heartfelt statement doesn’t get parsed out. Thank you for continuing to engage and enlighten. 

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This!

Also, this came out in the SLTribune from Matt Easton: 

During your speech, you mentioned your disapproval over certain events at the university, including a “student commandeer[ing] a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas in order to announce his personal sexual orientation.”

While you didn’t name me specifically, I am the only BYU valedictorian to come out as gay during commencement, so I think it’s safe to say you were referring to me.

You mentioned your heartache at receiving discouraging letters from members who feel confused and betrayed by BYU faculty showing support for LGBTQ+ students. I understand the pain that comes from knowing people are hurting, although I am glad to hear that you “don’t get many of those letters.”

I, too, have received many letters and messages, though I am not fortunate enough to say they are few and far between.

Within days of giving my 2019 graduation speech, I received hundreds of letters and private messages from members across the globe who were feeling lost and afraid.

One came from a young gay student at BYU-Idaho. I was the first person he ever came out to; he was terrified of his roommates finding out about his sexual orientation and facing possible retaliation, ridicule, and even violence from them.

Another was penned by a faithful member in Peru, a woman struggling deeply with her sexuality and faith, who expressed hope for the first time in seeing that it might be possible to embrace both a belief in God and an acceptance of self.

This past Monday, I experienced another flood of messages. Within an hour of your remarks, three current BYU students expressed to me how unsafe and scared they felt knowing that church leaders instructed the university’s faculty to use metaphorical “musket fire” to defend the “doctrine of the family” and push back against LGBTQ+ inclusion.

I don’t personally know most of the people who have reached out to me, but I do know what it feels like to be in their shoes.

During my freshman year, the first openly gay person I met was a boy in my class named Harry Fisher. He was in his final semester when he opened up about his sexuality. Within weeks of doing so, he took his own life.

As an impressionable young student, I felt like I was witnessing the only future I would ever have. I felt so alone and fearful of how my community would react if I ever followed suit and shared that I was gay. It’s hard to reconcile feeling like the only place for you in the world is one in which you no longer exist.

Harry is just one of thousands of LGBTQ+ individuals struggling with acceptance of their sexual identity. According to a 2021 survey by the Trevor Project, 42% of LGBTQ+ youth have contemplated suicide in the last twelve months. In Utah, approximately half of all LGBTQ+ teens experience suicidal ideation, with self-harm leading as the number one cause for death among ages 10-17. This is an issue affecting all parts of our community both in and outside of BYU.

I chose to acknowledge my sexual orientation in my graduation speech because I wanted other LGBTQ+ students to know they are not alone. That they can succeed, and can be proud of who they are while doing it.

My sexuality is not antithetical to my divine identity — in fact, it is an essential characteristic of it. Would you hold the same fear of students “push[ing] individual license over institutional dignity” if a valedictorian shared information about his or her heterosexuality? Unfortunately, I am hesitant to believe that acknowledging someone as a straight son or daughter of God would garner the same chastisement, even though it is the same principle.

Our variety of life experiences is what makes BYU so wonderful. Let me be clear — diversity is not the same as divisiveness. I imagine that is what the administrators who pre-approved my words understood as well.

While some might fear a future where more valedictorians share things like their sexual identity in their speeches, I think we should instead fear a future in which they don’t.

Celebrating our own differences not only fosters belonging but also enables us to more clearly see our similarities. If unity is what we are after, I believe it will come from offering all perspectives a seat at the table. Every voice is needed for the gospel choir.

In good faith,

Matt Easton

Matt Easton is the 2019 Brigham Young University valedictorian who came out as gay. He lives in Berkeley, California, where he is pursuing his Ph.D. in political science.

By Matt Easton | Special to The Tribune

I honestly felt more sad about this part of Elder Holland's talk than the whole musket controversy.  And this is the reason why.

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18 minutes ago, california boy said:

I honestly felt more sad about this part of Elder Holland's talk than the whole musket controversy.  And this is the reason why

I left the Church due to gay marriage.  But Easton is a a selfish jerk.

He turned his opportunity to inform and uplift the entire BYU graduating class -- and their families -- into a selfish narcissistic "look at me!" moment.  People had travelled thousands of miles to attend this event.  And instead of hearing about how a BYU education has prepared graduates for the future, they got to listen to someone selfishly use a moment that was *special for everyone in attendance* into a self-centered proclamation about being gay.  Seriously, aren't these absurd public coming out events getting a little old and passe?  I know lots and lots of gay mormons.  And not one has used any type of Church meeting -- let alone BYU graduation! -- to "come out."  LIke who cares these days?  If you are gay you are gay.  I thought "coming out" went out of fashion 10 years ago.  Gay people fought a long time for equality but this twit is still acting like he's some persecuted minority.  Give me a break.  White gay men are some of the most privileged, highly-educated, and successful. 

And let's be really frank.  Easton will leave the Church within 5 years. 

Edited by Ipod Touch
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9 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I left the Church due to gay marriage.  But Easton is a a selfish jerk.

He turned his opportunity to inform and uplift the entire BYU graduating class -- and their families -- into a selfish narcissistic "look at me!" moment.  People had travelled thousands of miles to attend this event.  And instead of hearing about how a BYU education has prepared graduates for the future, they got to listen to someone selfishly use a moment that was *special for everyone in attendance* into a self-centered proclamation about being gay.  Seriously, aren't these absurd public coming out events getting a little old and passe?  I know lots and lots of gay mormons.  And not one has used any type of Church meeting -- let alone BYU graduation! -- to "come out."  LIke who cares these days?  If you are gay you are gay.  I thought "coming out" went out of fashion 10 years ago.  Gay people fought a long time for equality but this twit is still acting like he's some persecuted minority.  Give me a break.  White gay men are some of the most privileged, highly-educated, and successful. 

And let's be really frank.  Easton will leave the Church within 5 years. 

With all due respect, you have no idea how difficult and the personal repercussions that happen when a member of the Church comes out.  My family didn't talk to me or invite me to any family functions for 13 years.  Ward members who I had been close to for 15 years never talked to me again.  You think stuff like that isn't a big deal?  

You may think things have changed and now it is no big deal.  Perhaps that is true for some, but certainly not all.  I know gay members of the Church right now that are struggling to figure out the consequences of what will happen to them if they tell their families and church members.  His coming out might not have been a big deal for you.  But for thousands of others, it meant something.  And evidently it meant something to Elder Holland who 2 years after the event, decided to point the finger at that moment as an illustration of what must stop at BYU.  If it was no longer an issue, why did Elder Holland bring it up?

You also have no idea the impact an individual has on gay members of the church when someone comes out in a setting like that. You should read his speech, if you haven't already.  It was not centered around coming out.  And yes, I totally agree Easton will probably be out of the Church in 5 years.  Probably not even that long. The Church is not a good place for a gay person to be.  Giving up a life with someone you love is not a good place to be.  Just ask how many on this board are willing to give up their spouses for the Church and think that will lead to happiness.  

Edited by california boy
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6 minutes ago, california boy said:

With all due respect, you have no idea how difficult and the personal repercussions that happen when a member of the Church especially, comes out.

For folks coming out + family, I think the superpower that best fits is Not Giving The Smallest Crap What Other Members Think. I'd direct that this be taught in primary, if I were prophet for 10 minutes.

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52 minutes ago, california boy said:

With all due respect, you have no idea how difficult and the personal repercussions that happen when a member of the Church comes out.  My family didn't talk to me or invite me to any family functions for 13 years.  Ward members who I had been close to for 15 years never talked to me again.  You think stuff like that isn't a big deal?  

You may think things have changed and now it is no big deal.  Perhaps that is true for some, but certainly not all.  I know gay members of the Church right now that are struggling to figure out the consequences of what will happen to them if they tell their families and church members.  His coming out might not have been a big deal for you.  But for thousands of others, it meant something.  And evidently it meant something to Elder Holland who 2 years after the event, decided to point the finger at that moment as an illustration of what must stop at BYU.  If it was no longer an issue, why did Elder Holland bring it up?

You also have no idea the impact an individual has on gay members of the church when someone comes out in a setting like that. You should read his speech, if you haven't already.  It was not centered around coming out.  And yes, I totally agree Easton will probably be out of the Church in 5 years.  Probably not even that long. The Church is not a good place for a gay person to be.  Giving up a life with someone you love is not a good place to be.  Just ask how many on this board are willing to give up their spouses for the Church and think that will lead to happiness.  

I think things have gotten better, and thank goodness.

When David Archuleta recently came out he said that the overwhelming response he got from members was love and support.  He had come out to his parents years before and they were very supportive.

Of course not everyone will have the same experience, even now, but I think the improvement is important to mention, especially for gay youth who are afraid to come out to their families and it's affecting their mental health.  

Here is Archuleta's interview in full, and I encourage everyone, especially members to read it.  He says some really interesting things about his relationship with God and how it impacted his coming out that I think is important for every member to hear.  

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16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

I don't expect the church to change its position on marriage and homosexual marriage. 

I'm glad to hear that.  Truly.  It's clarifying.

Ok.  I am glad you are glad.  Maybe you can up vote my post. I tend to get a lot of down votes.  😏

 

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

There is way to much doctrine tied to heterosexual  marriage-eternal marriage, eternal procreation, eternal plural marriage.  Just does not work. 

Agreed.

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

The church could stop kicking out gay couple who marry. 

Is this happening?

I think so. I do not know the extent.  I had thought the gay marriage earned a mandatory membership council.  Maybe that changed with the flip flop of the Nov 2015 policy.

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

Also, what are your thoughts about the Church's practice of excommunicating members who enter into polygamy?  Do you think the Church should stop that, too?

Not so long as the ex those who enter into it for eternity like President Oaks and Nelson.  😁  Just kidding.  Personally I don't believe in excommunication.  But I get that this can cause a conundrum based on your question above.

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Or who live together without marriage. 

Is this happening?

II don't know.  Possibly.  DO you think it is not?

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

How often to they kick out heterosexual couples living together outside of marriage these days? 

I don't think that happens.

Yes that is my point.

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

They could allow then to be in full fellowship. 

Could you explain this?  How can they be in full fellowship while violating the Law of Chastity?

 

Full fellowship means they can attend, participate, pray, take the sacrament, be allowed to be with their partner and not ostracized, etc.  I imagine there are a lot of member of your ward and stake that are in violation of the law of chastity to on degree or another and still are able to participate in church activity. 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Just not do a temple marriage.  Not sure how that could  work without major doctrinal changes. 

So you are expecting a change in doctrine after all?  

Would allowing those civilly married who are gay to participate be a change in doctrine?  If yes how so?

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

But hey they did away with polygamy

Via revelation, yes.

Allegedly.  Based on my study of the history around the manifesto it was not revelation what so ever.  IT was do away with it or see the church destroyed. 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

which used to be required for exaltation

Well, no.

Well yes.  According to Brigham Young.  But I guess that is just another one of those mistakes that LDS Leaders make that can later be ignored with it is no longer convenient  to believe it.

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

and they did away with the priesthood ban.

Via revelation, yes.  And it lacked any revelatory provenance to begin with, so...

Why would you need a revelation to do away with something that was never revelated?

16 hours ago, smac97 said:
17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Stranger things have happened.  But I don't see it.

I don't see full fellowship happening for people who are violating the Law of Chastity.

Thanks,

Likely true. That is why I said I don't see it.  Thus your problems with the LBGT people will continue to be a thorn in the side of the Church. Just admit that LBGT people really will have a tough time being LDS and practicing and active. If they chose to leave because they want something that the Church will kick them out for doing love and support them.  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

With all due respect, you have no idea how difficult and the personal repercussions that happen when a member of the Church comes out.

You sure about that?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

My family didn't talk to me or invite me to any family functions for 13 years.

To put it mildly, your family sound like a bunch of jerks too.  What does that have to do with the Church?  I know *many* gay LDS whose families treat them as they always have.  Sure, it is an adjustment for everyone, but don't blame your families' bad actions on the Church.  They own it.  It is 100% on them.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Ward members who I had been close to for 15 years never talked to me again.

Yep.  And some of the people who I grew up with refuse to talk to me for being exmormon.  This is a *them* problem.  Blaming the Church gets them off the hook for being jerks.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

His coming out might not have been a big deal for you.  But for thousands of others, it meant something.

And why was BYU graduation the best place to do this?  I'm sure he enjoyed the likes and retweets.  And I'm sure he's enjoying the attention from the SLT opinion piece.  

 

1 hour ago, california boy said:

You also have no idea the impact an individual has on gay members of the church when someone comes out in a setting like that.

Are you sure?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

If it was no longer an issue, why did Elder Holland bring it up?

Because the theology of the Church says that man/woman relationships are the only ones acceptable to God.  You and I may disagree with that.  But the Church has the right to define its theology and what it means.  Would it be acceptable for someone to use a Liberty University graduation to announce themselves as atheist?  Or perhaps to disavow evangelicanlism in favor of Orthodoxy?  No.  It would be profoundly inappropriate and disrespectful of the audience.  

1 hour ago, california boy said:

The Church is not a good place for a gay person to be.

No it isn't.  So instead of trying to impose our own beliefs on the Church, let's just leave the Church alone.  

I made the choice.  You made the choice.  Others can make that same choice.  It is infantile to continue to blame the Church for 1) our own hangups and 2) the bad behavior of others.

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2 hours ago, Amulek said:

This is perhaps off topic, but does anyone know if Matt Easton is still a faithfully active member of the church? 

I hope not. Most gay members realize the church has nothing for them and leave. Reference the two members of the popular byutv show studio c. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think things have gotten better, and thank goodness.

When David Archuleta recently came out he said that the overwhelming response he got from members was love and support.  He had come out to his parents years before and they were very supportive.

Of course not everyone will have the same experience, even now, but I think the improvement is important to mention, especially for gay youth who are afraid to come out to their families and it's affecting their mental health.  

Here is Archuleta's interview in full, and I encourage everyone, especially members to read it.  He says some really interesting things about his relationship with God and how it impacted his coming out that I think is important for every member to hear.  

That was a really terrific article.I would strongly encourage anyone who wants to understand this issue better to read what David has to say  I especially hope @iPod will read it as well.  

I found this part interesting and much like the experience I had as well.

Quote

 

 I'm just praying and asking, “God, if you are there and if you really have a plan for me, really, I don't want this. I don't want to go through something that you don't want for me. So, please take this far from me. Please just take it from me, so that I am not living in a way that you wouldn't want me to.”

And it was like the first time in a long time that I heard Him. And He just said, “David, you need to stop asking me this.” It was so straight-up and so clear. I was like, “What?” And He said, “I don't look at it the same way that you are looking at it. You need to stop asking me to change something that I intended for you. I created you this way, and now it's for you to understand why.” And this is not what I thought. I didn't think this is how He looked at it. I thought this is something I need to overcome and persevere through and push aside. That's what I thought were His commandments and stuff. And He was just like, “David, I don't look at it the same way as most people in church look at it. I know there are people trying to follow me and stuff, but I think it's time for you to understand better how I see it. … Perhaps you need to make what you think are mistakes.” And I was like, “Huh? What I think are mistakes?” That was very specific. So then I was like, “Well, what kind of ‘mistakes’ should I make?” I didn't want to do anything wrong. And He's like, “I don't tell you what mistakes to make. That's for you to figure out. But I give you permission to make mistakes. You're going to out and do what you thought were mistakes and aren't. And also you'll make mistakes, but it's fine, because I trust you. I trust that you'll get back up and keep moving forward. And I know you trust me, David. So, you'll figure it out.”

 

 

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Just now, california boy said:

That was a really terrific article.I would strongly encourage anyone who wants to understand this issue better to read what David has to say  I especially hope @iPod will read it as well.  

I found this part interesting and much like the experience I had as well.

 

I really loved that part too.

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12 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Here is the story of a married, gay couple who were recently excommunicated….


 

I have a lot of sympathy for the LGBT crowd.  But my sympathy for anyone wanes a bit when they start demanding sympathy.  We live in a culture that celebrates victimhood.  It’s become a commodity people use to draw attention to themselves.  It’s all very off-putting. 

Can we all just accept that the church and the LGBT community are probably never going to see eye to eye on matters of sexuality, marriage, and gender?  Can we just agree to disagree on all of this while still getting along with each other?
 

 

 


 

 

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