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What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church


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11 hours ago, Calm said:

If you don’t believe God is directing you to do so, I suppose one might need to come up with multiple reasons to sacrifice.  But in my view the only reason worth it and the only reason needed is you believe the Spirit has told you this is the path God wants you to take.  It sounds rather ridiculous to ask for 5 or 10 reasons to obey a commandment IMO, when the point of obedience is to do what God has told you to do.  Yes, Lord, I will obey if you can tell me ten reasons why I should….just doesn’t sound right.

The type of sacrifices required in turning your life over to God are often not easily understood and often may even seem counterproductive when judged without the addition of faith.

Well that is exactly the reason I am on the path that I am on.  I know and feel by the Spirit that it is what God wants of me.  

The question was more general.  I wanted to know  if TBM could come up with 5 eternal benefits for someone to make such a sacrifice.  

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

No, going back to my original response there is only one reason any of us need to make any "sacrifice" and that is that our Savior has asked to do so. He asks us to obey the commandments. You don't believe it is a commandment from God to not engage in homosexual behavior. I do. And that one belief that it is what Christ wants me to do is all that I would need.

That said, there are probably things God eventually wants of me that I am in self-denial of. Things that I would willfully disobey if I was actively asked to change. I believe that Christ in his mercy often avoids engaging us on things he knows we would disobey anyway and focuses more on the things that we might change in our current state. If we work with him on the smaller things first, we change and eventually we are brought to some of the items we initially would have disobeyed on. As such, I try to avoid judging others because they sin differently than I do.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.  I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

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You know what? I think more than anything it is the way that some members of the church stand behind their religion as a way of justifying their ugly behavior that has me questioning things.  Identifying with a religion that houses such vitriol is like being in a toxic family.  I might love the concept of family but for crying out loud sometimes I just don’t want to go to the reunion.  

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17 hours ago, california boy said:

And what does that have to say about what the Church has to even offer the LGBT community?

Probably nothing, I guess if that's what you're saying.

So then we shouldn't try?

Why are you even here then?

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1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

You know what? I think more than anything it is the way that some members of the church stand behind their religion as a way of justifying their ugly behavior that has me questioning things.  Identifying with a religion that houses such vitriol is like being in a toxic family.  I might love the concept of family but for crying out loud sometimes I just don’t want to go to the reunion.  

It is certainly true that some members (indeed all members, but this is true of humanity in general) have things they can do better. There are short-comings, sometimes severe. Nonetheless, it remains true that active members of the Church who strive to live their religion are healthier, happier, and more socially adjusted than just about every demographic. You seem to be identifying our lived theology in a way that is pretty much the opposite of what really is.

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Just now, Nofear said:

It is certainly true that some members (indeed all members, but this is true of humanity in general) have things they can do better. There are short-comings, sometimes severe. Nonetheless, it remains true that active members of the Church who strive to live their religion are healthier, happier, and more socially adjusted than just about every demographic. You seem to be identifying our lived theology in a way that is pretty much the opposite of what really is.

No I’m not.  I’m talking about comments like Gophers that are beyond offensive to me.  I love my religious lifestyle.  I’m healthy and very happy.  What I really dislike is the derogatory and distasteful commentary that Is couched In religious discussion.  I want to make it known when I hear this garbage that I do not concur. How many times have I wanted to stand up and sunday school and say “I do not believe the same way you do about other people who are different than you”.  It creates a distance in my heart from my brothers and sisters.  I find it completely unacceptable that I as well as others remain silent when vitriol is spewed as if it’s Gods will.  

 

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3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

No I’m not.  I’m talking about comments like Gophers that are beyond offensive to me.  I love my religious lifestyle.  I’m healthy and very happy.  What I really dislike is the derogatory and distasteful commentary that Is couched In religious discussion.  I want to make it known when I hear this garbage that I do not concur. How many times have I wanted to stand up and sunday school and say “I do not believe the same way you do about other people who are different than you”.  It creates a distance in my heart from my brothers and sisters.  I find it completely unacceptable that I as well as others remain silent when vitriol is spewed as if it’s Gods will.  

 

Indeed, I see such language as being condemned by the Brethren too.

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2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

No I’m not.  I’m talking about comments like Gophers that are beyond offensive to me.  I love my religious lifestyle.  I’m healthy and very happy.  What I really dislike is the derogatory and distasteful commentary that Is couched In religious discussion.  I want to make it known when I hear this garbage that I do not concur. How many times have I wanted to stand up and sunday school and say “I do not believe the same way you do about other people who are different than you”.  It creates a distance in my heart from my brothers and sisters.  I find it completely unacceptable that I as well as others remain silent when vitriol is spewed as if it’s Gods will.  

 

I relate well, a few years ago a woman in gospel doctrine class was very hateful towards those that are gay and marry in a SSM.  She spoke out in disgust about their unions. The only way I could deal I guess, is that she was disfellowshipped or something because I wasn't to call on her to give a prayer during Relief Society. So that made me feel a little better about this sister being so hateful. If she had been a member in good standing, it might have done some real damage or distanced myself as well. 

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8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm none of those things, but as a never-married, non-heterosexual male, I could fill pages with the things the Church offers that I'm simply not willing to give up. Here are some of mine:

1. As I have posted on this forum before, one Thursday morning on my way to work some years ago, I arrived at the train station, bought a ticket, got it punched, walked through the turnstile, walked about two metres, and hit a spiritual 'brick wall'. The impression was clear: Go back into the station; someone needs you.

I argued against this impression. I'd arrived at the station at that very time because the train was always super-full, and my only hope of getting into a carriage versus having to ride on the outside of it (scary!) was to be waiting on the platform in about 60 seconds. I had to get to work. The next train was 20 minutes later, and that would make me late to my first class. Etc., etc.

In short, I didn't want this impression to be revelation. I wanted it to be a random thought based on nothing, concocted by my own brain. I needed it to be unreliable. So I took another step towards the platform. 'Hamba, go back into the station; someone needs you'.

I felt completely stupid, but I turned around, walked back through the turnstile and past the attendant who had previously punched my ticket. It was my intention to quickly walk a circuit of the station, confirm that I was just being silly, buy another ticket, and still make it onto the platform before it got too crowded.

In the back corner of the train station, I came upon an 18-year-old young man who had been riding on the outside of an earlier train and hadn't leaned in far enough as the train approached the station; consequently, the calf muscle had been ripped from the back of his left leg (attached only at the ankle). With no money to pay for an ambulance, he'd been placed in the corner and covered with a flattened cardboard carton so that no one had to watch him bleed out and die.

If, confident in my own 'wisdom', I had caught the train and gone to work that morning, I would have known nothing. I also would have reduced my capacity, I believe, to receive further revelation.

Instead, I had some of the most powerful experiences of my life, including the ministration of angels and the shortest priesthood blessing I have ever given: 'By the authority of the Mechizedek Priesthood, I command you to live'. The young man breathed again, and he didn't stop breathing till I got him to hospital one hour later. That involved sitting in the back of a small police truck with him in my arms, his blood having soaked through to my skin. A doctor at the hospital later told me that he had never seen anyone with so little blood in his system who was alive, but this boy was, and he experienced no organ failure of any kind.

 

2. As I have also posted about before, six years ago, I was facing deportation. I had done literally everything I could to qualify for permanent residence, to no avail. I took this unresolvable burden to the temple and prayed with earnestness throughout the session. In answer to which, I heard distinctly and clearly, 'Hamba, prepare yourself for what I have planned'. Immediately I was filled with peace and the almost 'pulsing' assurance that God had this one figured out. That peace stayed with me throughout the end of 2015 and well into 2016, but by the end of February, I started worrying again. Where was this plan that God had said he had? Had He really spoken to me? I was five weeks away from complete disaster.

Off to the temple I went with my ward. Again, I prayed like mad. Nothing. Silence. The next day, I was travelling home by myself and took the opportunity to vent. 'Where art Thou?' I asked with a mix of desperation and rising resentment. I prayed for more than an hour as I travelled. 'Where wast Thou when I was in Thy house last night?'

And then the voice again, this time returning question with question: 'Hamba, do you really have faith in Me?'

'Thou knowest I do!' I asserted angrily, trembling with indignation. Then immediately came into my mind all of my fears and worries and doubts. So I spoke aloud again, this time with a different attitude: 'Lord, I believe ... help Thou mine unbelief'. And again perfect peace. I still had no clue what was planned, but I spent the next few weeks consciously forcing myself not to fear, not to worry, not to shrink.

My Bishop's wife asked me what I was going to do. I told her, 'Nothing'. 'So you've given up then?' 'No'. 'So what are you going to do?' "I've done all I can; now I'm going to be still and wait for the arm of the Lord to be revealed'.

And then the miracle. Miracles upon miracles. Literally 36 hours before I was required to leave the country, everything had fallen into place (including a change to the list of occupations that qualified for sponsorship), and I had an invitation from Immigration to apply for permanent residence. Looking back, it had all been perfectly planned. A half-dozen threads all came together at the very last moment and in the only possible way.

 

3. I also posted about an experience I had almost exactly four years ago. I had taken a last-minute trip to the temple, and consequently I felt ill-prepared for it, but I was happy to be in the House of the Lord. I hadn't arrived with any questions, worries, or pressing issues, so instead of praying, as I often do throughout the session, I just sat back and enjoyed the beauty of the experience. I did know in the back of my mind that when I finally got home later that day, I would need to prepare a talk for sacrament meeting, but I wasn't too worried about that. Since my bishop had assigned me, I'd thought long and hard about what to say, and I had a rough outline and some good content already in my head.

And then something happened. I don't actually know how to describe it, but as I sat in the endowment room, a sermon started to 'scroll' through my mind. It came in bits and pieces at first -- 'line upon line' -- until it was complete, but from that point it just looped over and over again, including throughout the next endowment session. By the time I'd finished both sessions, I had the words and ideas pretty much memorised. It was not the talk I'd partially outlined in my previous thoughts at all, and in fact it was incredibly bold, I thought. At one point I actually said, in my mind, I can't say those things; people will be offended. Then a quiet answer: Hamba, be bold.

I didn't know quite why this 'intervention' happened. I hadn't been seeking help in any way, but it left me feeling empowered and at peace.

In the end, I had no chance of preparing the talk I had partially planned, and I suspect the Lord was at least partially motivated by His foreknowledge of that fact. Whilst I was in the temple, somebody smashed through the back door of our house and proceeded to ransack the bedrooms, taking a number of valuable items. I got home from the temple a little before 8pm, and it was nearly 3am before everything was sorted, and I was able to lie down to sleep. In the few seconds before I was unconscious, I found myself thinking how glad I was that a ready-made talk had already been 'handed' to me. (No doubt the Spirit could have guided my preparation to give the talk the Lord wanted, but there literally wasn't any time for that process to occur.)

I got up four hours later and was able to speak for 30 minutes without a single written note. I merely gave the sermon that had been thoroughly impressed upon me in the temple.

How grateful I am to have access to both revelation and a place where the revelation flows!

 

4. I went to the temple one Saturday evening when I was studying as an undergraduate in America. It was nearly 9pm when I left the Celestial Room, and I was the sole man in the changeroom. A worker found me just as I'd got my pants off and asked if I could serve as a witness for a sealing. I said sure and proceeded to put my pants back on. In the sealing room upstairs, I was introduced to a young couple from interstate. Recent converts, they had left their home very early that morning and driven to the temple, where they had completed the baptisms and confirmations for her grandparents, received their endowments, been sealed together, and then completed endowments for her grandparents. Their final goal before leaving the temple and making the five-hour drive home was to be sealed on behalf of the grandparents. Another witness was located, and the ceremony began.

I literally lack the language necessary to explain what happened during and after that ordinance, but I will never forget it. I'm not certain we were still in the temple. Time seemed to have ceased. I remember thinking that I would be happy for all of eternity to just exist in that moment. Once the amens were said, no one moved. No one spoke. The only sound I remember was the gentle sound of tears landing on the altar cloth. How long we knelt/sat there is impossible to know. We were not alone, but the number of people with us was uncountable. Eventually the sealer whispered, 'Brothers and sisters, I am so sorry to interrupt this, but the temple has closed, and we must leave'. Then: 'It is not often that one receives such a clear witness that two people have accepted an ordinance'.

As we walked down to the changeroom, the temple was indeed closed. The 8:00 session had ended, lights were off, everyone had gone home and left us in the sealing room. I will never forget that experience, nor the nearly identical one I had with my sister some years later.

 

That is just some of the things the Church offers me. I could certainly keep going ... probably for weeks, maybe months.

And for me, such things are worth every 'sacrifice' I have ever made to have access to them. I've had multiple opportunities in my life to put companionship ahead of enjoying the blessings of being in full fellowship in the Church, and I'll be honest that I've been tempted! But in the end never tempted enough.

As a 21-year-old missionary, I invited a woman with a de facto partner and a young son to be baptised knowing full well that her decision would require marriage or separation. She and her partner had been together for seven years, but he had always refused to marry her, and she was afraid he would continue to refuse. I shared her fear ... and rightly so. In fact, his response was to pack and move out of the house. It left her devastated. It left me devastated on her behalf. But she went through with it.

Later, when she shared with some sisters in the ward that her patriarchal blessing promised her a husband someday, they cynically and thoughtlessly told her that that would be in the next life. She was so hurt by this because she had already determined that a) she almost certainly would never marry in this life and b) she would be faithful till the end anyway. We remain in contact, and she has repeatedly expressed to me her gratitude for all the blessings and miracles that her decision to be baptised has brought into her life. (If she were on this forum, maybe she could respond too!)

The Law of Chastity asks very hard things of many members. The majority of adults in the Church aren't married, as was noted in the last General Conference. For people like me and my friend, the promise in Matthew 19:29 is not just words: 'And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life'.

I get why people would rather believe in a version of Jesus that didn't ever say such things. Ex-Mormon forums are filled with people revelling in no longer having to give up anything they want. I get it. But it's not in any way consistent with the Christian message ... or with the plan for our exaltation.

Finally, I predict that someone will try to argue that what I've just shared is somehow not unique to the Church, but that has not been my experience at all! Regardless, I have intentionally tried to select some experiences that are pretty clearly tied to unique aspects of being a fully active member of the Church.

Thank you for sharing some real faith experiences.  I believe those kinds of experiences are open to all of us.  I had many like this when I was a member.  I continue to have them in my life.  I remember about a month ago, riding my bike through the streets of San Francisco.  Something I do pretty regularly. There are spots where the homeless are on the streets.  Over the years I have noticed that about a third of them are drug addicts and pretty much out of it.  About a third of them have real mental problems.  They are no longer cared for in state institutions, but instead have just been turned out on the streets.  And about a third of them are down on their luck financially or have just given up on having a more normal life.  This has been born out with data as well.

On my bike ride, there was a woman in the center of the street, kinda freaking out.  My first though was that she was a drug addict high on something or maybe mentally ill.  Both groups can show eratic behavior and most of the time at some point they make it to the side walk.  But this time, something prompted me to go to her.  Turns out she was much older than I first thought.  Instead of having mental or drug issues, she was having a medical issue.  I walked her to the curb.  Asked a person near by to please call for an ambulance while I stayed with her.

We can all experiences promptings from the Spirit despite some who believe that they have to be members of the Church.  And when these kinds of things happen to me, there is a reassurance that I am on the path that God wants me to be on.  While others may disagree, my heart is actually more at peace with God than it ever was when I was struggling to fit into the Church mold.  It has made me a firm believer in the idea that there are many paths back to God.  And our relationship with him is not determined by a membership in any church, but rather being open to His promptings.

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4 hours ago, gopher said:

Since you were once a member, you already know the reasons why we strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  If that's not enough, I'm not sure what I can add.  It's comforting to know a loving Heavenly Father wants all of us to be in the Celestial Kingdom, no matter who we are or even what sins we've committed in the past.  That's reason enough.  But He does ask we keep his commandments, even those that we feel aren't fair or go against what we believe is our natural behavior.  It's not easy, but what distinguishes true followers is they believe ANY sacrifice is worth it for exaltation.

Well that is the thing.  I know why those that are straight strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  The idea of being eternally married to the person you love the most and growing to become like God is pretty enticing.  What I haven't figured out is why a person who is attracted to the same sex should strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  

4 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm not asking you to give up the person you love the most.  Through His prophets, God has issued commandments against having intimate connections with another man (I'm assuming you are referring to icky gay sex stuff there).  I'm doubtful we'll be able to stand before the judgement seat and convince God that He asked too much of us in return for exaltation. 

Icky gay sex stuff as you put it is NOT what I am talking about.  I know this might surprise you, but probably the least important thing about my relationship with my partner is sex.  I would think the vast majority of people who have been with their partners for any significant amount of time would say the same thing.  

4 hours ago, gopher said:

So the question really goes back to you:  are you willing to make every sacrifice necessary for exaltation?  It's the same question we all have to ask ourselves, often over and over again as we go throughout life.  Fortunately, many have testified they have received reassurances from the Holy Ghost that it is worth it so hopefully that can give hope to others.

What do you think exaltation for someone who is only attracted to the same sex look like to you?  I personally have no idea.  What the Church teaches doesn't really look like something I would even want if I did die having given up all intimate relationships with my partner and a faithful member of the church. Just what is at the end of the tunnel for me?

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4 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I appreciate your words and recognize that there is confusion around the doctrine of eternity and the Plan of Happiness as taught by the leaders of the Church. There are clear answers we don't readily have.

For me it came down to finding the right person who would be willing to partner with me in putting the Lord first in our lives. I've always felt that love is nurtured and cultivated, and it was something that grew between us (we were seeking it and also made plenty of room for it).

I believe that the Lord has the ability to keep His promises and enable every seeker to have all that He offers. I still don't know what eternity looks like for the person who cannot, through no fault on their part, receive traditional marriage and have it sealed in the Temple, but if I know anything it's that He is faithful and that we can choose to trust Him.

What I do know, at least from my own searching, is that when we get to the Resurrection we will all become refined and new creatures to the degree that we allow Him to purify us in the time leading up to it. I believe that our feelings which have a root in both the physical body (hormones, genetics, etc...), as well as the mind and spirit, can be sanctified and perfected in Christ.

Before I met my lady and we decided to pair off I was very alone for ten years with no prospects or hopes for anything but the celibate life. I'd say that my first intimacy, ironically, has been how hopeless and crushing that isolation can be. I'd decided to be celibate because I couldn't "unknow" how merciful the Lord had been in helping me find Him. Ten years of stumbling, falling, rising, and still stumbling have given me a perfect knowledge that there is no happiness for me outside the Gospel.

It wasn't until I focused on anchoring the Savior as the center of my life that I discovered something I didn't expect to love and need so much: the covenants I made in the Temple wherein I took His name upon me became the beginnings of an intimate covenant relationship.

For me then the ongoing journey to become more one with the Savior, and worshipping in His Temple, has given me an intimate relationship with Him where temporal loneliness isn't the same anymore. How can I feel alone when I have Someone who not only knows me so well, but is doggedly insistent on saving and perfecting me? 

My answer then to the seeker who is considering the celibate life: it's not about simply being chaste through your decision to abstain. It's about coming to your Savior and making the covenant relationship He offers you of more value than anything society, the world, or earthly life can offer, and holding fiercely to Him. Then if it is His will He will lead you where you're meant to be. You must be firmly grounded in Him or else the celibate and faithful life will be so very difficult.

Only when His approval, and eventually His personal presence, means more to you than anything else will the sting of your Abrahamic sacrifice be swallowed up in Christ.

I truly wish you the very best and hope you find real happiness in your marriage.  

I tried doing the very thing you are embarking on.  I was married for over 20 years to someone who has always and still is a friend.  For me, that relationship always seemed fake.  It was a relationship based solely on the promises made by Church leaders that I would eventually become straight. Probably the wrong thing to build a marriage on.  And I just felt like I was constantly lying to people who always assumed that I was straight.  They would tell me how much they loved me. But in my heart, I always wondered if they knew I was gay, would they still love me.  So I could never really trust anyone's love.  For me,  that falseness became too big of burden to carry.  I hope you have better luck.

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21 minutes ago, california boy said:

Thank you for sharing some real faith experiences.  I believe those kinds of experiences are open to all of us.  I had many like this when I was a member.  I continue to have them in my life.  I remember about a month ago, riding my bike through the streets of San Francisco.  Something I do pretty regularly. There are spots where the homeless are on the streets.  Over the years I have noticed that about a third of them are drug addicts and pretty much out of it.  About a third of them have real mental problems.  They are no longer cared for in state institutions, but instead have just been turned out on the streets.  And about a third of them are down on their luck financially or have just given up on having a more normal life.  This has been born out with data as well.

On my bike ride, there was a woman in the center of the street, kinda freaking out.  My first though was that she was a drug addict high on something or maybe mentally ill.  Both groups can show eratic behavior and most of the time at some point they make it to the side walk.  But this time, something prompted me to go to her.  Turns out she was much older than I first thought.  Instead of having mental or drug issues, she was having a medical issue.  I walked her to the curb.  Asked a person near by to please call for an ambulance while I stayed with her.

We can all experiences promptings from the Spirit despite some who believe that they have to be members of the Church.  And when these kinds of things happen to me, there is a reassurance that I am on the path that God wants me to be on.  While others may disagree, my heart is actually more at peace with God than it ever was when I was struggling to fit into the Church mold.  It has made me a firm believer in the idea that there are many paths back to God.  And our relationship with him is not determined by a membership in any church, but rather being open to His promptings.

But as he pointed out, he exercised the priesthood from the Church to miraculously save a mortal life. Do you have a comparable personal experience without the / a Church? Let's have some apples-to-apples comparisons to be fair in concluding that you can have the same blessings without the Church.

56 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well that is exactly the reason I am on the path that I am on.  I know and feel by the Spirit that it is what God wants of me.  

The question was more general.  I wanted to know  if TBM could come up with 5 eternal benefits for someone to make such a sacrifice.  

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.  I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

To be fair (and efficient), there only needs to be one compelling reason, not 5 justifications.

 

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

I truly wish you the very best and hope you find real happiness in your marriage.  

I tried doing the very thing you are embarking on.  I was married for over 20 years to someone who has always and still is a friend.  For me, that relationship always seemed fake.  It was a relationship based solely on the promises made by Church leaders that I would eventually become straight. Probably the wrong thing to build a marriage on.  And I just felt like I was constantly lying to people who always assumed that I was straight.  They would tell me how much they loved me. But in my heart, I always wondered if they knew I was gay, would they still love me.  So I could never really trust anyone's love.  For me,  that falseness became too big of burden to carry.  I hope you have better luck.

I can see a significant difference between what he and you are describing and basing your decisions on.

Edited by CV75
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2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Humba Tuhan gave a much more elaborate list than I will. I just want to respond as succinctly as I can to your question to me.  Now that you have agreed to the supposition that you really did believe, here are some reasons. 
 

1. Knowing God is pleased with you. 
2.  Knowing you are headed towards exaltation. 
3.  Knowing that you qualify for blessings that are predicated upon obedience you would otherwise miss out on.  
4. receiving those blessings. 
5.  Knowing that if the loved ones you ‘leave’ (and you don’t have to leave their lives) will receive similar blessings if they also choose to follow Gods commandments. 
6. Knowing you are an example to others to lead them to Exaltation as well. 
7. Having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 
8.  Being able to attend the temple for personal succor and revelation. 
 

There’s 8 I came up with without even having to work very hard.  Now - protestation to this list based on doubt rather than belief will render this list moot. 
 

I am in no way insinuating that this would make that decision easy at. I can’t imagine how hard it would be.  Especially if you already have an established same sex marriage and children.  

also, as some have said, I think people put too much focus on sex - without getting too far into the weeds, there are plenty of hetero marriages that are missing a sexual component/attraction for one reason or another that still stay together in love and faith, raise great families, and live a measure of fulfillment and joy knowing they are choosing righteousness over looking for the missing sexual fulfillment. 

Thanks for sharing you perspective.  I think all of those reasons are good reasons for you to be a member of the Church.

Ironically, I don't really think I am giving up any of those blessings.  I do feel that God is pleased with the path that i am on.  I know this might sound weird to you, but I still feel the Spirit in my life and feel promptings from him.  Is it every moment of the day? No.  But there is that constant feeling of having a relationship with God.  And I also believe that the biggest blessing I have ever received is my partner that I am sharing my life with.  

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11 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well that is the thing.  I know why those that are straight strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  The idea of being eternally married to the person you love the most and growing to become like God is pretty enticing.  What I haven't figured out is why a person who is attracted to the same sex should strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  

Icky gay sex stuff as you put it is NOT what I am talking about.  I know this might surprise you, but probably the least important thing about my relationship with my partner is sex.  I would think the vast majority of people who have been with their partners for any significant amount of time would say the same thing.  

What do you think exaltation for someone who is only attracted to the same sex look like to you?  I personally have no idea.  What the Church teaches doesn't really look like something I would even want if I did die having given up all intimate relationships with my partner and a faithful member of the church. Just what is at the end of the tunnel for me?

Thanks for clarifying and sorry for the flippant comment in a lame attempt to be edgy.  I don't know what non-sexual behavior is acceptable to God for same sex couples.  No one knows exactly what exaltation looks like but still hold out hope that it's worth it.

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I think what makes it okay, for me, is the transcendent assurance that I'm not alone because He is all I need. It's not some constant spiritual high that helps me put off everything because we will always have highs and lows. However even if I weren't on my current path I would be okay with just the hope He gives me for eternity. Communing with Him daily, hourly, and more often when needed gives me strength to stay on the path.

 

It's okay for me to not know what He has in store because He's never failed me yet, and He won't start now. How else can I respond when He visits me with a real, yet also otherworldly assurance that this is His will for me? I can only keep trusting Him.

 

This is why I feel it's so vital for others who may be in a similar place as I've been (and wonder where they fit) to put Him first, seek His voice often, and let the Spirit guide them as they make and keep sacred covenants.

 

If He tells them to remain single because they aren't in a position to receive the blessings in this life then He *will* make it possible. If He invites them to marry in the Temple then He *will* likewise make that possible and open the way. Only He can tell them what is right for their situation, but they must be diligent and determined seekers to get those answers when He feels the timing is best to bear fruit.

Edited by Gillebre
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3 hours ago, california boy said:

Thank you for sharing some real faith experiences.  I believe those kinds of experiences are open to all of us.  I had many like this when I was a member.  I continue to have them in my life.  I remember about a month ago, riding my bike through the streets of San Francisco.  Something I do pretty regularly. There are spots where the homeless are on the streets.  Over the years I have noticed that about a third of them are drug addicts and pretty much out of it.  About a third of them have real mental problems.  They are no longer cared for in state institutions, but instead have just been turned out on the streets.  And about a third of them are down on their luck financially or have just given up on having a more normal life.  This has been born out with data as well.

On my bike ride, there was a woman in the center of the street, kinda freaking out.  My first though was that she was a drug addict high on something or maybe mentally ill.  Both groups can show eratic behavior and most of the time at some point they make it to the side walk.  But this time, something prompted me to go to her.  Turns out she was much older than I first thought.  Instead of having mental or drug issues, she was having a medical issue.  I walked her to the curb.  Asked a person near by to please call for an ambulance while I stayed with her.

We can all experiences promptings from the Spirit despite some who believe that they have to be members of the Church.  And when these kinds of things happen to me, there is a reassurance that I am on the path that God wants me to be on.  While others may disagree, my heart is actually more at peace with God than it ever was when I was struggling to fit into the Church mold.  It has made me a firm believer in the idea that there are many paths back to God.  And our relationship with him is not determined by a membership in any church, but rather being open to His promptings.

100% 

Glad you were inspired to not overlook that lady. 

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4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Not cool. 

FYI, it's an expression used by gays and supporters in other online forums to mock those who oppose homosexuality.  I thought CB would recognize the references since he's a gay dude and seems cool and hip.

I hesitated to post this because I didn't want to diminish your rush to judgement and epic rant against members of the church you dislike.

I have no hatred towards anyone, gay or straight, believer or nonbeliever.  It's a great way to live.

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3 hours ago, gopher said:

FYI, it's an expression used by gays and supporters in other online forums to mock those who oppose homosexuality.  I thought CB would recognize the references since he's a gay dude and seems cool and hip.

I hesitated to post this because I didn't want to diminish your rush to judgement and epic rant against members of the church you dislike.

I have no hatred towards anyone, gay or straight, believer or nonbeliever.  It's a great way to live.

Ok. 

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3 hours ago, gopher said:

FYI, it's an expression used by gays and supporters in other online forums to mock those who oppose homosexuality.  I thought CB would recognize the references since he's a gay dude and seems cool and hip.

I hesitated to post this because I didn't want to diminish your rush to judgement and epic rant against members of the church you dislike.

I have no hatred towards anyone, gay or straight, believer or nonbeliever.  It's a great way to live.

I have never heard Icky gay sex used as a common term in the gay community that I am involved in.  But the LGBT community is diverse.  So I can't speak for everyone.  I just though you were being demeaning.

Glad you cleared up your intention of using that phrase.

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7 hours ago, CV75 said:

But as he pointed out, he exercised the priesthood from the Church to miraculously save a mortal life. Do you have a comparable personal experience without the / a Church? Let's have some apples-to-apples comparisons to be fair in concluding that you can have the same blessings without the Church.

To be fair (and efficient), there only needs to be one compelling reason, not 5 justifications.

 

I can see a significant difference between what he and you are describing and basing your decisions on.

Really?  This is a serious post?  You want me to go toe to toe with someone so we can determine exactly what?  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Really?  This is a serious post?  You want me to go toe to toe with someone so we can determine exactly what?  

I wouldn’t say “toe to toe” is what I’m looking for. Rather, just a reasonably close comparison of compelling reasons in terms of saving mortal life and spiritual motivation. Whether it or your reply is serious or banter is up to you.

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