Vanguard Posted October 2, 2021 Share Posted October 2, 2021 17 hours ago, california boy said: Your response has nothing to do with what I asked. You and the Church are asking me and others who are gay to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. I am curious. Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom? And you can't even give me 10 reasons to make such a commitment. How about 5 reasons. Or can you not even think of 5 reasons to take this action. It is a simple request. If you or the Church can not give 5 reasons why someone who is LGBT to make this kind of commitment, then why would anyone in their right mind make such a commitment? Seems like a fair question to me, and one that shouldn't be dodged. Are we speaking of a believer or one who never did or no longer believes? I wonder what those who have made such a sacrifice would answer to your challenge? Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Nofear said: I think there is only one reason needed: “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” I am very grateful that your cross is not one I have to bear. But, I have also never met anyone who does not have a cross of fome sort. To each of us is given a mortal experience suited to our needs. Do you believe that you have to be a member of the LDS Church to take up the cross of Jesus? If not, then there still doesn't seem to be an answer to my question. And what does that have to say about what the Church has to even offer the LGBT community? 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Vanguard said: Are we speaking of a believer or one who never did or no longer believes? I wonder what those who have made such a sacrifice would answer to your challenge? I no longer believe that the leaders of the Church are guided by God. Just being honest here. While I no longer believe in the divine claims of the Church, I do believe that the Church does teach good moral principles and it is a community full of good people. But it is not a unique institution that is offering that kind of fellowship. What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection. What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice? Link to comment
OGHoosier Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, california boy said: What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection. What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice? Why do you ask us? Ask those who have done it what they saw. Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. 3 Link to comment
Nofear Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 49 minutes ago, california boy said: Do you believe that you have to be a member of the LDS Church to take up the cross of Jesus? Discipleship and devotion to Christ does not mean membership in his Church. Similarly, most commandments apply to all. It is your prerogative to deny any of those commandments exist. Nonetheless, it is not my place to judge but to love all my brothers and sisters without condition. 1 Link to comment
Maestrophil Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 1 hour ago, california boy said: I no longer believe that the leaders of the Church are guided by God. Just being honest here. While I no longer believe in the divine claims of the Church, I do believe that the Church does teach good moral principles and it is a community full of good people. But it is not a unique institution that is offering that kind of fellowship. What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection. What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice? I fully concede that if you don’t have a firm belief that the church is all it purports to be, there are no benefits to such a sacrifice. Link to comment
Popular Post Gillebre Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 On 9/30/2021 at 6:49 AM, gopher said: Yeah, I'm not interested in anyone showcasing their poster gay/straight marriage. That's not what I wish for. I do wish to hear more from those in the church that can refute your claims that they can't be LGBTQ and happy in the church. That's all I'm wishing for. If we only listened to the complainers and disaffected participants, we wouldn't have the inspirational, faith promoting stories from church history that came out of Zion's Camp, the Martin/Willey Handcart Company, and the Mountain Meadow Mass... wait, scratch that last one. I just want to hear all perspectives. I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time. In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area). Ahhh! 6 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gillebre said: I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time. In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area). Ahhh! I hope it is a sweet and wonderful occasion for both of you. 4 Link to comment
Gillebre Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Calm said: I hope it is a sweet and wonderful occasion for both of you. Thank you!! I go where He leads me. It's taken a lot of refining to come to this threshold. Edit: The answer to the question of how, why, and everything else is to grow close to the Lord's voice and let that be your confidence. If He invites you to act then He's already seen that you can succeed and be happy as long you keep Him as your life's first priority. Nothing in mortality will be perfect, but He knows you and will tailor His guidance to your situation. Hear Him, and be determined to let God prevail at any cost. Edited October 3, 2021 by Gillebre 4 Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, OGHoosier said: Why do you ask us? Ask those who have done it what they saw. Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. I am asking you because I really want to here what YOU believe are the reasons why any LGBT person would make the kind of sacrifice that is being asked. It is a pretty serious price to make. But what exactly do you think are at least 5 making such a sacrifice I agree with affection not being the exactly right word. But I think you do understand my intent. Edited October 3, 2021 by california boy Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Nofear said: Discipleship and devotion to Christ does not mean membership in his Church. Similarly, most commandments apply to all. It is your prerogative to deny any of those commandments exist. Nonetheless, it is not my place to judge but to love all my brothers and sisters without condition. I agree with everything you have said. But if I am reading your post correctly, you are basically saying that there are no real reason for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice, let alone 5 reasons. Is that what you intended to say? If not, I would still love to hear 5 reasons for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice. Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Maestrophil said: I fully concede that if you don’t have a firm belief that the church is all it purports to be, there are no benefits to such a sacrifice. What I am really asking is if I did believe, and was willing to make such a sacrifice, what would be 5 reasons to make that sacrifice. What do you think those 5 benefits of making that sacrifice. Link to comment
california boy Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Gillebre said: I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time. In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area). Ahhh! Well congratulations on your pending engagement. I am happy that you can be that attracted to someone of the opposite sex. That makes a huge difference because you can participate in the Plan of Happiness, just like everyone else. For those that can not be attracted to the opposite sex, I can't really see even 5 reasons to leave the person they love, and end up living the rest of their life celibate and without any intimate relationship. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 4 hours ago, OGHoosier said: Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. And what of those who father children and then realize they can't lie anymore? There HAD to be "something" there to enable them to..... have children and affection for a woman. That's what I don't think I will ever understand. Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 34 minutes ago, california boy said: But what exactly do you think are at least 5 making such a sacrifice If you don’t believe God is directing you to do so, I suppose one might need to come up with multiple reasons to sacrifice. But in my view the only reason worth it and the only reason needed is you believe the Spirit has told you this is the path God wants you to take. It sounds rather ridiculous to ask for 5 or 10 reasons to obey a commandment IMO, when the point of obedience is to do what God has told you to do. Yes, Lord, I will obey if you can tell me ten reasons why I should….just doesn’t sound right. The type of sacrifices required in turning your life over to God are often not easily understood and often may even seem counterproductive when judged without the addition of faith. 6 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: And what of those who father children and then realize they can't lie anymore? There HAD to be "something" there to enable them to..... have children and affection for a woman. That's what I don't think I will ever understand. Imagination is a thing. Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude with the right tools and enough time I could probably force any man to orgasm against their will even if they were utterly disgusted by me and my methods. That is an extreme example but surely if that works far less extreme measures work in the lives of people everywhere. Also, sex doesn’t require affection. It doesn’t even require attraction. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude Thank you. I was trying to think of an accurate, but respectful way and it all seemed too technical/clinical. All I managed was ”Sex doesn’t require attraction, just arousal.” Best coming from a male given it is describing the male experience in this case I think. Would it be accurate to say male arousal may often be more mechanical than emotional? As in friction is enough at times, assuming that makes sense. Edited October 3, 2021 by Calm Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, california boy said: What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT ... I'm none of those things, but as a never-married, non-heterosexual male, I could fill pages with the things the Church offers that I'm simply not willing to give up. Here are some of mine: 1. As I have posted on this forum before, one Thursday morning on my way to work some years ago, I arrived at the train station, bought a ticket, got it punched, walked through the turnstile, walked about two metres, and hit a spiritual 'brick wall'. The impression was clear: Go back into the station; someone needs you. I argued against this impression. I'd arrived at the station at that very time because the train was always super-full, and my only hope of getting into a carriage versus having to ride on the outside of it (scary!) was to be waiting on the platform in about 60 seconds. I had to get to work. The next train was 20 minutes later, and that would make me late to my first class. Etc., etc. In short, I didn't want this impression to be revelation. I wanted it to be a random thought based on nothing, concocted by my own brain. I needed it to be unreliable. So I took another step towards the platform. 'Hamba, go back into the station; someone needs you'. I felt completely stupid, but I turned around, walked back through the turnstile and past the attendant who had previously punched my ticket. It was my intention to quickly walk a circuit of the station, confirm that I was just being silly, buy another ticket, and still make it onto the platform before it got too crowded. In the back corner of the train station, I came upon an 18-year-old young man who had been riding on the outside of an earlier train and hadn't leaned in far enough as the train approached the station; consequently, the calf muscle had been ripped from the back of his left leg (attached only at the ankle). With no money to pay for an ambulance, he'd been placed in the corner and covered with a flattened cardboard carton so that no one had to watch him bleed out and die. If, confident in my own 'wisdom', I had caught the train and gone to work that morning, I would have known nothing. I also would have reduced my capacity, I believe, to receive further revelation. Instead, I had some of the most powerful experiences of my life, including the ministration of angels and the shortest priesthood blessing I have ever given: 'By the authority of the Mechizedek Priesthood, I command you to live'. The young man breathed again, and he didn't stop breathing till I got him to hospital one hour later. That involved sitting in the back of a small police truck with him in my arms, his blood having soaked through to my skin. A doctor at the hospital later told me that he had never seen anyone with so little blood in his system who was alive, but this boy was, and he experienced no organ failure of any kind. 2. As I have also posted about before, six years ago, I was facing deportation. I had done literally everything I could to qualify for permanent residence, to no avail. I took this unresolvable burden to the temple and prayed with earnestness throughout the session. In answer to which, I heard distinctly and clearly, 'Hamba, prepare yourself for what I have planned'. Immediately I was filled with peace and the almost 'pulsing' assurance that God had this one figured out. That peace stayed with me throughout the end of 2015 and well into 2016, but by the end of February, I started worrying again. Where was this plan that God had said he had? Had He really spoken to me? I was five weeks away from complete disaster. Off to the temple I went with my ward. Again, I prayed like mad. Nothing. Silence. The next day, I was travelling home by myself and took the opportunity to vent. 'Where art Thou?' I asked with a mix of desperation and rising resentment. I prayed for more than an hour as I travelled. 'Where wast Thou when I was in Thy house last night?' And then the voice again, this time returning question with question: 'Hamba, do you really have faith in Me?' 'Thou knowest I do!' I asserted angrily, trembling with indignation. Then immediately came into my mind all of my fears and worries and doubts. So I spoke aloud again, this time with a different attitude: 'Lord, I believe ... help Thou mine unbelief'. And again perfect peace. I still had no clue what was planned, but I spent the next few weeks consciously forcing myself not to fear, not to worry, not to shrink. My Bishop's wife asked me what I was going to do. I told her, 'Nothing'. 'So you've given up then?' 'No'. 'So what are you going to do?' "I've done all I can; now I'm going to be still and wait for the arm of the Lord to be revealed'. And then the miracle. Miracles upon miracles. Literally 36 hours before I was required to leave the country, everything had fallen into place (including a change to the list of occupations that qualified for sponsorship), and I had an invitation from Immigration to apply for permanent residence. Looking back, it had all been perfectly planned. A half-dozen threads all came together at the very last moment and in the only possible way. 3. I also posted about an experience I had almost exactly four years ago. I had taken a last-minute trip to the temple, and consequently I felt ill-prepared for it, but I was happy to be in the House of the Lord. I hadn't arrived with any questions, worries, or pressing issues, so instead of praying, as I often do throughout the session, I just sat back and enjoyed the beauty of the experience. I did know in the back of my mind that when I finally got home later that day, I would need to prepare a talk for sacrament meeting, but I wasn't too worried about that. Since my bishop had assigned me, I'd thought long and hard about what to say, and I had a rough outline and some good content already in my head. And then something happened. I don't actually know how to describe it, but as I sat in the endowment room, a sermon started to 'scroll' through my mind. It came in bits and pieces at first -- 'line upon line' -- until it was complete, but from that point it just looped over and over again, including throughout the next endowment session. By the time I'd finished both sessions, I had the words and ideas pretty much memorised. It was not the talk I'd partially outlined in my previous thoughts at all, and in fact it was incredibly bold, I thought. At one point I actually said, in my mind, I can't say those things; people will be offended. Then a quiet answer: Hamba, be bold. I didn't know quite why this 'intervention' happened. I hadn't been seeking help in any way, but it left me feeling empowered and at peace. In the end, I had no chance of preparing the talk I had partially planned, and I suspect the Lord was at least partially motivated by His foreknowledge of that fact. Whilst I was in the temple, somebody smashed through the back door of our house and proceeded to ransack the bedrooms, taking a number of valuable items. I got home from the temple a little before 8pm, and it was nearly 3am before everything was sorted, and I was able to lie down to sleep. In the few seconds before I was unconscious, I found myself thinking how glad I was that a ready-made talk had already been 'handed' to me. (No doubt the Spirit could have guided my preparation to give the talk the Lord wanted, but there literally wasn't any time for that process to occur.) I got up four hours later and was able to speak for 30 minutes without a single written note. I merely gave the sermon that had been thoroughly impressed upon me in the temple. How grateful I am to have access to both revelation and a place where the revelation flows! 4. I went to the temple one Saturday evening when I was studying as an undergraduate in America. It was nearly 9pm when I left the Celestial Room, and I was the sole man in the changeroom. A worker found me just as I'd got my pants off and asked if I could serve as a witness for a sealing. I said sure and proceeded to put my pants back on. In the sealing room upstairs, I was introduced to a young couple from interstate. Recent converts, they had left their home very early that morning and driven to the temple, where they had completed the baptisms and confirmations for her grandparents, received their endowments, been sealed together, and then completed endowments for her grandparents. Their final goal before leaving the temple and making the five-hour drive home was to be sealed on behalf of the grandparents. Another witness was located, and the ceremony began. I literally lack the language necessary to explain what happened during and after that ordinance, but I will never forget it. I'm not certain we were still in the temple. Time seemed to have ceased. I remember thinking that I would be happy for all of eternity to just exist in that moment. Once the amens were said, no one moved. No one spoke. The only sound I remember was the gentle sound of tears landing on the altar cloth. How long we knelt/sat there is impossible to know. We were not alone, but the number of people with us was uncountable. Eventually the sealer whispered, 'Brothers and sisters, I am so sorry to interrupt this, but the temple has closed, and we must leave'. Then: 'It is not often that one receives such a clear witness that two people have accepted an ordinance'. As we walked down to the changeroom, the temple was indeed closed. The 8:00 session had ended, lights were off, everyone had gone home and left us in the sealing room. I will never forget that experience, nor the nearly identical one I had with my sister some years later. That is just some of the things the Church offers me. I could certainly keep going ... probably for weeks, maybe months. And for me, such things are worth every 'sacrifice' I have ever made to have access to them. I've had multiple opportunities in my life to put companionship ahead of enjoying the blessings of being in full fellowship in the Church, and I'll be honest that I've been tempted! But in the end never tempted enough. As a 21-year-old missionary, I invited a woman with a de facto partner and a young son to be baptised knowing full well that her decision would require marriage or separation. She and her partner had been together for seven years, but he had always refused to marry her, and she was afraid he would continue to refuse. I shared her fear ... and rightly so. In fact, his response was to pack and move out of the house. It left her devastated. It left me devastated on her behalf. But she went through with it. Later, when she shared with some sisters in the ward that her patriarchal blessing promised her a husband someday, they cynically and thoughtlessly told her that that would be in the next life. She was so hurt by this because she had already determined that a) she almost certainly would never marry in this life and b) she would be faithful till the end anyway. We remain in contact, and she has repeatedly expressed to me her gratitude for all the blessings and miracles that her decision to be baptised has brought into her life. (If she were on this forum, maybe she could respond too!) The Law of Chastity asks very hard things of many members. The majority of adults in the Church aren't married, as was noted in the last General Conference. For people like me and my friend, the promise in Matthew 19:29 is not just words: 'And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life'. I get why people would rather believe in a version of Jesus that didn't ever say such things. Ex-Mormon forums are filled with people revelling in no longer having to give up anything they want. I get it. But it's not in any way consistent with the Christian message ... or with the plan for our exaltation. Finally, I predict that someone will try to argue that what I've just shared is somehow not unique to the Church, but that has not been my experience at all! Regardless, I have intentionally tried to select some experiences that are pretty clearly tied to unique aspects of being a fully active member of the Church. Edited October 3, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 13 Link to comment
Nofear Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 7 hours ago, california boy said: I agree with everything you have said. But if I am reading your post correctly, you are basically saying that there are no real reason for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice, let alone 5 reasons. Is that what you intended to say? If not, I would still love to hear 5 reasons for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice. No, going back to my original response there is only one reason any of us need to make any "sacrifice" and that is that our Savior has asked to do so. He asks us to obey the commandments. You don't believe it is a commandment from God to not engage in homosexual behavior. I do. And that one belief that it is what Christ wants me to do is all that I would need. That said, there are probably things God eventually wants of me that I am in self-denial of. Things that I would willfully disobey if I was actively asked to change. I believe that Christ in his mercy often avoids engaging us on things he knows we would disobey anyway and focuses more on the things that we might change in our current state. If we work with him on the smaller things first, we change and eventually we are brought to some of the items we initially would have disobeyed on. As such, I try to avoid judging others because they sin differently than I do. 4 Link to comment
gopher Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 On 10/2/2021 at 12:04 AM, california boy said: Your response has nothing to do with what I asked. You and the Church are asking me and others who are gay to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. I am curious. Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom? And you can't even give me 10 reasons to make such a commitment. How about 5 reasons. Or can you not even think of 5 reasons to take this action. It is a simple request. If you or the Church can not give 5 reasons why someone who is LGBT to make this kind of commitment, then why would anyone in their right mind make such a commitment? Seems like a fair question to me, and one that shouldn't be dodged. Since you were once a member, you already know the reasons why we strive for the Celestial Kingdom. If that's not enough, I'm not sure what I can add. It's comforting to know a loving Heavenly Father wants all of us to be in the Celestial Kingdom, no matter who we are or even what sins we've committed in the past. That's reason enough. But He does ask we keep his commandments, even those that we feel aren't fair or go against what we believe is our natural behavior. It's not easy, but what distinguishes true followers is they believe ANY sacrifice is worth it for exaltation. I'm not asking you to give up the person you love the most. Through His prophets, God has issued commandments against having intimate connections with another man (I'm assuming you are referring to icky gay sex stuff there). I'm doubtful we'll be able to stand before the judgement seat and convince God that He asked too much of us in return for exaltation. So the question really goes back to you: are you willing to make every sacrifice necessary for exaltation? It's the same question we all have to ask ourselves, often over and over again as we go throughout life. Fortunately, many have testified they have received reassurances from the Holy Ghost that it is worth it so hopefully that can give hope to others. 1 Link to comment
gopher Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 10 hours ago, Gillebre said: I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time. In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area). Ahhh! Thank you very much for sharing! I really appreciate it. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Gillebre Posted October 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 3, 2021 7 hours ago, california boy said: Well congratulations on your pending engagement. I am happy that you can be that attracted to someone of the opposite sex. That makes a huge difference because you can participate in the Plan of Happiness, just like everyone else. For those that can not be attracted to the opposite sex, I can't really see even 5 reasons to leave the person they love, and end up living the rest of their life celibate and without any intimate relationship. I appreciate your words and recognize that there is confusion around the doctrine of eternity and the Plan of Happiness as taught by the leaders of the Church. There are clear answers we don't readily have. For me it came down to finding the right person who would be willing to partner with me in putting the Lord first in our lives. I've always felt that love is nurtured and cultivated, and it was something that grew between us (we were seeking it and also made plenty of room for it). I believe that the Lord has the ability to keep His promises and enable every seeker to have all that He offers. I still don't know what eternity looks like for the person who cannot, through no fault on their part, receive traditional marriage and have it sealed in the Temple, but if I know anything it's that He is faithful and that we can choose to trust Him. What I do know, at least from my own searching, is that when we get to the Resurrection we will all become refined and new creatures to the degree that we allow Him to purify us in the time leading up to it. I believe that our feelings which have a root in both the physical body (hormones, genetics, etc...), as well as the mind and spirit, can be sanctified and perfected in Christ. Before I met my lady and we decided to pair off I was very alone for ten years with no prospects or hopes for anything but the celibate life. I'd say that my first intimacy, ironically, has been how hopeless and crushing that isolation can be. I'd decided to be celibate because I couldn't "unknow" how merciful the Lord had been in helping me find Him. Ten years of stumbling, falling, rising, and still stumbling have given me a perfect knowledge that there is no happiness for me outside the Gospel. It wasn't until I focused on anchoring the Savior as the center of my life that I discovered something I didn't expect to love and need so much: the covenants I made in the Temple wherein I took His name upon me became the beginnings of an intimate covenant relationship. For me then the ongoing journey to become more one with the Savior, and worshipping in His Temple, has given me an intimate relationship with Him where temporal loneliness isn't the same anymore. How can I feel alone when I have Someone who not only knows me so well, but is doggedly insistent on saving and perfecting me? My answer then to the seeker who is considering the celibate life: it's not about simply being chaste through your decision to abstain. It's about coming to your Savior and making the covenant relationship He offers you of more value than anything society, the world, or earthly life can offer, and holding fiercely to Him. Then if it is His will He will lead you where you're meant to be. You must be firmly grounded in Him or else the celibate and faithful life will be so very difficult. Only when His approval, and eventually His personal presence, means more to you than anything else will the sting of your Abrahamic sacrifice be swallowed up in Christ. 8 Link to comment
Maestrophil Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 9 hours ago, california boy said: What I am really asking is if I did believe, and was willing to make such a sacrifice, what would be 5 reasons to make that sacrifice. What do you think those 5 benefits of making that sacrifice. Humba Tuhan gave a much more elaborate list than I will. I just want to respond as succinctly as I can to your question to me. Now that you have agreed to the supposition that you really did believe, here are some reasons. 1. Knowing God is pleased with you. 2. Knowing you are headed towards exaltation. 3. Knowing that you qualify for blessings that are predicated upon obedience you would otherwise miss out on. 4. receiving those blessings. 5. Knowing that if the loved ones you ‘leave’ (and you don’t have to leave their lives) will receive similar blessings if they also choose to follow Gods commandments. 6. Knowing you are an example to others to lead them to Exaltation as well. 7. Having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 8. Being able to attend the temple for personal succor and revelation. There’s 8 I came up with without even having to work very hard. Now - protestation to this list based on doubt rather than belief will render this list moot. I am in no way insinuating that this would make that decision easy at. I can’t imagine how hard it would be. Especially if you already have an established same sex marriage and children. also, as some have said, I think people put too much focus on sex - without getting too far into the weeds, there are plenty of hetero marriages that are missing a sexual component/attraction for one reason or another that still stay together in love and faith, raise great families, and live a measure of fulfillment and joy knowing they are choosing righteousness over looking for the missing sexual fulfillment. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Imagination is a thing. Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude with the right tools and enough time I could probably force any man to orgasm against their will even if they were utterly disgusted by me and my methods. That is an extreme example but surely if that works far less extreme measures work in the lives of people everywhere. Also, sex doesn’t require affection. It doesn’t even require attraction. Yeah, but you're gonna voluntarily commit to that ahead of time? Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 8 hours ago, Calm said: Thank you. I was trying to think of an accurate, but respectful way and it all seemed too technical/clinical. All I managed was ”Sex doesn’t require attraction, just arousal.” Best coming from a male given it is describing the male experience in this case I think. Would it be accurate to say male arousal may often be more mechanical than emotional? As in friction is enough at times, assuming that makes sense. Arousal is a biggie, and for males it is largely visual. Yes other things work, but one does not commit one's life to "other" things. The obvious alternative here is clear and that is bisexuality which is common, but also then a matter of choice between "ok" and "great". You choose "ok"? Made babies? You don't switch for "great" You have made a commitment to your family as well. Link to comment
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