What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

ADHD may be different than LBGT but it is just as much a part of him as sexual orientation is to a a gay person.  He will never grow out of his condition.  Some things will change as he gets older but he has to deal with it his whole life in one way or another.  The challenge is to get him to overcome or put off the negative aspects and find whatever positives that might exist.  I however can not teach my son that God made him with all the issues he has and he can do whatever he wants.  He can't excuse himself from the law of man or God because how he was born.  So yes they are different but to my son, his ADHD and associated things are just as much a part of him as sexual orientation is.  When my son and I have a fight and he later says he is sorry and says "My brain is broken", asking him to change is no different than asking a gay person to change.  It is what he is.

This isn’t necessarily true. ADHD is sometimes grown out of in late teens or early 20s. The brain isn’t finished developing yet and it seems it is possible for it to self-correct. Then again, it sometimes does not correct. It didn’t for me. Then again I didn’t know I had it as a kid and life was basically a never ending series of coping mechanisms. Then as I got older the coping mechanisms stopped working as well and I got diagnosed. Now I have pills so I can sometimes function better.

And yes, I sympathize with the “brain broken” mentality.

Gee thanks God. You thought life didn’t have enough misery in it so you stuck me with this? It is for my own good right? Yeah sure, that excuse sure seems convenient and somehow covers everything without requiring any further explanation. That is my mental line and not necessarily what I believe.

I envy Bernard’s friend. While I have found my love for God growing or at least stable my trust in God has been slowly eroding for years. Not in the ultimate sense. In the ultimate sense I trust that whatever is happening is for my good but that prospect is becoming more and more horrifying because if it is for my good God will make it happen no matter how severe it is or how much misery it inflicts.

[carbon dioxide]

46 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, I just read this article, and it helped me understand your way of thinking on what you've posted here, thanks. 

I also looked it up and read this: https://adhdaware.org.uk/what-is-adhd/neurodiversity-and-other-conditions/

I hope this doesn't offend you, but have you looked into CBD oil to help, maybe even a medical strength? https://health.usnews.com/conditions/mental-health/depression/articles/cbd-oil-for-adhd-research-on-treating-symptoms

But isn't it more a mental disease than a sexual identity? Or I have no idea what I am talking about. But hope you can get him the help from the right sources. You are a wonderful parents to raise him and hoping you find the answers you need. 

ETA: My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD when she was in grade school and put in resource classes. She did have judgement issues, has a bunch of tattoo's she even gave a few of them herself, she's super talented that way. She's the mother of two sons, and she had endured more than I can imagine with having to deal with ADHD that she kept hidden, or tried. I'm very proud of the human she is though, and luckily I'm not in my state of mind while active believing LDS or I don't know how I'd have been able to handle some choices she's made such as the tattooing etc.  

My 24 year old son believes he has it too, we never had it diagnosed because I was too dumb to think he had it. Nor did we keep my daughter on meds because she said they didn't help her. But my son said he does so much better with marijuana and it helping him focus. He is doing well now, but at first it really didn't make me feel good about using an illegal drug. But think if it's done through a medical avenue that it would be safer. They both are different than their siblings in ways, because they are really out there in some ways with their choices. I'd have had a breakdown if I was still the believing LDS woman I use to be where I thought we had to look and be the perfection that was taught us. 

Luke has been using Ritalin for about 4 to 5 years.  It helps with his focusing in school but he has other issues like anxiety which it does not help.  One area that we fail at is limiting his access to sugar.  It is hard to do with an 11 year old.  I have not looked into CBD oil much but it is something to look at.  Anything to help him is needed.  It has been a blessing of sorts to me.  He has taught me more patience and understanding.  I am not as judgemental to drug users as I once was.  I believe one reason why ADHD kids are so much more prone to abuse drugs is not out of being rebellious but just a need to escape or try to medicate themselves to be more normal.  ADHD to Luke is really no different than being gay is to a gay person.  My son can't will his condition away anymore than a gay person can will a change in their orientation.  ADHD may be a mental disease but is more of a brain development problem.  It appears to be genetic and the fact that his biological mom used drugs while pregnant I am sure did not help. 

 

I approach LBGT and ADHD in similar ways and in terms of the gospel.  People may be born with things that making living the gospel an extra challenge.  However we are required to do the best we can to comply to the laws of God.  I would not ask the Church to make exceptions to the WOW simply because my son is far more prone to abuse drugs than those who do not have it.  My son will be prone to more risky sexual behavior than straight or gay people.  I would not ask an exception be carved out in the law of chastity to make it easier for him to comply.  I am confident God will have more compassion and understanding at the challenges both ADHD and LBGT people regarding their challenges but everyone is expected to put forth their best efforts to keep the commandments.  The issues of mortality will resolve themselves after death.   As we approach the second coming and the conditions in the world get worse, I do believe it can be easier for people to keep the perspective that life is short and our challenges are well.  There is hope at the end of the tunnel and the end of the tunnel gets closer with each day.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Gee thanks God. You thought life didn’t have enough misery in it so you stuck me with this? It is for my own good right? Yeah sure, that excuse sure seems convenient and somehow covers everything without requiring any further explanation.

I never believed God crafted my ADHD. I feel a better explanation is He crafted self-sustaining systems and some of them resulted in my ADHD.

I do have a theory that ADHD can be caused (or at least exacerbated) by abuse/neglect - that it cripples the reward processes that enable learning. Not sure if that applies to full-on brain fog but I can imagine a line between the two.

Could God have prevented my ADHD? I don't care. It's moot.

Is my ADHD part of God's plan? I've no idea. Anytime I thought I grokked God's plan, greater light+knowledge revealed I was mistaken. I'm fairly sure I'll exit this life not understanding any part of God's plan for me - which is okay. I think I understand enough of His priorities to craft workable plans that I think He'd approve of.

[Chum]

18 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

There is hope at the end of the tunnel and the end of the tunnel gets closer with each day.

I have an ADD theory that would indicate the opposite.  It's that ADD is a natural, expected state - one that largely didn't hamper folks until modern times. In agrarian and earlier times, ADD never mattered. We could ponder things when our brains were 100% & carry on when they weren't.

However, a world that is increasing in complexity (at exponential rates) demands that our brains operate at optimum capacity most of the time (and rising). Since society isn't interested in rolling back (or even slowing) the increased mental demands placed upon us, we can expect ADD-related issues to keep increasing right along with those demands.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes they are different but BOTH are a part of the individual at their core.  ADHD is really a disorder that is not accurately described by its name.  Its called that because of its most obvious symptoms that people see.  What it really is as developmental issue of the executive function part of the brain.  It results in a wide range of issues.  In addition to hyperactivity and inattention, other things exist like ticks, poor decision making, impulsiveness, difficultly organizing tasks. and it is often present with other disorders.  Kids like my son are at risk are

Trouble getting motivated or finishing tasks (either at work or at home)

Being late or not following through on commitments, appointments, or responsibilities

Impulsive spending or overspending

Starting fights or arguing

Trouble maintaining friendships and romantic relationships

Speeding and dangerous driving

Substance abuse (ADHD makes you up to six times more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol.)

Risky sexual behaviors, such as having unprotected sex

https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-dangerous-risky-behavior

Mentally ADHD people can lag up to 30% behind their peers.  So a 10 year old kid will be closer to a 7 or 8 year old than a 10 year old in terms of their mental, emotional, and decision making process.  A 15 year old closer to a 12 year old.  They never catch up but as it gets less important as adulthood progresses. 

The biological father of my son is in prison.  My son a few months ago made a bad decision and he go arrested.  Seeing my 10 year old in handcuffs being taken off by the police was pretty hard.  Thankfully they could not hold him and the original felony charge was reduced to so he just had to do 11 hours community service.  My great fear is that he  could walk the same path as his biological dad even though he has never met him. 

ADHD may be different than LBGT but it is just as much a part of him as sexual orientation is to a a gay person.  He will never grow out of his condition.  Some things will change as he gets older but he has to deal with it his whole life in one way or another.  The challenge is to get him to overcome or put off the negative aspects and find whatever positives that might exist.  I however can not teach my son that God made him with all the issues he has and he can do whatever he wants.  He can't excuse himself from the law of man or God because how he was born.  So yes they are different but to my son, his ADHD and associated things are just as much a part of him as sexual orientation is.  When my son and I have a fight and he later says he is sorry and says "My brain is broken", asking him to change is no different than asking a gay person to change.  It is what he is.

 

Do you. believe that being straight is similar to ADHD as well?

[MrShorty]

I think I understand the comparison to ADHD (something built in to you that you maybe cannot change but somehow need to cope with). For me, my own heterosexuality has still been the lens that I understand homosexuality through. As a higher desire spouse (HDS) in a sexless marriage, my sexual desires often feel more like a burden rather than a blessing. Hang around places discussing libido and desire issues very long, and you will encounter some HDS who is looking for advice on "overcoming their natural man's/woman's" sexual desires so they can be less frustrated in their marriage. Which, in Christian and LDS circles, will often trigger a discussion about whether or not one should even try to "turn off" their sexual desires like that. The usual conclusion is that God gave us these desires so we could somehow bless our spouses, He does not intend that we "overcome" our desires, so turning them off would be inappropriate (even if there were a cheap, easy way to turn them off). If God does not intend for me to turn off my sexual desires, then perhaps God does not intend for homosexuals to overcome their desires, either.

In the long run, it really comes down to just how much we believe that sexuality and sexual desires are part of the natural man and how much they aren't.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

I have a long list of stuff that helped my ADHD, for two weeks and then never again. CBD is on it.

Sounds like me and RLS. My brain learns too quickly how to override the new normal.  It works just long enough to get my hopes up I may have my miracles and then wham, major backfire.  Though it does appear the medical cannabis is something that could work long term if I can figure out how to avoid the side effect of abdominal pain.  
 

I am trying to think about how cannabis can help with focus when it does the opposite with me, but ADHD has some interesting contrary reactions to drugs, so not too surprising. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

I have an ADD theory that would indicate the opposite.  It's that ADD is a natural, expected state - one that largely didn't hamper folks until modern times. In agrarian and earlier times, ADD never mattered. We could ponder things when our brains were 100% & carry on when they weren't.

However, a world that is increasing in complexity (at exponential rates) demands that our brains operate at optimum capacity most of the time (and rising). Since society isn't interested in rolling back (or even slowing) the increased mental demands placed upon us, we can expect ADD-related issues to keep increasing right along with those demands.

Based on the weirdos of history I suspect had ADHD most of them didn’t lead happy lives. Then again there is probably some things in our present culture ‘triggering’ it.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

Sounds like me and RLS. My brain learns too quickly how to override the new normal.  It works just long enough to get my hopes up I may have my miracles and then wham, major backfire.  Though it does appear the medical cannabis is something that could work long term if I can figure out how to avoid the side effect of abdominal pain.  
 

I am trying to think about how cannabis can help with focus when it does the opposite with me, but ADHD has some interesting contrary reactions to drugs, so not too surprising. 

Yeah, I take amphetamines every day and am calmer when for most people it would be the opposite. One of the ways they traced that stimulants helped is a study showed that people with symptoms were doing better when they were using cocaine.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

the ultimate sense I trust that whatever is happening is for my goo

My belief is not that what is happening is for my own good or anyone else’s, but I can trust God to turn it to good in some way. Like parents who have lost a child establishing a scholarship in the child’s name. The loss of the child is still horrific and still something very wrong for the family, but they have taken their sorrow and done something good out of that sorrow so mourning won’t be the only meaning of the experience, but something that gives them happiness or at least satisfaction. 
 

And in the end God can do what parents can’t do for themselves, restore the lost child and remove the source of horror in their life, heal the wounds and remove the pain. Whatever was good or meaningful in the experience remains. 
 

But that doesn’t mean the horror and pain they went through was “good”.  It means they endured it and then it was removed and replaced by God’s joy. 
 

Quote

never believed God crafted my ADHD. I feel a better explanation is He crafted self-sustaining systems and some of them resulted in my ADHD

Yes, my rls is not a gift from God even if my body is. It is one of many obstacles and burdens I get to work around to get to the good stuff. Just because I am able at times to experience the good stuff does not turn RLS or these other twists into something good. 
 

My body and spirit, my soul is an unfinished creation, a work in progress that won’t be finished in this lifetime, a creation that is being sculpted by my own choices and the influences of the environment as well as many of the choices and influences that happened to my ancestors resulting in certain mutations that became the family curse of RLS.  RLS is an artifact of a mortal life system that was required to be left imperfect in order to achieve the ultimate purpose of progression and humanity’s joy in the ways of God. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Luke has been using Ritalin for about 4 to 5 years.  It helps with his focusing in school but he has other issues like anxiety which it does not help.  One area that we fail at is limiting his access to sugar.  It is hard to do with an 11 year old.  I have not looked into CBD oil much but it is something to look at.  Anything to help him is needed.  It has been a blessing of sorts to me.  He has taught me more patience and understanding.  I am not as judgemental to drug users as I once was.  I believe one reason why ADHD kids are so much more prone to abuse drugs is not out of being rebellious but just a need to escape or try to medicate themselves to be more normal.  ADHD to Luke is really no different than being gay is to a gay person.  My son can't will his condition away anymore than a gay person can will a change in their orientation.  ADHD may be a mental disease but is more of a brain development problem.  It appears to be genetic and the fact that his biological mom used drugs while pregnant I am sure did not help. 

 

I approach LBGT and ADHD in similar ways and in terms of the gospel.  People may be born with things that making living the gospel an extra challenge.  However we are required to do the best we can to comply to the laws of God.  I would not ask the Church to make exceptions to the WOW simply because my son is far more prone to abuse drugs than those who do not have it.  My son will be prone to more risky sexual behavior than straight or gay people.  I would not ask an exception be carved out in the law of chastity to make it easier for him to comply.  I am confident God will have more compassion and understanding at the challenges both ADHD and LBGT people regarding their challenges but everyone is expected to put forth their best efforts to keep the commandments.  The issues of mortality will resolve themselves after death.   As we approach the second coming and the conditions in the world get worse, I do believe it can be easier for people to keep the perspective that life is short and our challenges are well.  There is hope at the end of the tunnel and the end of the tunnel gets closer with each day.

Many drugs actually alleviate the symptoms and give people with ADHD a break from the mental static. It does for me. When I was younger and it got too intense I would binge eat to shut my mind up. Thankfully I would then not eat for a few days so it was hard for anyone (including myself) to see it as an issue.

As for risky sexual behavior….yeah. There is a reason it is almost a cliche for people with ADHD to be bisexual and/or get involved with multiple people and/or pursue kinks and fetishes that range from mild to scary dangerous. The demand for novelty to get your brain to shut up is exhausting and the fantasy and/or reality of the taboo or the unknown is dangerous.

Life isn’t short enough and putting off your hopes until death is probably not very healthy. Not saying I don’t sometimes do it but it is still probably not healthy.  

23 minutes ago, california boy said:

Do you. believe that being straight is similar to ADHD as well?

I don’t believe either of them are analogous. There is a lot of crossover in studies but I don’t know what to make of it. ADHD has a genetic component but there is a lot more to it.

3 hours ago, Chum said:

I never believed God crafted my ADHD. I feel a better explanation is He crafted self-sustaining systems and some of them resulted in my ADHD.

He saw the end from the beginning. One of the disadvantages of being God is you can’t throw up your hands and say you never meant for that to happen.

3 hours ago, Chum said:

I do have a theory that ADHD can be caused (or at least exacerbated) by abuse/neglect - that it cripples the reward processes that enable learning. Not sure if that applies to full-on brain fog but I can imagine a line between the two.

Could God have prevented my ADHD? I don't care. It's moot.

I don’t think it is caused but people with ADHD who are abused tend to have horrific outcomes. People with ADHD almost all end up with a harsh criticizing internal voice even if their discipline and rearing are loving. Add in external voices and you get a lot of trauma.

I care.

3 hours ago, Chum said:

Is my ADHD part of God's plan? I've no idea. Anytime I thought I grokked God's plan, greater light+knowledge revealed I was mistaken. I'm fairly sure I'll exit this life not understanding any part of God's plan for me - which is okay. I think I understand enough of His priorities to craft workable plans that I think He'd approve of.

I don’t know either. I don’t think I understand enough of his priorities to do the same a lot of the time.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not saying I don’t sometimes do it but it is still probably not healthy

I need reasons now to get out of bed and move. A hope that I won’t be struggling in the next life is not enough for me.  

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In the ultimate sense I trust that whatever is happening is for my good but that prospect is becoming more and more horrifying because if it is for my good God will make it happen no matter how severe it is or how much misery it inflicts.

As I've pondered the problem of evil I've started to have something of the same experience. I trust God but at the same time I...don't...because His long-term goals and my short-term desires aren't necessarily compatible...and compared to Him my entire mortal life is a collection of short-term desires. 

It's frightening. 

[Fair Dinkum]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:00 AM, Stormin' Mormon said:

The intense discussions of LGBT issues this week (both here and on my personal Facebook feed) has highlighted in my mind the fact that I don't even know what LGBT advocates want the Church to do.

Treat ALL members equally 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

However, God & I both know how much I need positive reinforcement and this feels a lot like the opposite.

Mortality is like an Escher print, taking you places that are not really logical.  Really wonder how much is illusion created by our brains trying to make sense of something inherently senseless at some levels. 
 

How can progress occur within the framework of a deteriorating disorder?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Chum]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think I understand enough of his priorities to do the same a lot of the time.

I just browse the endless volumes of Church supplied responsibilities and pick stuff I like to do.

That does get into the weeds of Did God sculpt me to like genealogy? which feels fairly manipulative. But whatever. It's still better than not liking what I do.

[Chum]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Mortality is like an Escher print, taking you places that are not really logical.  Really wonder how much is illusion created by our brains trying to make sense of something inherently senseless at some levels. 

Okay but I still really need for the cheese to appear when I push the button.  When I stop pushing the button and suddenly I get enough cheese and it isn't even covered in mold - well, now I'm kind of afraid to push the button.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Chum said:

Okay but I still really need for the cheese to appear when I push the button.  When I stop pushing the button and suddenly I get enough cheese and it isn't even covered in mold - well, now I'm kind of afraid to push the button.

Yes, I know the feeling of rewards and ‘punishments’ not being connected to the appropriate behaviour. 

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This isn’t necessarily true. ADHD is sometimes grown out of in late teens or early 20s. The brain isn’t finished developing yet and it seems it is possible for it to self-correct. Then again, it sometimes does not correct. It didn’t for me. Then again I didn’t know I had it as a kid and life was basically a never ending series of coping mechanisms. Then as I got older the coping mechanisms stopped working as well and I got diagnosed. Now I have pills so I can sometimes function better.

And yes, I sympathize with the “brain broken” mentality.

Gee thanks God. You thought life didn’t have enough misery in it so you stuck me with this? It is for my own good right? Yeah sure, that excuse sure seems convenient and somehow covers everything without requiring any further explanation. That is my mental line and not necessarily what I believe.

I envy Bernard’s friend. While I have found my love for God growing or at least stable my trust in God has been slowly eroding for years. Not in the ultimate sense. In the ultimate sense I trust that whatever is happening is for my good but that prospect is becoming more and more horrifying because if it is for my good God will make it happen no matter how severe it is or how much misery it inflicts.

Sometimes people do grow out and some don't.  I suppose it depends on the level that each kid has.  

[carbon dioxide]

52 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Treat ALL members equally 

That is too broad.  Men are ordained to the priesthood, women are not.   Some members based on their actions get to go to the temple, others do not.  Treating all members equally would result in ignoring or disregarding a number of things the Lord has established.   I think a better view would be to love all members equally and lift up all members regardless of their situation.  Help all members to repent and build up all members who are trying to do their best and encourage those who are not to do better.  

Edited August 29, 2021 by carbon dioxide

[OGHoosier]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

Mortality is like an Escher print, taking you places that are not really logical.  Really wonder how much is illusion created by our brains trying to make sense of something inherently senseless at some levels. 
 

How can progress occur within the framework of a deteriorating disorder?

A fine point, if I may. 

Michael Gazzaniga is a neuroscientist who offers a model of the mind that has an "interpreter module" in the left side of the brain, which basically exists to provide a coherent narrative, to help us make sense of the world (though my description of it is a gross oversimplification.) I'm not inclined to immediately accept his theory because there are a lot of theories like that going around, and while I might consider myself competent to consider competing theories of history or theology, I'm not well-read enough in neuroscience to claim the same honors. But the idea that a part of our brain/mind/whatever exists to impose a narrative, an order where there might not be any, is interesting and seems relatively intuitive. It seems obvious to me, for instance, that we are not capable of grasping the world as it truly is in all of its complexity. I expect that, one day, when I have a mind like God's, I will love it all the more because I was once as blinkered as I now am. 

[Robert F. Smith]

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/byu-student-caught-video-using-163552699.html

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Sometimes people do grow out and some don't.  I suppose it depends on the level that each kid has.  

Reading up it seems they now believe that you don’t grow out of it but about a fifth of children after reaching adulthood develop natural coping mechanisms and no longer meet the diagnosis due to these changes. So maybe it doesn’t correct but maturity can let some knock out the symptoms.

[Tacenda]

I probably posted this back in 2013, but love this girl:

 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I probably posted this back in 2013, but love this girl:

 

Thanks for posting that.  I hadn't seen it before.