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The Elder Holland I Know


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4 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

We just see the world differently. Sorry it bothers you. 

Why close with a passive aggressive comment?  It does not bother me a bit. I am just discussing it.  Rather it is you who seems bothered since you view my comments as an attack. Really?  An attack?  On a discussion board?  I am quite fine with people disagreeing with me and thinking I am all mixed up and possibly wrong Well most here think I am wrong.  And guess what. I am open to being wrong Are you?

 

So sorry you feel I am attacking all of you believers.

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9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why close with a passive aggressive comment?  It does not bother me a bit. I am just discussing it.  Rather it is you who seems bothered since you view my comments as an attack. Really?  An attack?  On a discussion board?  I am quite fine with people disagreeing with me and thinking I am all mixed up and possibly wrong Well most here think I am wrong.  And guess what. I am open to being wrong Are you?

 

So sorry you feel I am attacking all of you believers.

There was more to his post than that…go ahead, discuss it.

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2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I spend lots of time at monasteries. I assure you, the monks are not complaining about needing a satisfying relationship in a marriage. Their relationship with God is the "most important and possibly satisfying relationship" they have. They have chosen a life of celibacy as part of their means to deepen their mystical relationship God. It is their choice. Bernard's friend has also chosen a life of celibacy as a means to further his relationship with God.

Who are you to tell them they are wrong? Who are you to tell them they are making the wrong choice with their lives?

I have a question for any of our resident Catholics. I don't know much about the scriptural tradition surrounding Catholic (and Orthodox as well, I suppose) monastic practice. Is this scripture often brought up in connection with it?

Quote

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

- Matthew 19:11-12, KJV

 

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26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

our temple president, his brother is/was also gay with AIDS but died from it in the 1980's

My friend has survived since about 1978. At great cost. 

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7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I spend lots of time at monasteries. I assure you, the monks are not complaining about needing a satisfying relationship in a marriage. Their relationship with God is the "most important and possibly satisfying relationship" they have. They have chosen a life of celibacy as part of their means to deepen their mystical relationship God. It is their choice. Bernard's friend has also chosen a life of celibacy as a means to further his relationship with God.

Who are you to tell them they are wrong? Who are you to tell them they are making the wrong choice with their lives?

I am not telling them they are wrong. I am just sharing my thoughts and opinions.  Who are you to tell them they are right?  But the Taliban think it fine to cut of the head of those who offend their view of Islamic law. Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

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9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Your secular hubris would be annoying if it weren't comical.

In my experience here ( as well as in my real life) it is the true believers that are the most hubris and arrogant humans that I run into. Especially those who do apologetics.  For what is it worth. Carry on in your self assured certainty.

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6 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I have a question for any of our resident Catholics. I don't know much about the scriptural tradition surrounding Catholic (and Orthodox as well, I suppose) monastic practice. Is this scripture often brought up in connection with it?

 

Yes, that scripture is used often when discussing the consecrated life. What is the LDS take on it, since choosing celibacy for religious reasons doesn't seem to have much of a place in LDS theology.

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well let me expand.  Certainly your friend can do that and find happiness.  and can serve and find meaning  in life. I agree with that.

 

Yet your friend is denying himself one of the most important and possibly satisfying relationships a human can have.  And for what?  The hope (without evidence) that God is going to somehow fix him and make it all right?  Ad further that view lends him to some how view his very being as flawed and broken and in need of repair.  That somehow this is a trial he is called to suffer.  Yet you cheer his faith as if this is somehow the pinnacle of nobility and goodness?  I think your world view is much more heartless than mine.  You cheer him on in denying a large part of who he is.  You raise him for denying himself an an emotional and physically intimated relationship.  For what?  Because your God says this how he should live?  Based on what?  Faith?  With no evidence other than your own faith and emotional experiences and feelings that you think is God telling you what you believe it right and true?  Yes I think that part is sad for him.  Very sad. And your cheering him on is more heartless than anything I have said because you cheer him on because he conforms to YOUR beliefs of what is right and wrong.

No, he absolutely conforms to his own beliefs of what is right. I have had nothing to do with his choices. We were not in touch for many years. 

You  could not possibly in any conceivable way be more clueless. In fact, if I were to look up clueless on Wikipedia, your response would be the definitive entry. Maybe when I have more time I can provide more details of his journey, but it is so sacred maybe not. I will chalk this up to lack of knowledge about his life.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, he absolutely conforms to his own beliefs of what is right. I have had nothing to do with his choices. We were not in touch for many years. 

You  could not possibly in any conceivable way be more clueless. In fact, if I were to look up clueless on Wikipedia, your response would be the definitive entry. Maybe when I have more time I can provide more details of his journey, but it is so sacred maybe not. I will chalk this up to lack of knowledge about his life.

You shared limited info on something personal. I responded based on  that info. So blame yourself. don't bother with more details.  Not interested in talking with you further about it. 

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2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You shared limited info on something personal. I responded based on  that info. So blame yourself. don't bother with more details.  Not interested in talking with you further about it. 

Psst: I thought you didn't have time to respond to OG's substantial (meaning it has substance) post, yet you keep posting...

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56 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I spend lots of time at monasteries. I assure you, the monks are not complaining about needing a satisfying relationship in a marriage. Their relationship with God is the "most important and possibly satisfying relationship" they have. They have chosen a life of celibacy as part of their means to deepen their mystical relationship God. It is their choice. Bernard's friend has also chosen a life of celibacy as a means to further his relationship with God.

Who are you to tell them they are wrong? Who are you to tell them they are making the wrong choice with their lives?

I am genuinely curious. Are gay Catholics advised to become monks, priests, or nuns? Can they be “out” and still Catholic if they aren’t acting on it? 

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43 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, that scripture is used often when discussing the consecrated life. What is the LDS take on it, since choosing celibacy for religious reasons doesn't seem to have much of a place in LDS theology.

I'm not sure there is any one "LDS take" on it...which I confess is something you must hear quite frequently. 

My take on it, in conjunction with Paul's writings (though it seems to me that those can be interpreted in a couple of ways) leads me to think that there are conditions where the advancement of God's kingdom or God's particular work for an individual would be better served by remaining unmarried. I don't think those conditions obtain generally, but in specific situations they could be justified, and I think the initial establishment of the first-century Church would probably produce several of those situations. All hands on deck, as it were. 

I think it also stands as a balancing weight to Paul's "better to marry than burn" discourse. Those who are in situations not conducive to marriage can and have pursued such a course with honor - this seems to be the Savior's point. 

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53 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, that scripture is used often when discussing the consecrated life. What is the LDS take on it, since choosing celibacy for religious reasons doesn't seem to have much of a place in LDS theology.

On the contrary ... I have "chosen celibacy" for religious reasons, it's just that, outside of a two-year or eighteen-month window for young men and young women, respectively, in which celibacy is expected, it's also expected that most all of them will marry.  That, of course, takes two, and I am but one, so ... ;) :D  I really wish we had something akin to monastacism in the Church of Jesus Christ, but alas ... ;) :D  Whaddayagonna do? :unknw: :huh:

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41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Psst: I thought you didn't have time to respond to OG's substantial (meaning it has substance) post, yet you keep posting...

This wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen him use the exact same excuse when there was a response of substance, and not falling into the trap of responding to the snide remarks.

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30 minutes ago, Rivers said:

A General Authority said something about LGBT issues and the outrage mob is throwing a fit?  Must be Tuesday.

Or Saturday ... or Sunday ... or Monday ... ;) :D

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19 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I am genuinely curious. Are gay Catholics advised to become monks, priests, or nuns? Can they be “out” and still Catholic if they aren’t acting on it? 

Officially, no, gay Catholics should not be priests or live consecrated lives (monks, nuns). The Vatican has affirmed this multiple times, including Pope Francis fairly recently (2-3 years ago?). However, clergy are ordained at the local level, and many bishops ignore this rule. There appear to be many gay priests.

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

So tomorrow there is a revelation stating we have it all wrong.  Homosexual marriage is God's way. Heterosexual marriage is a sin.  You now cannot have a meaningful heterosexuals' relationship.  How do you feel  Ready to give it up?   Further your comparison to an intimate relationship that can include marriage to relatives and friends is ludicrous.  Certainly those are important and fulfilling but nothing like what I have with my spouse.  But I think  you know that.

Oh my. 

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