The Elder Holland I Know

[Duncan]

56 minutes ago, Rivers said:

A General Authority said something about LGBT issues and the outrage mob is throwing a fit?  Must be Tuesday.

outrage mob was going after the President of the Church over vaccines, can you imagine? It's still all over the internet

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Carl Sagan's book Contact is an excellent examination of this idea from a man who spent his life focused on rationality. In the end, the scientist was unable to convey her experience and called for a poet instead.

I did se the movie.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Psst: I thought you didn't have time to respond to OG's substantial (meaning it has substance) post, yet you keep posting...

His post would take a long time to respond to. Besides I don't need to respond based on the demand of another poster.

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh my. 

Is it tough to do some reflection when it may be you in the shoes of someone else who is suffering?

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Officially, no, gay Catholics should not be priests or live consecrated lives (monks, nuns). The Vatican has affirmed this multiple times, including Pope Francis fairly recently (2-3 years ago?). However, clergy are ordained at the local level, and many bishops ignore this rule. There appear to be many gay priests.

Thank you for educating me on this. It sounds like both the LDS church and Catholic church are grappling with this subject. 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

outrage mob was going after the President of the Church over vaccines, can you imagine? It's still all over the internet

I was trying to give you an upvote but accidentally gave you a down vote. I switched it back but it stayed red, so I just took it off, lol! Here is your up vote:) 👍 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Is it tough to do some reflection when it may be you in the shoes of someone else who is suffering?

You are way out of bounds, Brother T. It’s not about me. Looks like he isn’t gay enough for your taste or too stupid to realize the oppression or both. In any case, you have no status to speak for or about him. That’s why I asked earlier if the current LGB folks think they speak for all gay Saints   In this case, they do not. Neither do you.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I was trying to give you an upvote but accidentally gave you a down vote. I switched it back but it stayed red, so I just took it off, lol! Here is your up vote:) 👍 

aha! thank you kindly!☺️

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

outrage mob was going after the President of the Church over vaccines, can you imagine? It's still all over the internet

First Presidency:  We really upset a lot of the conservatives in the church with our statement on vaccination.  We need to even things out by angering the liberals.

Elder Holland: I’ll get right on that.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

You shared limited info on something personal. I responded based on  that info. So blame yourself. don't bother with more details.  Not interested in talking with you further about it. 

No. Based on your insensitive and inflammatory comments about him here,  my sharing with you anything more about this sacred experience which has spanned 5 decades would be highly inappropriate and a huge disservice to  my friend.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh, thank you, Scott. You are human after all! I have been waiting decades to be able to do this! 😉

On the other hand, this is also a brilliant pun. If intentional, my hat is off to you. I am not worthy. 👏

I never laid claim to not being human or to being perfect linguistically. I suppose what sets me apart from some others is I don’t get in a snit when that is pointed out. 
 

Thanks, by the way. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never laid claim to not being human or to being perfect linguistically. I suppose what sets me apart from some others is I don’t get in a snit when that is pointed out. 
 

Thanks, by the way. 

No, I never thought you did. I hope I didn’t tempt you to get the snit. It was all in good fun. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

First Presidency:  We really upset a lot of the conservatives in the church with our statement on vaccination.  We need to even things out by angering the liberals.

Elder Holland: I’ll get right on that.

If anything needed balancing out it was probably the university’s new vice president-level Office of Belonging, announced at the same faculty conference where Elder Holland made his much-maligned speech. 
 

Think about it: What more appropriate occasion to give a resounding acclamation of BYU’s uniqueness than one where it has just been announced that the school is jumping on the trendy “diversity, equity and inclusion“ bandwagon so that it can be like other institutions?
 

One wonders if we’re going to start seeing “safe spaces” and no-whites-allowed zones on campus now. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[JustAnAustralian]

The whole thing that gets me with this incident is that the whole thing could have been done with a bulk email to staff saying: "Staff are reminded that as employees of BYU, and by extension employees of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are expected to act in ways that are not antagonistic to church teachings". Then let Elder Holland speak on something else in his normal manner.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, I never thought you did. I hope I didn’t tempt you to get the snit. It was all in good fun. 

I know it was. That’s how I received it. 
 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The whole thing that gets me with this incident is that the whole thing could have been done with a bulk email to staff saying: "Staff are reminded that as employees of BYU, and by extension employees of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are expected to act in ways that are not antagonistic to church teachings". Then let Elder Holland speak on something else in his normal manner.

I think the speech carried a needed impact that could not have been achieved by any bulk email. For better or worse, the public at large now understands, if they didn’t before, the standard to which administration, faculty and staff are being held. That affirmation might be dearly needed in days to come. 
 

Added later: Last year’s sorry episode involving the badly misconstrued intent of the Honor Code revision dramatizes how even on campus, too many are creeping away from that understanding. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If anything needed balancing out it was probably the university’s new vice president-level Office of Belonging, announced at the same faculty conference where Elder Holland made his much-maligned speech. 
 

Think about it: What more appropriate occasion to give a resounding acclamation of BYU’s uniqueness than one where it has just been announced that the school is jumping on the trendy “diversity, equity and inclusion“ bandwagon so that it can be like other institutions. 
 

One wonders if we’re going to start seeing “safe spaces” and no-whites-allowed zones on campus now. 

Let the wild rumpus begin! Students occupying the Chancellor’s office, riding professors they dislike out on rails, shouting down dissent…all those fun things.  

I’ve imagined the Church cutting BYU loose from its influence, letting it fund and staff itself, set its own independent policies, make its way into the good graces of Big Academia, become like the others. I’m sure that’s not what the Brethren have in mind for its future, but it does give me something to ponder in retirement. 

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The whole thing that gets me with this incident is that the whole thing could have been done with a bulk email to staff saying: "Staff are reminded that as employees of BYU, and by extension employees of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are expected to act in ways that are not antagonistic to church teachings". Then let Elder Holland speak on something else in his normal manner.

This too, but who reads administration emails? Even that would be booed as the Brethren’s heavy handed way of exerting unrighteousness dominion over “their” university. 

[JustAnAustralian]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ve imagined the Church cutting BYU loose from its influence,

Isn't that essentially the University of Utah?

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the speech carried a needed impact that could not have been achieved by any bulk email. For better or worse, the public at large now understands, if they didn’t before, the standard to which administration, faculty and staff are being held. That affirmation might be dearly needed in days to come. 

I would replace “might” with “will.” I do not understand how employees or students who sign contracts with BYU go in not aware of what is expected. There are hundreds of other places to go with no such restrictions. Why go there with the intent to rearrange the furniture to one’s liking? Makes no sense to me.

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Isn't that essentially the University of Utah?

Could be. Of course the name would have to be changed and statues of BY toppled. Any suggestions?

[JAHS]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could be. Of course the name would have to be changed and statues of BY toppled. Any suggestions?

How about

The University Formerly Known as BYU?

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I would replace “might” with “will.” I do not understand how employees or students who sign contracts with BYU go in not aware of what is expected. There are hundreds of other places to go with no such restrictions. Why go there with the intent to rearrange the furniture to one’s liking? Makes no sense to me.

 

do you think that BYU of 2021 should operate like BYU of 1941? who wants to attend a school or anything that doesn't keep up with the times?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

do you think that BYU of 2021 should operate like BYU of 1941? who wants to attend a school or anything that doesn't keep up with the times?

Guys could have beards at least if it was.  

[Gillebre]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

One of the worst things about religion is its ability to convince people to live a life of suffering and pain in the hope of some eternal reward. Suffering and pain come for us all, but to choose it seems so sad. 

 

10 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And yet he is denied companionship. Elder Holland had previously stated that Heaven could not be Heaven without that companionship. Look at your item life. What has that companionship with Sister Gui meant for you?

I have a few thoughts to share about your assertion of denied companionship. Right now I'm in a similar position to the friend that @Bernard Gui is referring to. With all due respect I believe, and my experience informs me, that your views of the companionship you think we're missing are incomplete. If companionship is only the loving partnership of two people in this world, same gender or not, then I don't believe you're seeing the whole picture as we see it.

If the Lord really does ask the Saints who are gay to forsake all other ideologies and practices outside of their covenants, making Him their highest priority, then surely He would provide a way for them to actually accomplish what He has asked of them. This is the very witness of all the scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon, that in addition to our need for a Savior it is that same Savior who never gives a commandment without a way to fulfill it.

This is our testimony: that living a celibate and faithful life is not an impossibility when you have God's pure witness to your very soul that He will provide a way where you can triumph over all your foes. Trust me when I say that I wouldn't be choosing this life if I didn't have the assurance that He had greater things in mind for me and could actually enable me to accomplish what He's asked.

We could liken this in a way to other Christian traditions where certain groups of the faithful abstain from physical or sexual companionship. You may not think anything of it but there is a conviction and confidence that comes when we stand before Him willing to forsake everything we want and are in favor of what He wants to give us instead, and what He has in mind is far more grand, worthwhile, and outright majestic than anything we could accomplish if left to ourselves.

What society calls happiness, peace, and satisfaction are sorely lacking in the eternal perspective that this life is not all there is, and what we have chosen to become through service, ministry, compassion, forgiveness, and grace means everything. Anyone who has sought with all their might, mind, and strength to become one with the Savior can likewise testify that this satisfaction surpasses all understanding while also transforming and purifying our mortal needs in a manner that enables us to be faithful to Him.

I'm not saying that every person, every LGBT Saint, must make the same choice I've made, but that contrary to conventional wisdom, and Satan's deception, it's not impossible or undesirable as long as you can see something of what He sees. Again I say that If I didn't know that He was real and had a plan for me then I would be living as my feelings dictated, but I testify that He does live, and that His plan is to transform our perspective so that we can bear all things through and with Him.

I wrote a journal entry the other day thanks to some prompting from a new friend, and I think it would be appropriate to share. I was asked how I could navigate the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ while being attracted as I am. This is my perspective as a Saint who, due to countless experiences with the Lord, cannot deny the truth and light that this Gospel is everything it claims to be even as I struggle with answers the Lord hasn't given yet. 

I invite you and everyone, no matter what side of the debate you find yourself, to find more compassion for those striving to live their faith, and also for those who have felt to find their way outside of it. Both groups of Saints as well as everyone in between need all the love and generosity we can muster. It's not an either-or proposition despite how many voices claim you can only do one or the other.

Quote

What I know now, and what I'll tell every other brother who has ever felt as I did, is that the real need we should be seeking to have met first and before anything else is the need for a personal Savior. It is my covenant relationship with Jesus Christ as my Redeemer that allows me the grace and peace to live my life in satisfaction after the manner of happiness. What I think we all fail to realize is that everything temporal eventually fades away and can't compare to the indescribable joy of being redeemed. No other companionship, need, distraction, or appetite will ever compare to the feeling that your personal striving is accepted by the Lord, and that He will give you His perfection until one day, in His presence, you've gained your own.

I'm not saying that I don't still have unmet needs, but my truest need was first for a Savior who really understands what I'm going through, what I'm yet lacking, and has the power to change my heart. This is what makes all the difference: receiving the Holy Ghost on a daily, hourly, and even moment-to-moment basis is the only way I've ever found to go against what the world says my life should be like. In every instance of darkness throughout my life the Lord has been faithful to me and kept His promises (even when I couldn't recognize or see His hands holding me up). My past experiences have helped me build a foundation of trust wherein I can stand steadfast only because I know He stands with me.

I can live a dignified and sanctified life because by covenant I am His and He is mine. Every need, including the need for mortal companionship, that I don't think I can have met because I'm being faithful to His will is made up by Him whether here or hereafter. It is because I trust Him, and He's proven His faithfulness, that I can give Him this enormous burden. He has promised that I do have a place with Him in His Kingdom even if I don't have all the answers now. In the end I've learned that the only question I need to answer right now is whether I can trust Him to keep His promises. Even in the midst of every difficult emotion, trial, and consequence of sin, I'm now certain that I can trust Him to not abandon me. 

As I search the scriptures regularly, cherish His mercies in the past, seek to both live and pray by His word, and worship in the Temple, I gain much needed glimpses of His eternal perspective. Finally with His point of view that we've sought diligently to obtain, and keep, does all pain become temporary in Him, by Him, and through Him. Nothing else is worth more than that oneness. Only then can we live the life He wants for us because of a new heart for a new creature. Only then can no power of hell, nor scheme of man, ever snatch us from His hand.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Gillebre