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Elder Holland: BYU may need to "stand alone"


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28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And people will usually side with their family, I'm hoping.

So you're hoping that people will completely ignore Jesus's repeated instruction that loyalty to Him and His teachings was more important than loyalty to family?

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14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you're hoping that people will completely ignore Jesus's repeated instruction that loyalty to Him and His teachings was more important than loyalty to family?

Yes I'm hoping they would not kick their child to the curb, and don't believe Jesus would want them to. 

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22 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

As @Hamba Tuhan points out, "homosexuality" as we presently understand it was not a concept in circulation until the 19th century, so its absence in earlier translations of the Bible is unsurprising on any account. 

Regarding the Biblical passages more directly, things get more complicated still. Restricting the biblical condemnation to merely pederasty is, however, untenable. Let's discuss the Greek conglomerate term arsenokoitoi, which seems to be the subject of the  article. Arsenokoitoi is a piece of Hebrew-Greek slang which appears for the first time in Paul's writings. It is derived from the Greek roots arsen (bed) and koite (male). A literal rendition of the word would appear to mean "one who goes to bed with males." The word appears to be derived from the wording of the Septuagint's rendering of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. For instance, take the text of Leviticus 20:13: kai hos an koimēthē meta arsenos koitēn gynaikos bdelygma epoiēsan amphoteroi thanatousthōsan. The use of this particular cognate phrase is a clear callback to the Levitical Holiness Code, which does not constrain its condemnation to pederasty. To isolate the usage of the word from its clear referent in Leviticus would be to commit a grievous hermeneutical error, since Paul's reliance on the Old Testament and familiarity with the Mosaic law are well known. 

Consider also the following, which I found from a useful collection of scholarly sources on the interpretation of this Greek word::

If Paul intended to address pederasty, he did so in a most broad and imprecise way, at the expense of more clear and precise word choices. Indeed as one scholar has noted, "‘It is significant that of all the terms available in the Greek language, Paul chose a compound from the Septuagint that in the broadest sense described men lying with men as they would lie with women." (Malick, David ‘The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9’, Bibliotheca Sacra (150.600.484), 1996.)

With regard to Paul's opinions on female homoeroticism, see the following. The picture is not much prettier. 

The probative value of the medieval traditions which Dr. Oxford has studied cannot override the textual analysis to which we have access. Perhaps he addresses concerns such as these in his book, but at present I find the article unconvincing. 

I'll give it a read, thanks. 

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On 8/24/2021 at 5:14 PM, ttribe said:

Using such metaphors in today's climate is, at best, unwise.  There is a growing body of (well-armed) fringe literalists (e.g. DezNat) who are waiting with bated breath for just this kind of rhetoric.

As one wag observed, they will need a few F-15s and nukes…..and a whole bunch of Abram tanks, among other things. Oh, and some helicopters, drones, and railroads. 

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On 8/24/2021 at 11:53 PM, esodije said:

I remember being told by multiple BYU administrators when I was a freshman there (1977-78) that BYU would never have a medical school or very many government contracts for graduate-level research, simply because the church didn't want the feds dictating standards or policies concerning student/faculty conduct and holding funding over its head. 

…and because of the incredible costs of those kinds of programs…

Medical schools are very expensive to establish and to maintain.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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15 hours ago, Duncan said:

gun collectors, I mean you never know who is out there. If they can't tell the difference metaphorical and literal, maybe they won't be so picky when it comes to hurting someone

So you think some malevolent “gun collector” who is out to hurt or kill somebody, one who presumably has a diverse arsenal at his disposal (he is, after all, a “gun collector”) is going to choose the most out-dated, least effective, least efficient,  presumably the oldest and least reliable piece in his collection to do his dirty work? 
 

😂 😆 😝 

Reason has been stretched so far in this thread that it is on the verge of snapping. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What an eye opener! But it kind of ruins the aversion therapy narrative for the haters whose delight it is to paint all things related to the Church in the most negative light possible. Oh wait! I just realized that verifiable fact based corrections are no longer of any significance nor import in this day and age. So never mind,  because in spite of a knowledge of the actual facts we’re going to continue to hear, ad nauseam, about the Church leader’s official sponsorship of hundreds of cruel and “barbaric” conversion therapy sessions, that were forced on the innocent, right up until the great angel blows the final horn.

Edited by teddyaware
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On 8/23/2021 at 9:47 PM, Bob Crockett said:

I would never send my kids to an unaccredited school.  Can't transfer or go to grad school.  We are looking at the end of BYU.  

BYU will maintain its accreditation, and I doubt that will take place with any kicking and screaming.  Recall the Church and polygyny......

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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I had to chuckle at this. The same stuff was being advocated in teacher training when I received my music education degree in 1970. The school district where I spent most of my career actually built schools based on this model. No walls, free ranging kids, fluid curricula, student-directed learning, etc. That model proved disastrous. I taught elementary orchestra in the library pod with open classrooms all around me! Utter chaos, but some folks sang it’s praises. Some folks alway do. The building was retrofitted later and finally demolished several years ago. 

The Three Pillars of Modern American Education, Doctoral Dissertation by Bernardo Gui.

1. Fear of lawsuits 

2. The quest for federal funding

3. The eternally chaotic search for the perfect program

4. Acronyms

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23 hours ago, Duncan said:

20 years ago the threats or problems for the Church came from without, I remember as do other when the Southern baptists came to Utah to convert them. Now, forget other churches, it's all these people that are in or came from within the church that are the big issues-Mormon leaks had that chart with "issues and ideas leading people away from the Gospel" and they had mentioned three people, John Dehlin, Robert Norman and Denver Snuffer. Mind you Robert Norman was probably a blip on the radar screen and certaintly you could add others like the CES letter fellow, but regardless all former members. None of the "issues and ideas" were other churches, it's all stuff that came from within.

The most virulent critics of the Church on this board 20 years ago were almost all from other religions. Now those are non-existent, having been replaced by our fellow Saints. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:
Quote

I had to chuckle at this. The same stuff was being advocated in teacher training when I received my music education degree in 1970. The school district where I spent most of my career actually built schools based on this model. No walls, free ranging kids, fluid curricula, student-directed learning, etc. That model proved disastrous. I taught elementary orchestra in the library pod with open classrooms all around me! Utter chaos, but some folks sang it’s praises. Some folks alway do. The building was retrofitted later and finally demolished several years ago. 

The Three Pillars of Modern American Education, Doctoral Dissertation by Bernardo Gui.

1. Fear of lawsuits 

2. The quest for federal funding

3. The eternally chaotic search for the perfect program

4. Acronyms

5. Use of catchwords like "paradigm" and "holistic."

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18 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

 

Yeah, I’m not too worried about the future of the church youth. When I look at the responses of our rising generation of members to the issue, they really do seem to understand and act accordingly.

The kids are gonna be alright.

Kids are not always right. 

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18 hours ago, california boy said:

Really?  How about God has revealed that sex within all legal marriages is acceptable.  Or God has revealed that marriage between same sex couples is a sin.

Are you aware of any revelation modern or ancient that defines marriage as anything other than between men and women? 

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15 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

First- I don't believe that any reasonable person would be ok with anyone calling people to arms to fight against the church. Nor should they be.

Sure. Urging people to take up literal arms in a literal unprovoked fight against the church would be no bueno.

But urging people to take up metaphorical arms in a fight of words and ideas against the church seems perfectly fine. 

 

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Second- I have ZERO desire to "rally troops" to "fight". I have no problem with arguing though ;) 

Excellent! Let's shoot it out and see who's left standing. ;) 

Note: I was going to include a trigger warning about this post containing metaphors relating to firearms, but I couldn't see how I could do so in good conscious seeing as how the "trigger" part of a trigger warning is, itself, a gun reference. 

 

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SMAC is out of his ever loving mind but you seem more reasonable. Just wrong.

Wrong about what, specifically?

 

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For the record, I'm also opposed to politicians (on any side) urging people to violent action, even if it is hyperbole. IMO it is classless for politicians to do it. But it is even worse for a "man of God" to do it. But you're good with it...so ... cool, cool, cool.

I'm good with what, exactly? Urging people to violent action? Assuming we're talking about unjustified violent action, where have I ever said that?

It sounds like you're saying Elder Holland was urging people to violent action. Is that correct? Do you really believe that?

 

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16 hours ago, Duncan said:

ever go to Duchesne Utah?!

Nope. Why? Is there some kind of secret enclave of flintlock musket / black powder aficionados living there that I never knew about? If so, maybe I should visit.

 

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15 hours ago, ttribe said:

I have been taken to task a number of times for using memes, and yet...no one has anything to say to Spencer. 

I don't have a problem with memes, per se, it's just that the overwhelming majority of them aren't that funny.

The one with Morpheus was pretty good though. ;) 

 

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8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mere facts, mate. Why should they matter?

Wiki has a very well sourced article (unlike Fair’s). Included was a link to this project:

Quote

I think at about the time that I came out to my seminary teacher I had just read Spencer W. Kimball’s book, The Miracle of Forgiveness. It had a chapter in it called I think, “Crime Against Nature”, and it described in very certain terms the evilness and sinfulness of my condition. He used awful words to describe me and my feelings. He stated that my desires were pugnant, evil, disgusting, vial, malicious, and pernicious. Well, I started doing counseling with my bishop and stake president. It was summer and school was out so they told me that I needed to go down to BYU for this program that would help me to become heterosexual. Of course, I jumped at the chance. They told me and had taught me that heterosexual was the only way to be–I wasn’t, so I wanted to become such. I’m like 15 years old, and I didn’t want my parents to know so they arranged it to look like I was going down for some genealogy research camp. I stayed at the dorms on campus and was supposed to go immediately in and meet with the receptionist, fill out the papers, release forms, etc. I sat down and they kind of explained to me what was going to go on, and I was horrified by the whole prospect of what I found out was going to be vomiting-aversion therapy.

They explained to me that they would place a heparin lock in my wrist and hook an I.V. up to that, and I would be put in a room alone with a phlethesmograph on my penis that would measure my physical arousal so that when I got an erection they would know. Then they started showing me gay pornography. I don’t remember if there were films or not, but I do remember stills. I was supposed to go through a stack of photos of nude men and come up with men that I thought were attractive.

https://www.lds-mormon.com/legacies.shtml/
 


Not sure if facts matter to y’all or not. 

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The 24% number was the number of survey respondents (7,625 survey responses from a population of 31,000+ students), not the number of students who identified as LGBTQ.

Of those 7,625 respondents, 996 indicated a "sexual orientation other than 'strictly heterosexual,'" which would only be 13% of those who completed the survey.

I haven't looked at the actual study, but even 13% seems high to me. I suspect there is some self-selection bias going on.

 

Edited by Amulek
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17 hours ago, ttribe said:

[Note to self next time smac97 accuses anyone of engaging in juvenile, bad faith discussions, link back to this page.]

Keeping track again? Mental note: refer to this page next time tribe brings out his little black book. 😉

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27 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Hah hah.  How true. I think those are words with little meaning used to impress.  Like 'narrative'.   

Stakeholder, “research shows…”, having a conversation about,” best practices, and more. 
 

Studies show that all the above are subsections of the Three Pillars: lawsuits, federal bucks, perfect programs.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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47 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Wiki has a very well sourced article (unlike Fair’s). Included was a link to this project:

https://www.lds-mormon.com/legacies.shtml/
 


Not sure if facts matter to y’all or not. 

Absolutely not. We don’t need no stinking facts!
 

From your source: “I should also say that to my knowledge, the church no longer condones these aversion therapy activities.”

Is that a fact? Rhetorical question. 

The FAIR article is very well sourced.  Not sure if sources matter to y’all or not. 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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