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Leaked U.K. Attendance Numbers Show Mass Defections and Declining Attendance Prior to Pandemic


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On 9/3/2021 at 12:02 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I think the skills of administration/management of a ward are often overlooked when choosing leaders. I've known some of the most amazing men, gentle, kind, loving, a friend to everyone, who were just terrible leaders. They couldn't run a meeting. Couldn't organize a potluck let alone an organization full of auxiliaries and volunteers. In some cases they were wise enough to choose counselors who were strong where they were weak, but other times, not so much. When any organization is mismanaged, morale suffers as people get frustrated, no matter how likeable the Bishop/SP may be. 

Of course, on the other hand you have those who are very efficient managers but lack any kind of personal touch with the members. Both skills are needed but I rarely hear anyone extol the virtues of good management and administration. In fact, I often hear administration denigrated in favor of ministering as if a ward, or leader couldn't be both.

Sorry-that's always been a little pet peeve of mine :) 

Hence my plan to split the calling of Bishop into two and have the Bishop continue in his role as judge, leader of youth, counselor, and temporal welfare leader (the kind person) and then have a separate presiding High Priest who runs the Ward Council, dealing with a lot of the callings, and the administration. In a small ward with limited numbers of members you can keep the two roles combined.

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Hence my plan to split the calling of Bishop into two and have the Bishop continue in his role as judge, leader of youth, counselor, and temporal welfare leader (the kind person) and then have a separate presiding High Priest who runs the Ward Council, dealing with a lot of the callings, and the administration. In a small ward with limited numbers of members you can keep the two roles combined.

In my last ward, I wonder which bishop would be the one signalling politics from the pulpit and which would be the other bishop signalling politics from the pulpit.

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1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Nah, I don't buy it. You provided a source and declared that it gave "accurate information." @SteveO asked how the source is getting their information. You responded with the following: 

You mean to tell me you were just referring to some third-party source rather than the one you provided and about which SteveO inquired? 

Here is the original post from 2Bize who was replying to me and he posted the link to fuller consideration which is the link I believe y’all are referring to

. He is the one who said it provides accurate data not me.  I can’t believe you can’t see that.
 

 

   On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 AM,  secondclasscitizensaid: 

I think from here on out all discussion about membership and attendance will be complete speculation. I remember when the church was proud of the “numbers” and would broadcast them over the pulpit as a way of demonstrating unstoppable growth. Now we get crickets. I bet if we were doing as well as we have at least in my lifetime all the good stuff would be public. A leak will surely come along some day and when it does it will be bad. Hide dwindling numbers long enough the losses become shocking when they are revealed.

Expand  

I agree.  As the numbers started to show real decline in growth rate, the church stopped publishing the numbers that had always been available at the April conference.  The church had the Kirton McKonkie law firm reach out to all of the websites that were providing membership data for them to cease and desist. Most did comply except one, which still provides accurate data:

https://www.fullerconsideration.com

Edited by secondclasscitizen
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15 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Here is the original post from 2Bize who was replying to me and he posted the link to fuller consideration which is the link I believe y’all are referring to

. He is the one who said it provides accurate data not me.  I can’t believe you can’t see that.
 

 

   On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 AM,  secondclasscitizensaid: 

I think from here on out all discussion about membership and attendance will be complete speculation. I remember when the church was proud of the “numbers” and would broadcast them over the pulpit as a way of demonstrating unstoppable growth. Now we get crickets. I bet if we were doing as well as we have at least in my lifetime all the good stuff would be public. A leak will surely come along some day and when it does it will be bad. Hide dwindling numbers long enough the losses become shocking when they are revealed.

Expand  

I agree.  As the numbers started to show real decline in growth rate, the church stopped publishing the numbers that had always been available at the April conference.  The church had the Kirton McKonkie law firm reach out to all of the websites that were providing membership data for them to cease and desist. Most did comply except one, which still provides accurate data:

https://www.fullerconsideration.com

You are right. I apologize. 

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On 9/6/2021 at 5:26 PM, secondclasscitizen said:

Here is the original post from 2Bize who was replying to me and he posted the link to fuller consideration which is the link I believe y’all are referring to

. He is the one who said it provides accurate data not me.  I can’t believe you can’t see that.
 

 

   On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 AM,  secondclasscitizensaid: 

I think from here on out all discussion about membership and attendance will be complete speculation. I remember when the church was proud of the “numbers” and would broadcast them over the pulpit as a way of demonstrating unstoppable growth. Now we get crickets. I bet if we were doing as well as we have at least in my lifetime all the good stuff would be public. A leak will surely come along some day and when it does it will be bad. Hide dwindling numbers long enough the losses become shocking when they are revealed.

Expand  

I agree.  As the numbers started to show real decline in growth rate, the church stopped publishing the numbers that had always been available at the April conference.  The church had the Kirton McKonkie law firm reach out to all of the websites that were providing membership data for them to cease and desist. Most did comply except one, which still provides accurate data:

https://www.fullerconsideration.com

Thanks for that website!

I have been thinking about that issue of discerning church growth for a while. I hope the data’s researchers provide an update soon.

 

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On 9/3/2021 at 9:42 AM, mfbukowski said:

I don't get it

Every post you make makes up negative arguments against the church, and now this "breaks your heart?"

Um…because people’s relationship to the church is complex?

You can’t love a church and practice maximum devotion to its tenants for years without feeling a degree of sorrow for its falling apart.

-At least I can’t.

The joy of ‘being right’ is pretty bittersweet when the political/societal actors you’ve warned goes off and decides to implode regardless of one’s attempts to help it.

 

I know, I know…the whole ‘steadying the ark’ story, but I sometimes wonder if we’ve somehow misunderstood or misapplied that story- that what we in fact needed was more Eugene England’s, and more Lowry Nelson’s, not at all fewer or farther between.

No. Relationships are a lot more complex than that, and I gotta wonder how that mixture of vindication and bitter sorrow/regret isn’t better comprehended here, a forum all about the discourse of saints ‘n sinners.

Nobody likes seeing a person/entity in the process of destroying itself mate.

Edited by Canadiandude
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On 9/5/2021 at 11:28 AM, 2BizE said:

I agree.  As the numbers started to show real decline in growth rate, the church stopped publishing the numbers that had always been available at the April conference.  The church had the Kirton McKonkie law firm reach out to all of the websites that were providing membership data for them to cease and desist. Most did comply except one, which still provides accurate data:

https://www.fullerconsideration.com

Appreciate this link mate. Was looking for something like this!

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7 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

Um…because people’s relationship to the church is complex?

You can’t love a church and practice maximum devotion to its tenants for years without feeling a degree of sorrow for its falling apart.

-At least I can’t.

The joy of ‘being right’ is pretty bittersweet when the political/societal actors you’ve warned goes off and decides to implode regardless of one’s attempts to help it.

 

I know, I know…the whole ‘steadying the ark’ story, but I sometimes wonder if we’ve somehow misunderstood or misapplied that story- that what we in fact needed was more Eugene England’s, and more Lowry Nelson’s, not at all fewer or farther between.

No. Relationships are a lot more complex than that, and I gotta wonder how that mixture of vindication and bitter sorrow/regret isn’t better comprehended here, a forum all about the discourse of saints ‘n sinners.

Nobody likes seeing a person/entity in the process of destroying itself mate.

I don't know any of these people, nor do I understand the emotions.

I left Catholicism over 40 years ago because it did not, imo, have a philosophically justifiable base.

On the other hand I think that the way I understand the LDS church has a rich Pragmatic base

There were no emotions involved.

Heavy spiritual experiences yes, wistfully missing Catholicism no.

Though I do enjoy the symbology of a great Tridentine mass on occasion, Gregorian chant and all that.

"Bitter sorrow"?

For what? It's about philosophy for me, Scholasticism just doesn't work in the 21st century.

Edited by mfbukowski
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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know any of these people, nor do I understand the emotions.


  ~

"Bitter sorrow"?

For what? It's about philosophy for me, Scholasticism just doesn't work in the 21st century.

I believe the paragraphs you’ve referenced already contain my reasoning, which you have curiously chosen to dodge.

I’m not in the habit of having to repeat myself, and it would seem that there is not enough good faith on the matter regardless. 
 

So…Pass.

Edited by Canadiandude
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46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

"Spiritual experiences" are emotional.  They are experienced through our feelings.

You keeping saying that, and our experiences with it don't cease to conflict with your assessment. 

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

"Spiritual experiences" are emotional.  They are experienced through our feelings.

Duh.

Of course they are

They are supposed to be, what survival value do emotions give us?

Heard of "morals"??? 

Give me scientific evidence that we should not go around murdering people.

You can't 

We have been over this a thousand times. Scriptures are stories, literal or not, which teach MORALS, not history, not science.

Joining a church is more like getting married than anything else.

You don't marry someone based on their shoe size

(Irrelevant "facts")

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

You keeping saying that, and our experiences with it don't cease to conflict with your assessment. 

Drives me nuts! 

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1 hour ago, Canadiandude said:

I believe the paragraphs you’ve referenced already contain my reasoning, which you have curiously chosen to dodge.

I’m not in the habit of having to repeat myself, and it would seem that there is not enough good faith on the matter regardless. 
 

So…Pass.

Your decision.

None of your previous remarks were addressed to me that I recall.

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1 hour ago, Canadiandude said:

I’m not in the habit of having to repeat myself,

Then you will be repeating this post often, save it for later.

I have been repeating myself for 10 years because I have a message that needs to get out

If your message doesn't need to get out, suit yourself 

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15 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

Um…because people’s relationship to the church is complex?

You can’t love a church and practice maximum devotion to its tenants for years without feeling a degree of sorrow for its falling apart.

-At least I can’t.

The joy of ‘being right’ is pretty bittersweet when the political/societal actors you’ve warned goes off and decides to implode regardless of one’s attempts to help it.

 

I know, I know…the whole ‘steadying the ark’ story, but I sometimes wonder if we’ve somehow misunderstood or misapplied that story- that what we in fact needed was more Eugene England’s, and more Lowry Nelson’s, not at all fewer or farther between.

No. Relationships are a lot more complex than that, and I gotta wonder how that mixture of vindication and bitter sorrow/regret isn’t better comprehended here, a forum all about the discourse of saints ‘n sinners.

Nobody likes seeing a person/entity in the process of destroying itself mate.

Sounds like emotions to me.

See above

 

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

"Spiritual experiences" are emotional.  They are experienced through our feelings.

Do your beliefs bring you joy, hope, peace and a deep sense of meaning and purpose to your life? Or do your beliefs make you feel gloomy, hopeless and dejected? I ask in all sincerity because I’m genuinely interested to know if unbelief can be conducive to genuine human happiness in the same way that faith in God often brings a sense of joy to believers. And if your unbelief does indeed bring you a true sense of happiness, is the reason why you so avidly participate on this board because you want to help others experience the same joy you experience in your unbelief? This inquiring mind very much wants to know? 

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59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Duh.

Of course they are

Didn't you say they were not emotional?

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

They are supposed to be, what survival value do emotions give us?

Yep.

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Heard of "morals"??? 

Of course.

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Give me scientific evidence that we should not go around murdering people.

I can give you social scientific reasons.

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You can't 

See above.

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We have been over this a thousand times. Scriptures are stories, literal or not, which teach MORALS, not history, not science.

Right. So I can find my truth through other mythical sources even if  they conflict with yours.

59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Joining a church is more like getting married than anything else.

You don't marry someone based on their shoe size

(Irrelevant "facts")

Ok. look I get your approach.  You just seem to refuse the fact that using it leads to thousands of different and often conflicting truths.  Yours is no more valid than mine or anyone else's.

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16 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

Thanks for that website!

I have been thinking about that issue of discerning church growth for a while. I hope the data’s researchers provide an update soon.

 

The new name information is wrong, and that is easily verified by looking up your own info, and your spouse's if you are male.

There is no way to verify the info sources

I am not questioning the downward trend, just this site's data and the value of it.

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30 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Do your beliefs bring you joy, hope, peace and a deep sense of meaning and purpose to your life? Or do your beliefs make you feel gloomy, hopeless and dejected? I ask in all sincerity because I’m genuinely interested to know if unbelief can be conducive to genuine human happiness in the same way that faith in God often brings a sense of joy to believers. And if your unbelief does indeed bring you a true sense of happiness, is the reason why you so avidly participate on this board because you want to help others experience the same joy you experience in your unbelief? This inquiring mind very much wants to know? 

I am happier now than I ever was as an active TBM.  I have purpose and meaning and constantly seek to improve it as I learn more and explore without the baggage of thinking I know what some God says and thinking I have the truth.  I am happy being uncertain and not always wondering if I measure up to some made up standard that someone thinks God is telling them. I hope there is more than just this life and something beyond but I do not know and neither do you or anyone else. I participate on this board for entertainment mostly because I like discussing such things and am always open to learning or even being wrong and persuaded to something else.  Why do you participate on this board.  Does your over the top arrogant certainty bring you happiness and purpose? Does operating in a way that approaches even your fellow saints as not knowing as much as you bring you peace?  What is your goal in posting here?  Since you asked me I thought I would ask you.

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1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Ok. look I get your approach.  You just seem to refuse the fact that using it leads to thousands of different and often conflicting truths.  Yours is no more valid than mine or anyone else's.

Read the Rorty quote below.

There is no "reality" beyond our perceptions, even if we pool our perceptions, all we get is a paradigm that "works" until new ways of perceiving come along.

EVERYTHING is social science, all paradigms, including "hard" science must be interpreted by a human brain

I the chair you are sitting in, in a physics context more space than atoms? 

Yes

By mixing paradigms you might ask yourself then, why you don't fall through it to the center of the earth?

But of course the paradigm only works in a physics context

You keep mixing contexts (paradigms), facts vs emotions, yet both are ALWAYS acting together

Scripture is like social science, the  "facts" include human factors like feelings

See religion as social science, the data is about what people believe on their perspective and perceptions, and values, not hard data, and the value they perceive in their beliefs.

It's emotions, and humans cannot divorce themselves from emotion, and interpretation through emotion, unless they want to.

But then they are divorcing themselves from human reality AS WE KNOW IT in "real life".

We cannot get outside our skin to view things "as they are", all we know is what humans CAN know, processed through a human brain

Period.

Tell me something human can't know

Please

You will be famous forever 

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25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am happier now than I ever was as an active TBM.  I have purpose and meaning and constantly seek to improve it as I learn more and explore without the baggage of thinking I know what some God says and thinking I have the truth.  I am happy being uncertain and not always wondering if I measure up to some made up standard that someone thinks God is telling them. I hope there is more than just this life and something beyond but I do not know and neither do you or anyone else. I participate on this board for entertainment mostly because I like discussing such things and am always open to learning or even being wrong and persuaded to something else.  Why do you participate on this board.  Does your over the top arrogant certainty bring you happiness and purpose? Does operating in a way that approaches even your fellow saints as not knowing as much as you bring you peace?  What is your goal in posting here?  Since you asked me I thought I would ask you.

Good question. Let me answer for me.

We agree on almost every point except I have had religious experiences that I cannot question.

I'm not saying you haven't

It's all interpretation, that's the only difference. But without it, there is nothing 

Edited by mfbukowski
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