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Burkas, modesty rhetoric and where do we go from here


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1 hour ago, Mike Drop said:

I think what rodheadlee is trying to convey is western men have gone above and beyond men of other countries such as Afghanistan, China, North Korea and African countries when it comes to protecting women  on a personal level and through pro women legislation. Western men should be seen as heroes for fighting for the rights of women around the world. 

Are there a lot of men fighting for the rights of women around the world?  Not arguing with you or disparaging those men who do fight for such things, just looking for some references to support the claim that western men are more pro women than all the other men.

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On 8/31/2021 at 6:30 AM, BlueDreams said:

This is very different the rodheadlee’s inferences with “bedroom eyes” and other things that suggest signs of sexual flirting or openness. This one’s more so showing signs of victimhood through being more submissive and thus less likely to talk or fight back. Basically predators are looking for prey: people deemed weaker or more vulnerable in some way. 
 

though I’d also point out this research noted has one big gaping flaw: it’s only focused on violent psychopaths who got convicted of sexual assault. Those are unfortunately the minority of sexual assault cases (as in a small sliver of the whole). Most perpetrators do not fit this description. There’s more perpetration by people who don’t name what they did as sexual assault, but it fits the def. Men who repeatedly get away with this and may more likely hold beliefs that perpetuate their assumptions of women really being willing to some degree in the end or because she does A she’s really open to B…even if she made it clear in the beginning she most certainly wasn’t. I have actually talked to people who’ve assaulted. And due to my line of work, I’ve gotten the sliver that  are deemed marital rape. I’ve also worked with victims of sexual assault. I’ve read a heck of a lot of research on this too. Which makes me pretty comfortable saying rodheadlee is hitting some serious foul balls on this one. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

 

Serious question, how do those people (referenced in the bolded part) choose their victims. 

Is it random chance?

Are certain people more vulnerable than others?

Is there anything  potential victims protect can do to protect themselves?

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1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Serious question, how do those people (referenced in the bolded part) choose their victims. 

Is it random chance?

Are certain people more vulnerable than others?

Is there anything  potential victims protect can do to protect themselves?

Marital rape/sexual coercion is very different. It’s more a play of mental health or cultural factors around sex that lead to a singular or series of bad decisions. On the singular accounts of marital rape, I honestly can’t think of a solid way victims could have avoided it. It wasn’t their decision. On the series, it’s either a pattern of abuse, most often emotion, that may likely entail pressure or emotional forms of punishment to get sex. These can be as lightweight as stonewalling and getting excessively angry/emotional whenever she says she isn’t in the mood. This slowly erodes “no” as an option in the relationship around sex. The woman will agree to sex, but more and more so she can avoid the fight or problems for if she doesn’t and less because she wants to. Often this pattern, for the “good guys” in the relationship isn’t recognized as a problem till it’s laid bare in therapy and they’re usually horrified. Some times they still continue to act like spoiled idiots and continue to vent about their “needs,” as if they’ll die without sex. The only thing a woman could have done was to speak up about the emotional cost of what’s happening to her. But usually this is a cultural dance that has to be broken. If it’s unintentionally emotional coercion I can usually be broken by the man learning to listen and taking accountability for managing his sexual desires, becoming less entitled to her body. I work to support the woman being open and a little more assertive as to how she’s actually feeling and what she needs. That’s usually the opposite of what both of them learned growing up. 
 

If the abusive behavior is a common emotional response by the husband who doesn’t think it’s a problem, we’ve got a bigger problem. It may continue, it may take a lot of work for him to accept and maintain acceptance that he’s been abusive, and it may be best for them to end up divorcing in the end if his pattern seems fixed. 
 

When it’s single people dating. Most women already practice trying to avoid certain relationships for this exact reason. That’s why we get advice on clipping this or that behavior, wearing this or that outfit, doing this or that activity etc. Many carry things like bear mace or keys while walking. Other try to look busy on the phone. 
but most often it’s acquaintances, such as a date of a friend of a friend, that’s a problem. I can’t think of a single sure-fire thing a woman could do to avoid assault. I could think of so many more things a man could do to reduce the behaviors and what we can do to shift cultural norms around male entitlement, appropriate behaviors, self-mastery, frank lessons on consent and seeking it, greater gender parity, etc. Because the greater equity, knowledge, stability, and reduction of social violence in society are what are tied more with a reduction in sexual violence. And an individual woman really can’t modify her behaviors or dress to change that. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

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14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the life of me I don't understand why Rod would say such a thing to Tacenda when she shared traumatic experiences. It was a terrible thing to say, and I hope people continue to downvote it. (I rarely rarely use downvote, but this deserved it)

Good grief. That was awful.

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39 minutes ago, Chum said:

Good grief. That was awful.

I hope Rod gets back on and we can discuss his reaction because it must mean something more and most of us know what a good guy he is so I'd love for him to be able to speak up. Maybe it's a reaction that men are getting piled on possibly?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's a real problem in many of our lives. Just yesterday there was a near kidnapping victim in Ogden that was able to get away. She was 10 I believe. They caught the guy and he admitted that his intent was to sexually abuse her.

So it does sound like we are close to a Taliban world unless we don't figure something out soon. And many women are speaking out more now so there's the silence that may make people like Rod think it's not as bad as there. A lot goes unseen and in the past a child was suppose to be seen and not heard. 

ETA: I need to add that one out of three females is abused sexually in the US.  Now need to find the statistic for Afghanistan. Of course it might not be accurate, just as ours because they probably won't speak out either.

 

Edited by Tacenda
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28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So it does sound like we are close to a Taliban world unless we don't figure something out soon.

I think this is an way overstatement. It may feel that way at times especially if one has personal experiences that have led to feeling unsafe, but in Afghanistan we are hearing of women who are anticipating getting killed soon because they went to school or wore western clothing or other cultural taboos for the Taliban leaders.  In no way does the American culture as a whole approach that level.  We are not close to requiring women only being allowed in public if with a man or banned from driving cars or wearing burkas. 
 

In order to change for the better we need to be realistic in our criticisms. Overstatements will most likely result in defensiveness and not understanding. 
 

Quote

hope Rod gets back on and we can discuss his reaction because it must mean something more and most of us know what a good guy he is so I'd love for him to be able to speak up. Maybe it's a reaction that men are getting piled on possibly?

I think this is likely what happened. I don’t think Rod was intending to give the message he sent. I think (based on past comments by Rod) it more likely he was trying to say there are a lot of men who try hard to make the world a better, safer place for all, including women and that healthy relationships between men and women are not one sided experiences, women typically are actively involved in engaging with men…but I think he slipped into the box, by which I mean we start responding with habitual answers, defensively without really thinking of the implications of what we are saying because we aren’t paying close enough attention to context. 
 

In a general discussion about sexual relationships between men and women, recognizing that women are active participants is realistic.  But in a discussion about predatory behaviours such as sexual assault, the implication of speaking of women who have been victimized (or men for that matter) as active participants takes on a very, very different meaning. 

Edited by Calm
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On 8/30/2021 at 10:18 PM, rodheadlee said:

Why are you all taking the worse case scenario from my meager words? I give up. NO ONE SHOULD BE ASSAULTED. I've suppose you never heard the term Shake Your Money Maker or bedroom eyes. My wife could wear a sheet and look like a Motab member or she could wear the same sheet and look like a sex symbol ready for a night in the rack.

I'll just shut up now. 

The best thing you've said on this thread ;) 

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7 hours ago, bluebell said:

Are there a lot of men fighting for the rights of women around the world?  Not arguing with you or disparaging those men who do fight for such things, just looking for some references to support the claim that western men are more pro women than all the other men.

I hesitate to chime in here, but I think Mike Drop (rodheadlee's sock puppet?) is referring to the fact that there are laws in western countries that enforce women's rights, while the governments in many non-western countries laugh heartily about the subject. This would seem to suggest that there is majority support, at least, for women's rights, since in most legislatures, even in western countries, men predominate. And thus it might be appropriate to give western men some credit.

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I hope Rod gets back on and we can discuss his reaction because it must mean something more and most of us know what a good guy he is so I'd love for him to be able to speak up. Maybe it's a reaction that men are getting piled on possibly?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's a real problem in many of our lives. Just yesterday there was a near kidnapping victim in Ogden that was able to get away. She was 10 I believe. They caught the guy and he admitted that his intent was to sexually abuse her.

So it does sound like we are close to a Taliban world unless we don't figure something out soon. And many women are speaking out more now so there's the silence that may make people like Rod think it's not as bad as there. A lot goes unseen and in the past a child was suppose to be seen and not heard. 

ETA: I need to add that one out of three females is abused sexually in the US.  Now need to find the statistic for Afghanistan. Of course it might not be accurate, just as ours because they probably won't speak out either.

 

Quoting myself, shouldn't say we are even close to Taliban treatment. Reading up on it, I found Afghanistan has the highest domestic abuse in the world. But wonder about stranger, or non spouse abuse. And how much is sexual? What made me wonder in the first place is looking at the Quran, it frowns on abusing women. But it is more a culture thing that can be the problem. Also, many women have scars that no one can see that have been sexually abused in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violenceAccording to HRW 2013 report, Afghanistan has one of the highest incidence rates of domestic violence in the world. Domestic violence is so common that 85 per cent of women admit to experiencing it. 60% of all women report being victims of multiple forms of serial violence.[69] Afghanistan is the only country in which the female suicide rate (at 80%) is higher than that of males.[70] Psychologists attribute this to an endless cycle of domestic violence and poverty.[71]

 

Edited by Tacenda
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32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But wonder about stranger, or non spouse abuse

Unlikely to get good statistics for sexual assault for a number of reasons…using wiki as preoccupied today and don’t want to do in depth research.  My guess is stranger/nonspouse abuse is high due to low risks to the predators.
 

Quote

Rape in Afghanistan is a crime which can be legally prosecuted, but in practice it is very rarely reported, because of the immense risks that women face if they report it. Rape victims in the country face a double risk of being subjected to violence: on one hand they can become victims of honor killingsperpetrated by their families, and on the other hand they can be victimized by the laws of the country. Women also undertake many smaller personal risks to their social status and daily life:[6] they can be charged with adultery, a crime that can be punishable by death. Furthermore, they can be forced by their families to marry their rapist which is especially likely if the woman becomes pregnant.[7]

Rape victims in Afghanistan are more stigmatized than the rapists. Women who are raped can be and often are punished, while their male counterparts rarely face jail time when accused of rape. Women are often punished as "fornicators" under the zina, the part of Islamic law that has to do with unlawful sexual intercourse.[8] Women are often persuaded to marry their rapist in hopes of restoring honor to her family. This is also done so the rapist can avoid facing charges. Thus putting women in the, very often dangerous, position of either marrying the man who raped and attacked them or facing honor crimes, possibly murder, at the hands of their own family members.[9]

In 2012, Afghanistan recorded 240 cases of honor killings and 160 cases of rape, but the number for both honor killings and rapes is estimated to be much higher and unreported, especially in the more rural areas.

In 2013, Afghanistan made international news in regard to the story of a woman who was raped by a man, jailed for adultery, gave birth to a child in jail, and was then subsequently pardoned by Afghanistan president Hamid Karzai, as international interest and outrage grew. And in the end of her whole ordeal, societal pressure and her family's pressure she was forced to marry the man who raped her.[10] In 2013, in eastern Ghazni, a man attacked a woman and attempted to rape her, and as a result the relatives of the woman killed both the woman and the man in an honor killing. In Afghanistan, crimes such as adultery, rape and trafficking are often conflated with each other, and it is generally not acceptable for a woman and a man to be alone together (unless married or related), and if this happens the response can be very violent:[11] an Afghan medical doctor and his female patient were attacked by an angry mob who threw stones at them after the two were discovered in his private examining room without a chaperon. Recently, the security forces have been also alleged to rape children in the country.[12]

 

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Unlikely to get good statistics for sexual assault for a number of reasons…using wiki as preoccupied today and don’t want to do in depth research. 
 

 

Forgot about this. Thanks for the time you took to straighten me out.

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I need to add that one out of three females is abused sexually in the US.  Now need to find the statistic for Afghanistan. Of course it might not be accurate, just as ours because they probably won't speak out either.

I'd put it at least 2 in 3 given what I hear first hand.

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just yesterday there was a near kidnapping victim in Ogden that was able to get away. She was 10 I believe. They caught the guy and he admitted that his intent was to sexually abuse her.

I strongly feel this needs to be treated as separate and apart because stranger kidnappings are extremely rare while men mistreating women is a fairly routine occurrence. Men looking to distance themselves from that reality can quite eagerly try to lump unlike-things together, in order to muddy the waters.

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10 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

I think what rodheadlee is trying to convey is western men have gone above and beyond men of other countries such as Afghanistan, China, North Korea and African countries when it comes to protecting women  on a personal level and through pro women legislation. Western men should be seen as heroes for fighting for the rights of women around the world. 

LOL!

Ummmm.....no.

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On 8/30/2021 at 11:18 PM, rodheadlee said:

Why are you all taking the worse case scenario from my meager words? I give up. NO ONE SHOULD BE ASSAULTED. I've suppose you never heard the term Shake Your Money Maker or bedroom eyes. My wife could wear a sheet and look like a Motab member or she could wear the same sheet and look like a sex symbol ready for a night in the rack.

I'll just shut up now. 

I understand what you’re trying to explain rodheadlee. I also understand you don’t think anyone should be assaulted, man or woman. I think many Americans forget how good we have it here. In other countries women are being stoned to death. In Yemen, women are considered half a witness. In India, road safety rules don’t apply to women. In Saudi Arabia and Morocco, rape victims can be charged with a crime. In 32 countries a woman needs her husband’s permission to apply for a passport. In Israel, a woman needs her husband’s permission to get a divorce. In Nigeria, a husband can hit his wife under section 55 of the penal code to correct her. In Guinea, Sierra Leone, Gambia, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Sudan and Egypt, female genital mutilation is still being practiced. Hundreds of laws still exist that worldwide that discriminate against women. Western society and thankfully western men are leading the way in fighting for equality for all women. Many of our brave troops have died for that very purpose. 

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2 hours ago, Chum said:

I'd put it at least 2 in 3 given what I hear first hand.

I strongly feel this needs to be treated as separate and apart because stranger kidnappings are extremely rare while men mistreating women is a fairly routine occurrence. Men looking to distance themselves from that reality can quite eagerly try to lump unlike-things together, in order to muddy the waters.

You are right Chum, good catch! I was even wondering if my experience of my neighbor exposing himself to me, should be separate, especially when I read the opening topic heading. 

Edited by Tacenda
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1 hour ago, Mike Drop said:

I understand what you’re trying to explain rodheadlee. I also understand you don’t think anyone should be assaulted, man or woman. I think many Americans forget how good we have it here. In other countries women are being stoned to death. In Yemen, women are considered half a witness. In India, road safety rules don’t apply to women. In Saudi Arabia and Morocco, rape victims can be charged with a crime. In 32 countries a woman needs her husband’s permission to apply for a passport. In Israel, a woman needs her husband’s permission to get a divorce. In Nigeria, a husband can hit his wife under section 55 of the penal code to correct her. In Guinea, Sierra Leone, Gambia, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Sudan and Egypt, female genital mutilation is still being practiced. Hundreds of laws still exist that worldwide that discriminate against women. Western society and thankfully western men are leading the way in fighting for equality for all women. Many of our brave troops have died for that very purpose. 

What conflict did the US get into that was primarily about women’s rights?

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1 hour ago, Mike Drop said:

Western society and thankfully western men are leading the way in fighting for equality for all women. Many of our brave troops have died for that very purpose.

Can you point to countries where laws for women’s equality have been changed/evolved in positive directions and stayed that way due to Western influence and pressure?  Sincerely curious on how you see this.

Britain and the US had significant control and influence in much of the Middle East and other places, but imposed from the outside change there was not lasting IMO.

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I was even wondering if my experience of my neighbor exposing himself to me, should be separate,

It should not be separate. This is part of a list of tons of behavior that men think is okay - as in no one will hold them accountable.

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20 minutes ago, Chum said:

Sealand.

Wiki’s description makes Sealand sound more like a guy territorial game, financial loophole kind of thing rather than a leader in women’s rights.  Maybe when they get a female prime minister or Princess Regent in charge.

The Constitution is not very impressive:

 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitutions_of_1975_and_of_1989/Constitution_of_1989/The_Constitution_of_1989

Edited by Calm
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